Cleveland Indians to drop "Indians" from team name after 105 years
Comments
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You don't want to hurt the feelings of the sweater for sure.mcgruff10 said:I was in a curriculum meeting last week and we were sharing ideas with each other. I told my colleagues that I had my students create an Ugly sweater for the holidays that had inventions/contributions from an early river civilization in it. Kids voted on the best ugly sweater and that kid won a small prize. They absolutely loved the assignment.My supervisor informed me that you aren’t supposed to use the name Ugly sweater anymore because of the negative connotations. To me this has gone way too far, what is the end game?0 -
My son just sent this to me, pretty damn funny.
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
No, I was born and raised in Cleveland. Moved to Tampa for college and then to NOVA/Richmond. I don't like any DC teams. But I'm all in on Cleveland forever, and then Tampa.mcgruff10 said:0 -
Haha. Good call there! I've been to many games, that's for sure. It's a Giants club so sure. I like the Giants. Stadium is a dump but it's in a great area for night life. They need to rebuild.mcgruff10 said:0 -
"I don't dispute that it's cultural appropriation, but as Russel points out, is that, in and of itself, bad?"OnWis97 said:I don't dispute that it's cultural appropriation, but as Russel points out, is that, in and of itself, bad? It can be. It can be disrespectful. But it's not wrong in itself to take cues from elsewhere. Lines in fashion, music, and other cultural areas can (and sometimes should) be blurred. It gets tricky because I see some people doing some really cringeworthy things that, while probably not badly intended maliciously, might come off as disrespectful.
Sometimes it feels like that's where we are with teams. Was the name "Indians" meant to be disrespectful? Probably not. Maybe even so with R******s (as crazy as that seems), but they still come off that way and fans still react to it that way (see the tomahawk chop). Is Chief Wahoo "cultural appropriation?" Who cares? It was flat out disrespectful even if that's not how we saw it when it was designed in the 1940s. Calling that logo "cultural appropriation" is like calling the n-word "slang" (i.e., it's true but such an under-sell).
As for the names, it gets trickier. The very idea of naming yourself after a group of people that you are not is kind of odd. Then again, you could assign that to the Packers, Oilers, Brewers,* Cowboys, etc., but it comes off differently when it's a group that's been traditionally marginalized/bullied/shit on in this country. I don't care what the intentions were, a critical mass of fan behavior in response to these names has been pretty abhorrent.
These lines are difficult to draw, though. But in the long run, I suspect most fans of the team(s) will adjust. I think that's pretty much what's happened to college teams (Marquette, Miami OH, Syracuse), though the jury's still out at North Dakota...that fanbase is still pretty upset.
*In fairness, those of us old enough to remember Gorman Thomas may suspect that he was, in fact, a Brewer in his spare time.Interesting question well worth exploring!My own take is that it depends on what the culture being appropriated says about it. If most indigenous people in America are opposed to using their culture in sports names or white women hanging dream catchers from their rear view mirrors (sorry ladies- I've just seen that so many times), then it is not appropriate.But them what about John Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders incorporating eastern musical influences in their music? Well, Japan has treated both (especially Coltrane) as gods, so I would say in that case- regarding the Japanese influences- no problem! Being aware and sensitive to the reaction of others cultures is, I would say, the key.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?Your boos mean nothing to me, for I have seen what makes you cheer0 -
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
you don't see a difference between the treatment of Irish people and the treatment of Indigenous peoples?mcgruff10 said:
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?Your boos mean nothing to me, for I have seen what makes you cheer0 -
I don’t know where you got that from but again my question is, where does it all end? Again, what is wrong with the word “Chiefs”? Are people actually complaining about that? Is there mascot bad? I can totally see Chief Wahoo and the Redskins but Chiefs?HughFreakingDillon said:
you don't see a difference between the treatment of Irish people and the treatment of Indigenous peoples?mcgruff10 said:
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
The Irish were treated very badly in this country, especially the catholics. NINA ( no Irish need apply). Now I'm not saying it was worse or as bad as native Americans, but it was bad. My last name when my father came was Rosul, but he Americanized it to avoid discrimination.HughFreakingDillon said:
you don't see a difference between the treatment of Irish people and the treatment of Indigenous peoples?mcgruff10 said:
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?
