It's comical to me sometimes... the 'cancel culture' debate.
People get offended and up in arms about other people who are offended and up in arms.
"Please change that because it bothers me." vs. "Don't change that, or it will bother me."
Context and understanding often gets drowned out by anger and hostility. When trying to establish a judgement or opinion about it, I try to put myself in the offended person's shoes and then I also like to look at any hypocritical thinking taking place. Problem that I often have with that is that it's difficult for me to relate because I'm a white dude. I do the best I can though.
If you're the kind of person who believes in 'freedoms' and doing what you want with what you own... then complaining about what a sports organization does with their team seems silly. They don't owe you anything. They can do what they want for their own reasons. If you really don't like it, don't support them.
Sometimes I really don't understand why certain things bother certain people. But beyond the scope of understanding WHY it bothers certain people, I default to just understanding that it DOES bother certain people. Personal story here... years ago I did "blackface" for a skit, before I had any idea blackface was even a thing that existed let alone that it might bother people. It was a video that was posted and a lot of people enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious. No one... not one person informed me it was even close to a bad thing. Important to note here... I generally have only white friends and family. Years later I was discussing the Trudeau blackface scandal with a friend and I brought up my story and my friend asked "knowing then what you know now, would you still do it?" My simple answer was "No." To this day I don't think what I did was particularly bad and it certainly didn't come from a racist or malicious intention on my part. But it comes down to an easy choice; would it have negatively impacted or bothered me in any way if I didn't do blackface? Nope, not at all. I would have found something else to satirize, I would have done a different skit, and my life would go on unaffected. Why would I choose something that could possibly bother someone over something that I know wouldn't? It makes no difference other than offending someone.
Knowing what I know now if ten skits were offered and I purposefully chose the one that I now know would offend someone, I would be an asshole. Even if I didn't understand or agree that it should offend, just knowing that it does offend and choosing it is an asshole move considering alternatives existed that wouldn't offend anyone.
Similarly, if a sports organization was choosing a team name/mascot and they purposefully chose one that they knew might offend anyone, they'd be assholes especially considering that in the world of sports names hundreds of alternatives exist.
If the Seattle Kraken decided to go with Seattle Indians in 2021 knowing the impact, I think people would scratch their heads and there would be backlash. Seems weird that a baseball team changing their name FROM Indians would cause a similar backlash in defense of the name.
In Canada we changed our anthem... OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM... to be more inclusive. When I heard about the change instead of getting all huffy and angry and pissed off and raging about traditions... I said: "Hmm.. ok." I still sing it, I still love it, I'm still proud of it... and now, more people can be proud of it. Seems like a win to me.
People get 'tribal' (pun intended) over sports names, and it is jarring when a team you may have been rooting for for decades, with 100+ years of history changes their branding overnight. Pro/Major sports teams typically do not change since the early 20th century.
Add in the extremely divisive nature of every single thing in our society at this point (like a ticket out of a pandemic is rejected/politicized).
I get it. Already, I go in my closet and choose not to wear my Chief Wahoo polo because it appears offensive. Once it isn't normalized, it takes on a different light.
I kind of stand in the middle on the entire 'outrage' angle that many on the Left seem to have. I think it goes too far. Way too far. But the right draws a line too far the other way and thinks it is the 1800s. In this application, I get it.
Which is understandable.. I've never been in that position. All of my teams are birds or fictional things lol. Where it gets fascinating is when you have folks who really have no reason to be bothered by it getting absolutely 'triggered.' This occurs on the left and the right. I don't know if its the internet or mainstream media... but there seems to be scary amount of people who just wait for a reason to get pissed off.
Trying to figure out how your mentality is any different from this....
I believe you are misconstruing... or perhaps I didn't explain. It's not about 'giving a shit' or not... it's being able to relate. Take for example me trying to explain to my daughter why taking Johnny's toys is bad. I would say "You wouldn't like it if Johnny took your toys now would you?" That's an easy way to draw a parallel and have someone relate to why their bad thing is bad. Because they wouldn't want it done to themselves. In this case, if my daughter doesn't have toys... or anything that she values quite like toys... it becomes a difficult thing to correct or explain.
If I'm trying to make an argument about social issues for example, I can't use that same kind of example is what I'm saying because I'm white. To quote Atticus Finch from To Kill A Mockingbird:
"if you learn a simple trick, Scout, you’ll get along a lot better with all kinds of folks. You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
^^ This is easier said than done. I can only 'consider' something from a black person's point of view or a woman's point of view, but I cannot relate to it at all having never actually experienced anything.
