Cleveland Indians to drop "Indians" from team name after 105 years

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

When I was in the Boy Scouts I was in Order of the Arrow.  It was a service organization that emphasized a lot of Native American traditions and beliefs.  I signed up to be a traditional dancer.  I made my own costume, dressed up and performed for various troops and other organizations.  I learned a lot, it was fun and very respectful.  I don’t see anything wrong with what bartle or myself did.  

were any native americans there to teach you the hows and whys? or just a bunch of white guys who thought they knew? 

white children should not be performing traditional native american dances. period. 

you may believe it's being respectful. you may believe it's "paying homage". these traditions and dances are sacred to them. we don't just get to co-opt these traditions in the name of entertainment. 

Meltdown99

Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...

Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???

mrussel1

Meltdown99 said:

Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...

Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???

Habs

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...

Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???

Habs

BWAHAHAHAHA

Gern Blansten

Meltdown99 said:

Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...

Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???

Not sure who you are directing that at but in my opinion some of the names are respectful.  I don't think Braves, Chiefs, Blackhawks, etc., are disrespectful or racist.  I realize that the Indians were treated horribly but I think modern day Americans realize that.

To me it is similar to Minutemen, Patriots, Musketeers, Pirates, etc.

Of course I could be horribly off base

edit: and clearly the tomahawk chop or chanting is inappropriate

mcgruff10

HughFreakingDillon said:

mcgruff10 said:

When I was in the Boy Scouts I was in Order of the Arrow.  It was a service organization that emphasized a lot of Native American traditions and beliefs.  I signed up to be a traditional dancer.  I made my own costume, dressed up and performed for various troops and other organizations.  I learned a lot, it was fun and very respectful.  I don’t see anything wrong with what bartle or myself did.  

were any native americans there to teach you the hows and whys? or just a bunch of white guys who thought they knew? 

white children should not be performing traditional native american dances. period. 

you may believe it's being respectful. you may believe it's "paying homage". these traditions and dances are sacred to them. we don't just get to co-opt these traditions in the name of entertainment. 

If we were being respectful and authentic then why not?  Like I said, we had Native Americans tell us that it was cool that we were showcasing their culture and traditions.  Did a native american teach us?  no.  One of my kids like to break dance, should I yell him to stop since a black person didn't teach him?

Meltdown99

Gern Blansten said:

Meltdown99 said:

Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...

Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???

Not sure who you are directing that at but in my opinion some of the names are respectful.  I don't think Braves, Chiefs, Blackhawks, etc., are disrespectful or racist.  I realize that the Indians were treated horribly but I think modern day Americans realize that.

To me it is similar to Minutemen, Patriots, Musketeers, Pirates, etc.

Of course I could be horribly off base

edit: and clearly the tomahawk chop or chanting is inappropriate

Read some of the comments here...

I do not know much about those other groups you mentioned...but the settlers committed one of the world's largest genocides in the Americas and yet these same settlers made it a point of mocking indigenous peoples.  They are just sports teams...nothing more.  You can find a nonoffensive name and mascot...

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mcgruff10 said:

When I was in the Boy Scouts I was in Order of the Arrow.  It was a service organization that emphasized a lot of Native American traditions and beliefs.  I signed up to be a traditional dancer.  I made my own costume, dressed up and performed for various troops and other organizations.  I learned a lot, it was fun and very respectful.  I don’t see anything wrong with what bartle or myself did.  

were any native americans there to teach you the hows and whys? or just a bunch of white guys who thought they knew? 

white children should not be performing traditional native american dances. period. 

you may believe it's being respectful. you may believe it's "paying homage". these traditions and dances are sacred to them. we don't just get to co-opt these traditions in the name of entertainment. 