Regarding team names, it's a harder line to draw.0 -
Should the police and fire departments stop using the word "chief?"Give Peas A Chance…0
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you don't know where I got that from? it's the entire point.mcgruff10 said:
I don’t know where you got that from but again my question is, where does it all end? Again, what is wrong with the word “Chiefs”? Are people actually complaining about that? Is there mascot bad? I can totally see Chief Wahoo and the Redskins but Chiefs?HughFreakingDillon said:
you don't see a difference between the treatment of Irish people and the treatment of Indigenous peoples?mcgruff10 said:
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?
you do know that a Chief is the leader of a Native American tribe, right? and that fans wear Native American head dresses to games, and that after a touchdown a person in Native American clothing mounts a horse named Warpaint (which they are retiring)?
did you think they were named after a chief of police? it's not just the name; it's the entire package that is usually the issue.Your boos mean nothing to me, for I have seen what makes you cheer0 -
See here's the issue. Your argument is reasonable except the bar of "most" people. That information that's impossible to obtain.brianlux said:
"I don't dispute that it's cultural appropriation, but as Russel points out, is that, in and of itself, bad?"OnWis97 said:I don't dispute that it's cultural appropriation, but as Russel points out, is that, in and of itself, bad? It can be. It can be disrespectful. But it's not wrong in itself to take cues from elsewhere. Lines in fashion, music, and other cultural areas can (and sometimes should) be blurred. It gets tricky because I see some people doing some really cringeworthy things that, while probably not badly intended maliciously, might come off as disrespectful.
Sometimes it feels like that's where we are with teams. Was the name "Indians" meant to be disrespectful? Probably not. Maybe even so with R******s (as crazy as that seems), but they still come off that way and fans still react to it that way (see the tomahawk chop). Is Chief Wahoo "cultural appropriation?" Who cares? It was flat out disrespectful even if that's not how we saw it when it was designed in the 1940s. Calling that logo "cultural appropriation" is like calling the n-word "slang" (i.e., it's true but such an under-sell).
As for the names, it gets trickier. The very idea of naming yourself after a group of people that you are not is kind of odd. Then again, you could assign that to the Packers, Oilers, Brewers,* Cowboys, etc., but it comes off differently when it's a group that's been traditionally marginalized/bullied/shit on in this country. I don't care what the intentions were, a critical mass of fan behavior in response to these names has been pretty abhorrent.
These lines are difficult to draw, though. But in the long run, I suspect most fans of the team(s) will adjust. I think that's pretty much what's happened to college teams (Marquette, Miami OH, Syracuse), though the jury's still out at North Dakota...that fanbase is still pretty upset.
*In fairness, those of us old enough to remember Gorman Thomas may suspect that he was, in fact, a Brewer in his spare time.Interesting question well worth exploring!My own take is that it depends on what the culture being appropriated says about it. If most indigenous people in America are opposed to using their culture in sports names or white women hanging dream catchers from their rear view mirrors (sorry ladies- I've just seen that so many times), then it is not appropriate.But them what about John Coltrane and Pharoah Sanders incorporating eastern musical influences in their music? Well, Japan has treated both (especially Coltrane) as gods, so I would say in that case- regarding the Japanese influences- no problem! Being aware and sensitive to the reaction of others cultures is, I would say, the key.
And what if 50.1% of Black women were against hoop earrings in white girls? What then? Do you outlaw it or just get to harass them in public?
I'm not picking on your argument, rather the silliness of it all, to me.0 -
Chief | The Canadian Encyclopedia
It looks like European settlers gave Indigenous peoples the term Chief...
Give Peas A Chance…0 -
I was sure it was Sioux /sMeltdown99 said:Chief | The Canadian Encyclopedia
It looks like European settlers gave Indigenous peoples the term Chief...0 -
No shit it s not named after the chief of police, but what is wrong with the word Chiefs in this context? The leader of a tribe? How is that offensive? Fans wear god damn cheese on their heads in Wisconsin.HughFreakingDillon said:
you don't know where I got that from? it's the entire point.mcgruff10 said:
I don’t know where you got that from but again my question is, where does it all end? Again, what is wrong with the word “Chiefs”? Are people actually complaining about that? Is there mascot bad? I can totally see Chief Wahoo and the Redskins but Chiefs?HughFreakingDillon said:
you don't see a difference between the treatment of Irish people and the treatment of Indigenous peoples?mcgruff10 said:
So the Boston Celtics are up next? Come on man, this is all becoming such a joke.HughFreakingDillon said:
cultural appropriation. it stops when the appropriation stops. no culture wants to be another culture's caricature or mascot.mcgruff10 said:
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?Meltdown99 said:Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
again, where does it end?
you do know that a Chief is the leader of a Native American tribe, right? and that fans wear Native American head dresses to games, and that after a touchdown a person in Native American clothing mounts a horse named Warpaint (which they are retiring)?
did you think they were named after a chief of police? it's not just the name; it's the entire package that is usually the issue.I m good with war paint retiring.But on the other note, not in the same league but Irish people were treated pretty shitty in this country.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0
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