EDIT: with regards to what MayDay is saying about his sports team... I believe we are both sports fans. So we equal there. But in the context of this debate over the names of teams... he would be affected if his team is affected. Same goes with someone who has maybe played for a particular team. It's all relative.
This is helpful.
At the risk of boiling the explanation down to a soundbite, it's the difference between:
'I didn't understand at the time that what I did was wrong' and 'I understood what I was doing and did it anyways'
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,871
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
Being racist towards indigenous seems to be quite acceptable in our society...looks like it's acceptable here as well. People crow about indigenous people's living off the taxpayer and then when they try to create economic opportunities and jobs for their people's also a problem...
Its ridiculous....
Wow, no shit! Fucking ridiculous.
I can't believe some here only see this from an "outrage culture" stance (so "hip" to call it that, I guess) and still refuse to look at it from the indigenous persons disgust over their culture being used (i.e. appropriated) the way it has. That's so ass-backwards a way to see it, it's not even funny.
Yeah, racism towards indigenous people seems to get a pass from some here and that fucking boggles my mind. Sad, really sad.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
Being racist towards indigenous seems to be quite acceptable in our society...looks like it's acceptable here as well. People crow about indigenous people's living off the taxpayer and then when they try to create economic opportunities and jobs for their people's also a problem...
Its ridiculous....
Wow, no shit! Fucking ridiculous.
I can't believe some here only see this from an "outrage culture" stance (so "hip" to call it that, I guess) and still refuse to look at it from the indigenous persons disgust over their culture being used (i.e. appropriated) the way it has. That's so ass-backwards a way to see it, it's not even funny.
Yeah, racism towards indigenous people seems to get a pass from some here and that fucking boggles my mind. Sad, really sad.
Come on you’re way smarter than that….people can’t only be racist against one group, they either are racist or they’re not. It’s very telling. Silence is also very telling.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
Being racist towards indigenous seems to be quite acceptable in our society...looks like it's acceptable here as well. People crow about indigenous people's living off the taxpayer and then when they try to create economic opportunities and jobs for their people's also a problem...
Its ridiculous....
Wow, no shit! Fucking ridiculous.
I can't believe some here only see this from an "outrage culture" stance (so "hip" to call it that, I guess) and still refuse to look at it from the indigenous persons disgust over their culture being used (i.e. appropriated) the way it has. That's so ass-backwards a way to see it, it's not even funny.
Yeah, racism towards indigenous people seems to get a pass from some here and that fucking boggles my mind. Sad, really sad.
Come on you’re way smarter than that….people can’t only be racist against one group, they either are racist or they’re not. It’s very telling. Silence is also very telling.
Don't overestimate my intelligence, lol!
I see your point but I just don't understand why it is that some people seem to be anti-racist yet are very soft on racist attitudes towards indigenous people. I've know people who are not on these boards who are that way. One in particular who is very outspoken about being pro- Black Lives Matter and yet seems to totally dismiss Native American racism issues.
And that's the sense I get from some here. I can't fathom that!
Augh! I've got to get off of here and clear my head. Catch y'all later.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land… i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
I don’t know nearly enough to comment except to say I believe this is/was their land. And I have to wonder if (hope) they’re ok without us around anyway. With how stupid fucking crazy this country is why wouldn’t you want to stay segregated.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
OK, I've probably said enough... maybe too much. One last thought though: If we don't care about racism in team sport names, why no this one:
THE CLEVELAND CRACKERS
Get out those Tiki torches, sports fans, and fight, fight, fight!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,871
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
@OnWis97 what s the background on the Wild? I honestly have no clue. Side note: I always loved the north stars uniforms.
@mcgruff10 I think they fell prey to the need to be unique; i.e., you can't use a name anyone else has used. So it's a nod to the wilderness of Minnesota. It's not that we don't have said wilderness...lakes, rivers, prairies, animals, fishing, hunting, etc. It's that the name is just so, so stupid. I remember wondering how the heck they'd capture that in logo form...well, the absolutely nailed that in my opinion, but the name sucks. The below NHL puff piece discusses some other name options. Blue Ox (a Paul Bunyan reference), White Bears (we have a White Bear Lake), Freeze (talk about uninspired), Northern Lights (better than Wild), and Voyageurs (at least in part after a national park of the same name). Voyageurs is my favorite by a long shot.
