Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
@OnWis97 what s the background on the Wild? I honestly have no clue. Side note: I always loved the north stars uniforms.
@mcgruff10 I think they fell prey to the need to be unique; i.e., you can't use a name anyone else has used. So it's a nod to the wilderness of Minnesota. It's not that we don't have said wilderness...lakes, rivers, prairies, animals, fishing, hunting, etc. It's that the name is just so, so stupid. I remember wondering how the heck they'd capture that in logo form...well, the absolutely nailed that in my opinion, but the name sucks. The below NHL puff piece discusses some other name options. Blue Ox (a Paul Bunyan reference), White Bears (we have a White Bear Lake), Freeze (talk about uninspired), Northern Lights (better than Wild), and Voyageurs (at least in part after a national park of the same name). Voyageurs is my favorite by a long shot.
And I grew up going to a couple of North Stars games a year. The NHL will never be to me what it was when I was a kid.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
What reservations have you visited not counting a casino? What were your experiences there?
Not too many reservations on the east coast that I can frequent regularly but I ve experienced reservations non casino in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
I've been to several reserves. Actually, there are many very close to the cottage country I frequent (visitor, not owner). they are dumps. and not the fault of the residents at all. the stories you hear about the corruption of the chiefs is staggering. just one look at everyone's homes on a reserve and then look at the home of the chief. it's no different than comparing the home of an evangelical minister and their parishioners. it's disgusting. but that's what happens when you throw money at anyone, regardless of race or background: they become corrupt.
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Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Can I gamble? Maybe see a show?
I don’t know can you? I’m not your fucking mom.
Jesus, what crawled up your ass today?
He's just mad because his favorite hockey team's nickname celebrates the taking if fertile land from the First Nation's people, who were removed and told their gods were false.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Can I gamble? Maybe see a show?
I don’t know can you? I’m not your fucking mom.
Jesus, what crawled up your ass today?
He asked me a fucking question. I answered. What’s your problem?
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Can I gamble? Maybe see a show?
I don’t know can you? I’m not your fucking mom.
Jesus, what crawled up your ass today?
He's just mad because his favorite hockey team's nickname celebrates the taking if fertile land from the First Nation's people, who were removed and told their gods were false.
That doesn’t even make sense…but maybe it does. Who knows. Hehehehe…
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
Can I gamble? Maybe see a show?
I don’t know can you? I’m not your fucking mom.
Jesus, what crawled up your ass today?
He's just mad because his favorite hockey team's nickname celebrates the taking if fertile land from the First Nation's people, who were removed and told their gods were false.
That doesn’t even make sense…but maybe it does. Who knows. Hehehehe…
Oh it definitely makes sense.
But I'm just fucking with you. I don't care about their name.
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
I've been to several reserves. Actually, there are many very close to the cottage country I frequent (visitor, not owner). they are dumps. and not the fault of the residents at all. the stories you hear about the corruption of the chiefs is staggering. just one look at everyone's homes on a reserve and then look at the home of the chief. it's no different than comparing the home of an evangelical minister and their parishioners. it's disgusting. but that's what happens when you throw money at anyone, regardless of race or background: they become corrupt.
There is 5 reserves near me. 2 are definitely rough, the 3 closet ones are not that bad…but the reserves around here are small. Of course the reserves around here have lots of weed and smoke shacks, and that’s what they are is shacks…I agree, on many reserves the chiefs line their po keys. I believe Canada spends around 30 billion on indigenous affairs. I think we 1st need to get clean drinking water to all reserves and insure the northern reserves have food security and go from there.
Give Peas A Chance…
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,687
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,703
Yet the Kansas City Chiefs refuse to change their name.
Tell me why the Chiefs should change their name. What is insulting about the Chiefs?
again, where does it end?
The word "Chief" technically refers to the leader of any group of people but, as well all likely well known, the way it is used, especially as a sports name, is related to Native Americans. And ask a Native American what he or she thinks of using the word "Chief" that way and they are likely to respond, "So do you use the work n***** to describe something related to a black person?" They really are similar words that way. It's REALLY not cool to refer to an Indian as "chief" because historically it has been similar to calling a black person "n*****".
Chief and the N word are definitely not equals, not even close.
So the world will be at peace when we get rid of the Braves, Chiefs, Seminoles, Vikings, Angels, Devils, Blackhawks...who am I missing?
Padres…gots to go.
Seriously where does it stop? Side note, I would love to see a game in San Diego.
I'm in SD right now, 5 min from the stadium. Was going to go tonight to see the A's but my son feels like crap after eating two doubles from In n Out (who knew that was a bad idea?), so we're going Thursday against the Rockies. It's a nice park.
Two doubles?! Wow. Never been to San Diego, heard it is gorgeous. Have fun!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
Being racist towards indigenous seems to be quite acceptable in our society...looks like it's acceptable here as well. People crow about indigenous people's living off the taxpayer and then when they try to create economic opportunities and jobs for their people's also a problem...
It comes down to a private business deciding to change their name. It was their choice based on business.