If we were being respectful and authentic then why not?  Like I said, we had Native Americans tell us that it was cool that we were showcasing their culture and traditions.  Did a native american teach us?  no.  One of my kids like to break dance, should I yell him to stop since a black person didn't teach him?

breakdancing, in my opinion, doesn't fall under ceremonial/traditional dance of Africans. you can try to cherry pick any singular type of example, but the crux of it is, there is no "one size fits all" answer to prove your point. nor is there to mine. 

turn this around for a second. imagine if history were the opposite. native americans travelled across the ocean in search of, say, brazil. they landed in europe instead. but they didn't give two shits. 400 years later they still called them brazilians. set up Brazilian Residential Schools to indoctrinate them into the native american way of life, murdering thousands of them in the process.

they made sports teams that mocked christianity, with teams called The Bishops or The Popes and had images of them raping boys in their sleep and murdering all those who opposed the church, the fans in the stands holding up bible replicas over their heads, calling to the "football gods" to help their team win. bringing crosses and throwing holy water on opposing teams/fans. 

sure, The Bishops on its own isn't offensive. But the connotation would be. I highly doubt you'd be so blasé saying "it's just a name". 

dankind

https://youtu.be/MrYVgxwyQ9s

You're welcome!

mcgruff10

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

no one is a big "what if" person if it blows up their narrative.

this is just a ludicrous comment, dude. and kind of offensive as to the actual plight of real people at the hands of other real people. 

tbergs

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

I don't quite get the concerns over changing other names or practices if as a society/culture that is where things lead. The question of, "Where does it stop/end?" seems pointless because it stops/ends when we as a society decide it does. Habits and routines typically become bad if they remain in place too long. In most cases, the only issue with the change is that people don't like the next thing because it breaks from the tradition they have known. In 20 years, no one will give a shit they went from Indians to Guardians besides the die hards and that will eventually pass when they pass. Sports franchises move and change names all the time and I can't recall a single time when anyone was like, "Hey, what a great name they chose!" It's mostly complaining by the fanbase or a half hearted acceptance of "That's not too bad."

If something becomes offensive or culturally outdated, it still seems to take decades for a change to happen anyway, unless it leads to violence or mass public outcry. I mean, how long did we put up with Confederate flags before it started to become more of a negative connotation? Yet, they still aren't universally decried.

Just the things I can think of from the 80's and 90's that have become taboo and uncouth makes me cringe on what was allowed in my brief lifetime. That clip from Can't Buy Me Love (A movie I loved as a kid) alone shows how poorly some things age.

OnWis97

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

I think there's a big difference. I actually think natural disaster names are kind of stupid. Not "Minnesota Wild" stupid, but stupid. I don't think they need to be eliminated/banned, and while I am sure you could dig up some kook that does, that's got to be a pretty rare opinion.  Similarly, Minnesota Wild is no better of a name than Minnesota Desk Chairs would be...in either case, the public pressure a team would face to get rid of it would be the same as when the 49ers dropped their one-day helmet. Not offensive; just plain bad.

I know these lines can be difficult to draw. R******s is a no-brainer. Some of the other things are grayer. Wahoo, to me anyway, is a no-brainer but some other stuff is grayer. As for Arrowhead (the logo or the stadium), I'm not  fan. But any public pressure is not going to come from me either. Worse than Wild? Yes, at the very least in terms of cultural impacts/sensitivity.

I am sure people whined about political correctness in Pekin, IL, 1981, too (Warning; racial slur pops up front and center): Link.

Gern Blansten

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

The more I think about it I do think that calling yourselves "Chiefs" or "Braves" is kind of ridiculous if you don't have a fitting mascot.  Best to get rid of them all together.  I hate to think of the Blackhawks changing their name but it just seems inevitable.

mcgruff10

Gern Blansten said:

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

The more I think about it I do think that calling yourselves "Chiefs" or "Braves" is kind of ridiculous if you don't have a fitting mascot.  Best to get rid of them all together.  I hate to think of the Blackhawks changing their name but it just seems inevitable.

I personally don’t see it as racist, I almost look it as an honor to have a sports team named after your heritage.  Maybe they could keep the name but make it more updated.  