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Cracker was used way before Black folks picked it up. I believe the Brits may have coined it.
I was born and raised a Florida cracker.
I always thought it was for the white folk that moved livestock by cracking a whip.
Yes, if I recall correctly, I believe that’s the traditional Florida way. We only had five acres and never more than three dairy cows, so we never had to resort to such nonsense. We did have a whip, though, and it hung by the door like a Florida cracker wreath because I guess that’s what you did.
Edit: That’s one team name that would be perfect regionally but not so much elsewhere: the Florida Crackers.
But what would the mascot be? A face-eating zombie on bath salts?
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Cracker was used way before Black folks picked it up. I believe the Brits may have coined it.
I was born and raised a Florida cracker.
I always thought it was for the white folk that moved livestock by cracking a whip.
Yes, if I recall correctly, I believe that’s the traditional Florida way. We only had five acres and never more than three dairy cows, so we never had to resort to such nonsense. We did have a whip, though, and it hung by the door like a Florida cracker wreath because I guess that’s what you did.
Edit: That’s one team name that would be perfect regionally but not so much elsewhere: the Florida Crackers.
But what would the mascot be? A face-eating zombie on bath salts?
Geez, were you in Ocala area or something? I always hated traveling through the center of the state.
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Cracker was used way before Black folks picked it up. I believe the Brits may have coined it.
I was born and raised a Florida cracker.
I always thought it was for the white folk that moved livestock by cracking a whip.
'livestock'?
white slave foremen in the antebellum South were called "crackers" owing to their practice of "cracking the whip" to drive and punish slaves
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Cracker was used way before Black folks picked it up. I believe the Brits may have coined it.
I was born and raised a Florida cracker.
I always thought it was for the white folk that moved livestock by cracking a whip.
Yes, if I recall correctly, I believe that’s the traditional Florida way. We only had five acres and never more than three dairy cows, so we never had to resort to such nonsense. We did have a whip, though, and it hung by the door like a Florida cracker wreath because I guess that’s what you did.
Edit: That’s one team name that would be perfect regionally but not so much elsewhere: the Florida Crackers.
But what would the mascot be? A face-eating zombie on bath salts?
Geez, were you in Ocala area or something? I always hated traveling through the center of the state.
The farm was in Manatee County.
And drag racing with your buddies through Ocala State Forest was a goddamn rite of passage when I was growing up.
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
It's a racial slur.
If you dig into the word it originates from 17th century and it was never a word that was used politely. It morphed over the years to be a belittling word to white people.
If you ask most white people about the term I don't think you'd find many people take offense to it though?
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Cracker was used way before Black folks picked it up. I believe the Brits may have coined it.
I was born and raised a Florida cracker.
I always thought it was for the white folk that moved livestock by cracking a whip.
Yes, if I recall correctly, I believe that’s the traditional Florida way. We only had five acres and never more than three dairy cows, so we never had to resort to such nonsense. We did have a whip, though, and it hung by the door like a Florida cracker wreath because I guess that’s what you did.
Edit: That’s one team name that would be perfect regionally but not so much elsewhere: the Florida Crackers.
But what would the mascot be? A face-eating zombie on bath salts?
Geez, were you in Ocala area or something? I always hated traveling through the center of the state.
I lived out in Ocala for a year. Horse country. Everyone I met raised horses.
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
It's a racial slur.
If you dig into the word it originates from 17th century and it was never a word that was used politely. It morphed over the years to be a belittling word to white people.
If you ask most white people about the term I don't think you'd find many people take offense to it though?
Amazing that you guys are so opposed to racism except where it concerns the use of Indigenous names, images, and mascots...
Maybe you are only opposed to racism if it suits some of your agendas???
I was thinking about this yesterday. On some level, it's great to see a resurgent growing awareness of racial issues. (I say "resurgent" because racism was a major topic back by a lot of activism in the 1960's and somewhat in the 70's but then it all seemed to die down a bit in the 80's and 90's and has resurfaced in recent years). The issue of racism as regards to blacks/African Americans has been particularly paramount, with a lesser but somewhat pronounced emphasis toward Hispanics and Asians.
But through all of the ups and downs, and even through the most ardent periods of raised racial consciousness, the extreme issues of racism toward indigenous people of the Americas has always been low on the radar of concern over racism. The only time that those concerns have received a more pronounced focus was during the 60's and early 70's when Native Americans forged strong movements under the American Indian Movement (also referred to as AIM). A very good understanding of this movement and those times can be found in an excellent book I have previously mentions, Like a Hurricane; The Indian Movement From Alcatraz to Wounded Knee by Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior. Another excellent work is Dennis Banks' Ojibwa Warrior; Dennis Banks and the Rise of the American Indian Movement.
The question is, Why has the plight of these indigenous people been pushed into the background or even outright suppressed for all these years? As terrible as have been the consequences of racism for black, Hispanics, and Asians, none have matched the utter devastation of the Native American/ First Nations peoples in terms of genocide, suppression of human rights, cultural destruction and/or cultural appropriation (yes, your team names!), loss of territory, and the utter humiliation and hatred heaped upon these people.
Why is this?
My conclusion is that we who are of European descent either know in our hearts that the annihilation of indigenous Americans was one of the most horrific acts in the history of humankind perpetrated by one group of people upon another, or are in denial about the severity of what transpired and still goes on today. We cannot sweep this under the carpet. Indigenous people in the Americas are still treated with the least respect, are still suppressed to the greatest degree, and are still the most held back by racial prejudice.
I think a lot of this is unconscious. I would dare to say that some of the things that have been written in this thread point to the fact that awareness of the issues mentioned here are still greatly misunderstood by even so generally "liberal" a group as those of us who frequent this forum. It's more than a little embarrassing and disheartening to see here some of the defenses offered for using Native American names and images for sports teams despite the overwhelming objections to that from American indigenous groups and tribes.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Comparing idiots in Green Bay wearing cheese on their heads to mocking indigenous peoples. Dressing up and doing dances…wtf
Perhaps part of the problem is that indigenous peoples are not often seen in our communities. They are the only people in our society that we still keep segregated? But what do they do to be more integrated in society. From my understanding the reserve system is partly in place so indigenous peoples have land of their own…indigenous peoples don’t believe in land ownership on a personal level…and we have stolen do much land from them and refuse to give them back land…
i wonder how many people who even comment on here have ever been to a reserve. Maybe some should visit? You can do your dances for them…wear a feather.
AN good point about segregation/ integration of indigenous people.
As most of us surely must know, indigenous people were shoved off on to marginal lands. The idea that they were "given" these lands is a joke. They were herded off their homelands and forced into places few would want to live. And these people were often nomadic tribes so that made it doubly fucked.
But you all know this, right? We could go into descriptions of what this means and how it happens but I really don't want to suppose that no one here is not aware of all that. If anyone here doesn't know this history, I can only shake my head and say, "Please do some reading on it."
As for integration, one attempt was The Indian Relocation Act of 1956. This was one fucking disastrous idea wherein Native American were "encouraged" to relocate to (or, often, dumped into) urban areas with the idea of them being assimilated into American society. But really, that was just another face of genocide and culturcide. Again, everybody here surely must know about this history, right? If no, please read up. Simply Google "American Indian urban relocation" and start reading. The disgrace of this act is evident and written about extensively.
But again, you all know this, right?
As for reservations, yes, anyone here who thinks they know something about the history of and current conditions of Native Americans in North America and hasn't visited a reservation would do well to do so. Yes, you can learn a lot about all this through reading- absolutely- but go and see for yourselves. Seeing is believing.
As for casinos, I hate them, but I support the idea. I hate it that indigenous people had to resort to doing these, but I totally get why they have and are. Maybe some of us don't like the idea of these casinos and if we express that well, Meltdown said it well, "I guess Indigenous peoples are not allowed to create revenue for their peoples?" You do what you have to do to survive. Who among us has the right to criticize the casinos? Not me.
And look, I'm not trying to be a know it all or chew anyone's ass. It's a subject I care about and have studied, but I'm no professor here. I just ask questions, say what I think, tell what I have found, and keep looking to learn more. I we all are doing that.
Being racist towards indigenous seems to be quite acceptable in our society...looks like it's acceptable here as well. People crow about indigenous people's living off the taxpayer and then when they try to create economic opportunities and jobs for their people's also a problem...
Its ridiculous....
Wow, no shit! Fucking ridiculous.
I can't believe some here only see this from an "outrage culture" stance (so "hip" to call it that, I guess) and still refuse to look at it from the indigenous persons disgust over their culture being used (i.e. appropriated) the way it has. That's so ass-backwards a way to see it, it's not even funny.
Yeah, racism towards indigenous people seems to get a pass from some here and that fucking boggles my mind. Sad, really sad.
If you named a sports team using a derogatory name that is used when referring to black people this place would lose its shit…there’d be 60 threads all about 6000 pages long…but when it comes to indigenous peoples many here are more worried about their precious sports teams name and logo…how bout we call the Cleveland team “the mistake by the lake.” That seems appropriate.
“Cracker “ is such a silly term. All of them are, really.
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
It's a racial slur.
If you dig into the word it originates from 17th century and it was never a word that was used politely. It morphed over the years to be a belittling word to white people.
If you ask most white people about the term I don't think you'd find many people take offense to it though?
Some wear it like a badge of honor.
Yep, just like the term redneck. It can go both ways.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,645
edited July 2021
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Do those names hurt rich people?
Pssshhhhhh.
Florida Crackers would be a great name.
I grew up in a racially diverse area and was called "white boy" all the time. I survived.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,645
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Do those names hurt rich people?
Pssshhhhhh.
Florida Crackers would be a great name.
I grew up in a racially diverse area and was called "white boy" all the time. I survived.
Totally - glad you could pull yourself up by your bootstraps and shake off the burden that society placed on you, being a white boy.
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Do those names hurt rich people?
Pssshhhhhh.
Florida Crackers would be a great name.
I grew up in a racially diverse area and was called "white boy" all the time. I survived.
Totally - glad you could pull yourself up by your bootstraps and shake off the burden that society placed on you, being a white boy.
Mascots are a particularly insulting indignity because they underscore the way White America and the U.S. government have devalued, controlled and attempted to eradicate Native cultures. Native people have held on to their languages and cultures through great persistence. They have been both shamed and romanticized. This history is one the rest of us tend to be unaware of; Native Americans object to fans playing at cultural practices like wearing face paint and feathers because the fans have no understanding of these items’ cultural meaning, of how they have been suppressed, or of the sacrifices, Native people have made to preserve them.
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Do those names hurt rich people?
Pssshhhhhh.
Florida Crackers would be a great name.
I grew up in a racially diverse area and was called "white boy" all the time. I survived.
Don't you find it interesting that it's meant as a slight and none of us seem to care?
Why it bounces right off of us but with other ethnicities certain words are taboo?
I would love to read a book on it if anyone has written one.
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
As a person who is mostly white I laugh my butt off at any white person claiming to be put down by hearing the terms Cracker, White Trash, or Redneck. (Edit - when referenced as such by any minorities)
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Do those names hurt rich people?
Pssshhhhhh.
Florida Crackers would be a great name.
I grew up in a racially diverse area and was called "white boy" all the time. I survived.
Don't you find it interesting that it's meant as a slight and none of us seem to care?
Why it bounces right off of us but with other ethnicities certain words are taboo?
I would love to read a book on it if anyone has written one.
Because unlike the "N" word (and others), it was never used to strip white people of their humanity and oppress them?
Comments
This is helpful.
At the risk of boiling the explanation down to a soundbite, it's the difference between:
'I didn't understand at the time that what I did was wrong'
and
'I understood what I was doing and did it anyways'
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
its also cultural apropriation , being a black term for southern whites......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
white slave foremen in the antebellum South were called "crackers" owing to their practice of "cracking the whip" to drive and punish slaves
If you dig into the word it originates from 17th century and it was never a word that was used politely. It morphed over the years to be a belittling word to white people.
If you ask most white people about the term I don't think you'd find many people take offense to it though?
Sure, they have been used in a derogatory fashion, but to what detriment?
Richsters - Filthy Rich - Blue Bloods - Silver Spooners - Trust Fund Fuckers
Pssshhhhhh.
From the article...
Mascots are a particularly insulting indignity because they underscore the way White America and the U.S. government have devalued, controlled and attempted to eradicate Native cultures. Native people have held on to their languages and cultures through great persistence. They have been both shamed and romanticized. This history is one the rest of us tend to be unaware of; Native Americans object to fans playing at cultural practices like wearing face paint and feathers because the fans have no understanding of these items’ cultural meaning, of how they have been suppressed, or of the sacrifices, Native people have made to preserve them.
Why it bounces right off of us but with other ethnicities certain words are taboo?
I would love to read a book on it if anyone has written one.
You can call me Flower if you want you.