If I had it my way, I would just leave everything alone. I loved the indians logo, grew up rooting for it. I understand why they chose to change it, and it isnt the end of the universe. If we go down the slippery slope and someone called the "guardians' get insulted, then they can change that name too if they want.
But the Indians were tired of fighting this, which has been going on for 15+ years and giving them bad press. Im sure MLB put some pressure on them to get rid of Chief Wahoo and I believe they dangled the 2019 ASG as a condition.
So after Wahoo was gone, you had a Cleveland "Indians" team who could not form an identity at all, and would likely never be able to. When they announced Wahoo was gone, I was actually in support of changing the name because I knew that was next down the line, and also "Indians" with the drag Block C Cap logo was a terrible purgatory for branding.
It comes down to a private business deciding to change their name. It was their choice based on business.
If I had it my way, I would just leave everything alone. I loved the indians logo, grew up rooting for it. I understand why they chose to change it, and it isnt the end of the universe. If we go down the slippery slope and someone called the "guardians' get insulted, then they can change that name too if they want.
But the Indians were tired of fighting this, which has been going on for 15+ years and giving them bad press. Im sure MLB put some pressure on them to get rid of Chief Wahoo and I believe they dangled the 2019 ASG as a condition.
So after Wahoo was gone, you had a Cleveland "Indians" team who could not form an identity at all, and would likely never be able to. When they announced Wahoo was gone, I was actually in support of changing the name because I knew that was next down the line, and also "Indians" with the drag Block C Cap logo was a terrible purgatory for branding.
I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name. Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little.
To me people are always going to complain about something. What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports? We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?
I think there's a big difference. I actually think natural disaster names are kind of stupid. Not "Minnesota Wild" stupid, but stupid. I don't think they need to be eliminated/banned, and while I am sure you could dig up some kook that does, that's got to be a pretty rare opinion. Similarly, Minnesota Wild is no better of a name than Minnesota Desk Chairs would be...in either case, the public pressure a team would face to get rid of it would be the same as when the 49ers dropped their one-day helmet. Not offensive; just plain bad.
I know these lines can be difficult to draw. R******s is a no-brainer. Some of the other things are grayer. Wahoo, to me anyway, is a no-brainer but some other stuff is grayer. As for Arrowhead (the logo or the stadium), I'm not fan. But any public pressure is not going to come from me either. Worse than Wild? Yes, at the very least in terms of cultural impacts/sensitivity.
I am sure people whined about political correctness in Pekin, IL, 1981, too (Warning; racial slur pops up front and center): Link.
As a long time 49er fan, I agree with the helmet being hideous. I know someone who lived in Pekin after the name change, and you are correct, there were still people complaining 15 or so years after it was changed. There are probably still some.
I used to know this guy in college who was from Pekin, IL. His favorite joke:
How do you spell Pekin? PeKKKin
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
very well said.
I am consistently disappointed and somewhat confused that my liberal-leaning parents are constantly up in arms at these progressions, yet my wife's much older and VERY catholic/conservative parents are "live and let live".
Thanks for the blackface story. When the Trudeau scandal first came to light, I admitted I had no idea what blackface was, never mind acknowledging it was offensive. People jumped down my throat "HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW" and even going so far as to call me stupid and a liar. I am just not exposed to much black culture/issues (example: in a company of 200 people, there isn't one single black person; we have multiple asian/indigenous/philipino/etc, but no black people). I have had a few close black friends over the years, but these things never came up in discussion.
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
very well said.
I am consistently disappointed and somewhat confused that my liberal-leaning parents are constantly up in arms at these progressions, yet my wife's much older and VERY catholic/conservative parents are "live and let live".
Thanks for the blackface story. When the Trudeau scandal first came to light, I admitted I had no idea what blackface was, never mind acknowledging it was offensive. People jumped down my throat "HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW" and even going so far as to call me stupid and a liar. I am just not exposed to much black culture/issues (example: in a company of 200 people, there isn't one single black person; we have multiple asian/indigenous/philipino/etc, but no black people). I have had a few close black friends over the years, but these things never came up in discussion.
How dare you not know a thing you were never shown or taught?! lol
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
Which is understandable.. I've never been in that position. All of my teams are birds or fictional things lol. Where it gets fascinating is when you have folks who really have no reason to be bothered by it getting absolutely 'triggered.' This occurs on the left and the right. I don't know if its the internet or mainstream media... but there seems to be scary amount of people who just wait for a reason to get pissed off.
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
Which is understandable.. I've never been in that position. All of my teams are birds or fictional things lol. Where it gets fascinating is when you have folks who really have no reason to be bothered by it getting absolutely 'triggered.' This occurs on the left and the right. I don't know if its the internet or mainstream media... but there seems to be scary amount of people who just wait for a reason to get pissed off.
Trying to figure out how your mentality is any different from this....
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
Which is understandable.. I've never been in that position. All of my teams are birds or fictional things lol. Where it gets fascinating is when you have folks who really have no reason to be bothered by it getting absolutely 'triggered.' This occurs on the left and the right. I don't know if its the internet or mainstream media... but there seems to be scary amount of people who just wait for a reason to get pissed off.
Trying to figure out how your mentality is any different from this....