We just went through this in the town I live in, we were the Howell running rebels.  Mascot was an old csa soldier lol.  They updated the mascot but kept the name. No harm no foul.  

mcgruff10

@OnWis97 what s the background on the Wild?  I honestly have no clue. Side note: I always loved the north stars uniforms.  

Gern Blansten

mcgruff10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

The more I think about it I do think that calling yourselves "Chiefs" or "Braves" is kind of ridiculous if you don't have a fitting mascot.  Best to get rid of them all together.  I hate to think of the Blackhawks changing their name but it just seems inevitable.

I personally don’t see it as racist, I almost look it as an honor to have a sports team named after your heritage.  Maybe they could keep the name but make it more updated.  

We just went through this in the town I live in, we were the Howell running rebels.  Mascot was an old csa soldier lol.  They updated the mascot but kept the name. No harm no foul.  

Comparing rebels to Indians is not in the same universe. 

mcgruff10

Gern Blansten said:

mcgruff10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

The more I think about it I do think that calling yourselves "Chiefs" or "Braves" is kind of ridiculous if you don't have a fitting mascot.  Best to get rid of them all together.  I hate to think of the Blackhawks changing their name but it just seems inevitable.

I personally don’t see it as racist, I almost look it as an honor to have a sports team named after your heritage.  Maybe they could keep the name but make it more updated.  

We just went through this in the town I live in, we were the Howell running rebels.  Mascot was an old csa soldier lol.  They updated the mascot but kept the name. No harm no foul.  

Comparing rebels to Indians is not in the same universe. 

I m not saying it was equal, it was just an example. However “rebels” have been making headlines a lot in the past two years with regard to statues and renaming military bases.

Have their been sit downs between both sides to try to find common ground? (NFL owners and native Americans)

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

The more I think about it I do think that calling yourselves "Chiefs" or "Braves" is kind of ridiculous if you don't have a fitting mascot.  Best to get rid of them all together.  I hate to think of the Blackhawks changing their name but it just seems inevitable.

I personally don’t see it as racist, I almost look it as an honor to have a sports team named after your heritage.  Maybe they could keep the name but make it more updated.  

We just went through this in the town I live in, we were the Howell running rebels.  Mascot was an old csa soldier lol.  They updated the mascot but kept the name. No harm no foul.  

that's the whitewashing of it we've all been convinced to believe. the "heritage" we're "honouring" is that of a primitive, savage warrior, animal, sub-human. while historically some of that may be correct (as it was for all of us, not just aboriginals), it doesn't positively or accurately reflect their people of today. 

JeBurkhardt

OnWis97 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I m not a big “what if” person. Again, ok with the Chiefs getting rid of their mascot but no problem with keeping the team and stadium name.  Getting rid of the Redskins and Indians was a good call but the rest just leave alone. Maybe update/change the mascot a little. 

To me people are always going to complain about something.  What is next after We get rid of all Native American References in sports?  We gonna go after the Miami Hurricanes because the word hurricane has a negative connotation and could be viewed as scary?

I think there's a big difference. I actually think natural disaster names are kind of stupid. Not "Minnesota Wild" stupid, but stupid. I don't think they need to be eliminated/banned, and while I am sure you could dig up some kook that does, that's got to be a pretty rare opinion.  Similarly, Minnesota Wild is no better of a name than Minnesota Desk Chairs would be...in either case, the public pressure a team would face to get rid of it would be the same as when the 49ers dropped their one-day helmet. Not offensive; just plain bad.

I know these lines can be difficult to draw. R******s is a no-brainer. Some of the other things are grayer. Wahoo, to me anyway, is a no-brainer but some other stuff is grayer. As for Arrowhead (the logo or the stadium), I'm not  fan. But any public pressure is not going to come from me either. Worse than Wild? Yes, at the very least in terms of cultural impacts/sensitivity.

I am sure people whined about political correctness in Pekin, IL, 1981, too (Warning; racial slur pops up front and center): Link.

As a long time 49er fan, I agree with the helmet being hideous. I know someone who lived in Pekin after the name change, and you are correct, there were still people complaining 15 or so years after it was changed. There are probably still some.