I believe you are misconstruing... or perhaps I didn't explain. It's not about 'giving a shit' or not... it's being able to relate. Take for example me trying to explain to my daughter why taking Johnny's toys is bad. I would say "You wouldn't like it if Johnny took your toys now would you?" That's an easy way to draw a parallel and have someone relate to why their bad thing is bad. Because they wouldn't want it done to themselves. In this case, if my daughter doesn't have toys... or anything that she values quite like toys... it becomes a difficult thing to correct or explain.
If I'm trying to make an argument about social issues for example, I can't use that same kind of example is what I'm saying because I'm white. To quote Atticus Finch from To Kill A Mockingbird:
"if you learn a simple trick, Scout, you’ll get along a lot better with all kinds of folks. You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
^^ This is easier said than done. I can only 'consider' something from a black person's point of view or a woman's point of view, but I cannot relate to it at all having never actually experienced anything.
EDIT: with regards to what MayDay is saying about his sports team... I believe we are both sports fans. So we equal there. But in the context of this debate over the names of teams... he would be affected if his team is affected. Same goes with someone who has maybe played for a particular team. It's all relative.
Post edited by Parksy on
Toronto 2000
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
Which is understandable.. I've never been in that position. All of my teams are birds or fictional things lol. Where it gets fascinating is when you have folks who really have no reason to be bothered by it getting absolutely 'triggered.' This occurs on the left and the right. I don't know if its the internet or mainstream media... but there seems to be scary amount of people who just wait for a reason to get pissed off.
Trying to figure out how your mentality is any different from this....
Saw this on the news last night. Guy didn't want the vaccine and now his wife is encouraging all of his friends to get vaccinated. She said that he told her that he would get the shot right before they ventilated him.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
Comments
I think they fell prey to the need to be unique; i.e., you can't use a name anyone else has used. So it's a nod to the wilderness of Minnesota. It's not that we don't have said wilderness...lakes, rivers, prairies, animals, fishing, hunting, etc. It's that the name is just so, so stupid. I remember wondering how the heck they'd capture that in logo form...well, the absolutely nailed that in my opinion, but the name sucks. The below NHL puff piece discusses some other name options. Blue Ox (a Paul Bunyan reference), White Bears (we have a White Bear Lake), Freeze (talk about uninspired), Northern Lights (better than Wild), and Voyageurs (at least in part after a national park of the same name). Voyageurs is my favorite by a long shot.
https://www.nhl.com/wild/news/lets-go-white-bears/c-552722
And I grew up going to a couple of North Stars games a year. The NHL will never be to me what it was when I was a kid.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
www.headstonesband.com
But I'm just fucking with you. I don't care about their name.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Its ridiculous....
If I had it my way, I would just leave everything alone. I loved the indians logo, grew up rooting for it. I understand why they chose to change it, and it isnt the end of the universe. If we go down the slippery slope and someone called the "guardians' get insulted, then they can change that name too if they want.
But the Indians were tired of fighting this, which has been going on for 15+ years and giving them bad press. Im sure MLB put some pressure on them to get rid of Chief Wahoo and I believe they dangled the 2019 ASG as a condition.
So after Wahoo was gone, you had a Cleveland "Indians" team who could not form an identity at all, and would likely never be able to. When they announced Wahoo was gone, I was actually in support of changing the name because I knew that was next down the line, and also "Indians" with the drag Block C Cap logo was a terrible purgatory for branding.
www.headstonesband.com
I used to know this guy in college who was from Pekin, IL.
His favorite joke:
How do you spell Pekin?
PeKKKin
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
I am consistently disappointed and somewhat confused that my liberal-leaning parents are constantly up in arms at these progressions, yet my wife's much older and VERY catholic/conservative parents are "live and let live".
Thanks for the blackface story. When the Trudeau scandal first came to light, I admitted I had no idea what blackface was, never mind acknowledging it was offensive. People jumped down my throat "HOW COULD YOU NOT KNOW" and even going so far as to call me stupid and a liar. I am just not exposed to much black culture/issues (example: in a company of 200 people, there isn't one single black person; we have multiple asian/indigenous/philipino/etc, but no black people). I have had a few close black friends over the years, but these things never came up in discussion.
www.headstonesband.com
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Trying to figure out how your mentality is any different from this....
If I'm trying to make an argument about social issues for example, I can't use that same kind of example is what I'm saying because I'm white. To quote Atticus Finch from To Kill A Mockingbird:
"if you learn a simple trick, Scout, you’ll get along a lot better with all kinds of folks. You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
^^ This is easier said than done. I can only 'consider' something from a black person's point of view or a woman's point of view, but I cannot relate to it at all having never actually experienced anything.
EDIT: with regards to what MayDay is saying about his sports team... I believe we are both sports fans. So we equal there. But in the context of this debate over the names of teams... he would be affected if his team is affected. Same goes with someone who has maybe played for a particular team. It's all relative.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Saw this on the news last night. Guy didn't want the vaccine and now his wife is encouraging all of his friends to get vaccinated. She said that he told her that he would get the shot right before they ventilated him.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville