what's the fucking deal with Israel?

NMyTree

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

That makes all kinds of sense.

In Bizzaro world:D

evenkat

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

And once again, the poster that made a wildly unjustified attack on an entire country plays the victim.

Well its seems that's what we do best!

And thanks Helen cuz now I have that Alanis Morissette song stuck in my head lol.

Rhinocerous Surprise

evenkat wrote:

Well its seems that's what we do best!

And thanks Helen cuz now I have that Alanis Morissette song stuck in my head lol.

"It's like raaaaiiiiin on your wedding day...



Wait, no, it's an Israeli air strike."

catefrances

evenkat wrote:

I actually sympathize with both sides, blame both sides and think both sides are being ridiculous.

sweetpotato wrote:

that still implies that you assume you and the palestinians were/are the wronged parties and therefore somewhat blameless.
...

sweetpotato wrote:

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible....

How are the Palestinians to blame for having their land stolen, their civil and human rights eroded to non existance, and being forced to live in Apartheid style bantustans - ghettoes - which are separated by barbed wire and checkpoints - http://www.maiap.org/

Israeli occupation similar to apartheid
'...examination of the 13 isolated West Bank cantons, which comprise 287 enclosed areas, is functionally equivalent to the apartheid design of South African Bantustans. Although the analogy is vehemently discredited as too tenuous or absurd by sympathizers of Israel, it has been echoed by the likes of Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu (who have endured South African apartheid) as well as other intellectuals and leaders across the globe.'


I'd like to know how they're to blame for having 20,000 of their homes bulldozed and for the building of 220 illegal, Jewish only, settlements - Israeli Committee against House Demolitions: http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=488
I'd also like to know how the Palestinians are to blame for the fact that an average of 1,069,200 Palestinians now live in deep poverty, up from 650,800 in the second half of last year - http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6108.shtml

UN alarm at Palestinian poverty - February 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6387843.stm
As far as I'm concerned, Israel can't put any of the blame on Palestine. As we speak, Israel is in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions. The palestinians are in breach of none. Until Israel begins abiding by international law, and obeys the demands of the international community - excluding it's sponsor, the U.S - by withdrawing to the internationally recognized 1967 borders, then it has no right to make any demands of the Palestinians.

I happen to agree with Michael Neumann, author of 'The case against Israel':

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4690.shtml
'When he comes to the options available to Palestinians for countering Israel's race-war, Neumann is brutally consistent: there are none, save violence. This part of his argument will be unacceptable to the fainthearted, but it is up to them to refute it. He does not content himself with dismissing passive resistance as an option in the Palestinian context, but denies that it has worked in any context where the powerless faced the unscrupulously powerful. Gandhi "cannot be said to have won independence for India", Martin Luther King's civil rights movement had the backing of the US establishment, indeed "was practically a federal government project", and South Africa's ANC "was never a nonviolent movement but a movement that decided, on occasion, to use nonviolent tactics".

As for "terrorism", which he defines as "random violence against non-combatants", he distinguishes it from "collateral damage" with the assertion that the latter "involves knowingly killing innocent civilians" while "Terrorism involves intentionally killing innocent civilians", concluding that "the moral difference is too academic even for an academic." Why, then, is "terrorism" considered to be particularly morally repugnant, while "collateral damage" tends to be taken in our moral stride?

"Imagine trying to make such a claim. You say: 'To achieve my objectives, I would certainly drop bombs with the knowledge that they would blow the arms off some children. But to achieve those same objectives, I would not plant or set off a bomb on the ground with the knowledge that it would have that same effect. After all, I have planes to do that, I don't need to plant bombs.' As a claim of moral superiority, this needs a little work."

The Palestinians, he repeats, are without options. Israel has all the options, principally that of unilateral withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, but refuses to use them. Hence he refuses "to pronounce judgment on Palestinian terrorism."

Commy

as for Hamas


"Hamas was founded in 1988, after over 20 years of Israeli persecution of Palestinians and failure of the UN to intervene with the acts of Israeli conservatives to create a Warsaw style Ghetto of Arabs in the West Bank confiscating property and giving them identity cards, SOUND FAMILIAR?Hamas was not there until the WORLD failed to attack the Naziesk nation that Israel has become.

Just witness how Israel murders all peace makers or ignores them including their own men of peace.

So, you reap what you sow, and Hamas is the fruit of Bush and Sharon's brilliant endevours on the Israeli Palestinian front, just like Hetzbollah is the fruit of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. At this point, there cannot be peace by isolating or ignoring Hamas, period."

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism
Anti Bush-ism (anti-neocon) is not anti American-ism.

The reverse is true. It's pro Semetic and pro American.

I can't believe people are getting upset about people complaining in light of all the circumstances going on right now

arghhhhh.....wtf!!

anyhow..

How does one ignore this reality (below) and hope to approach a solution?

"Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, "
"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities""

yikes...they sure sound like terrorists...


oops forgot link for above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

catefrances

okay this is for all the unaware folk. and im not singling any particular person out here. just sharing some knowledge with you all.

arabs are semitic.

if one ventures an opinion that is critical of jews and seen therefore mistakenly as pro arab, one can not be accused of being an antisemite.

besides semitism is reflective of language. it is not an ethnicity or race. not in the context of jew vs arab.

El_Kabong

sweetpotato wrote:

that's stupid. i am just as anti-war as most americans. have you read any papers lately? the war is, um, pretty unpopular here. and you're gonna compare a handful of horrible school shootings to years and years of "the troubles"?? now who's laughable??

the war is unpopular? i thought a lot of ppl here were rationalizing why we have to stay for a few more years?? maybe not you but looooooots of others

and school shootings aren't the only thing to show we are a violent society

fuck

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism
Anti Bush-ism (anti-neocon) is not anti American-ism.

The reverse is true. It's pro Semetic and pro American.

I can't believe people are getting upset about people complaining in light of all the circumstances going on right now

arghhhhh.....wtf!!

anyhow..

How does one ignore this reality (below) and hope to approach a solution?

"Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, "
"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities""

yikes...they sure sound like terrorists...


oops forgot link for above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

"I'm going to completely ignore this highly informative post, based on the grounds that it was just a copy and paste which took no real effort whatsoever."

oh, I forgot to say "you support hamas which makes you an anti-semite, anti-american, and anti-freedom."

catefrances

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

"I'm going to completely ignore this highly informative post, based on the grounds that it was just a copy and paste which took no real effort whatsoever."

oh, I forgot to say "you support hamas which makes you an anti-semite, anti-american, and anti-freedom."

im not sure whether you serious or just kidding. i shall await your distinction before i comment.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

"I'm going to completely ignore this highly informative post, based on the grounds that it was just a copy and paste which took no real effort whatsoever."

oh, I forgot to say "you support hamas which makes you an anti-semite, anti-american, and anti-freedom."

You know... I just saw the light, and I whole heartedly agree with you. What have I been thinking all this time?!?

Do you need a lift to Rod Parsley's? I'm on my over there to get a nice hearty sermon and a microchip implant.

There's going to be snacks and pop afterwards.

The first 100 in the door also get a 50 cents off coupon for a John Hagee retreat weekend, so let me know soon.

*anxious to get started on my programming, and brand new life*

sweetpotato

El_Kabong wrote:

the war is unpopular? i thought a lot of ppl here were rationalizing why we have to stay for a few more years?? maybe not you but looooooots of others

and school shootings aren't the only thing to show we are a violent society

i agree that we are NOT PERFECT. i have said that- REPEATEDLY. but i do think that most people are against the war, regardless of the bullshit they've been fed about how much longer we "need" to be there. and definitely I AM against the war, have been from day one.

sweetpotato

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yes, we win... cos that's exactly what we've been saying throughout the thread *note... extremely high level of sarcasm*

There was no bullying... you came out all guns a blazing and rather than giving a reasoned calm opposition... you start spouting a load of bull about what you 'know' about Ireland but really... thank you for the laugh.

so, let me see if i have this straight. you claim that I came out "guns a-blazing" with this:

sweetpotato wrote:

how many jews are in ireland? i forget. oh yeah. none."

but YOU started the thread with THIS:

HeinekenHelen wrote:

what's the fucking deal with Israel?

And why are all the candidates going on about how they'll protect it? Does it not piss you off that your country is probably spending BILLIONS a year to protect another country halfway around the world... a conflict that only makes you a target? As an outsider, it seems pretty fucking ridiculous! I know about the whole money thing and how america is run by Jews and all that BUT... fucking hell, could their intentions BE more obvious?

but you weren't being antagonistic in any way, right? :rolleyes:



i think it's time to put down the heineken, helen.

fuck

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

You know... I just saw the light, and I whole heartedly agree with you. What have I been thinking all this time?!?

Do you need a lift to Rod Parsley's? I'm on my over there to get a nice hearty sermon and a microchip implant.

There's going to be snacks and pop afterwards.

The first 100 in the door also get a 50 cents off coupon for a John Hagee retreat weekend, so let me know soon.

*anxious to get started on my programming, and brand new life*

count me in!!

fuck

sweetpotato wrote:

i agree that we are NOT PERFECT. i have said that- REPEATEDLY. but i do think that most people are against the war, regardless of the bullshit they've been fed about how much longer we "need" to be there. and definitely I AM against the war, have been from day one.

why are you against the war?
as far as I am concerned, most Americans that are against the war don't even know WHY they are, they just know that supporting the war right now is not a good thing.

fuck

sweetpotato wrote:

so, let me see if i have this straight. you claim that I came out "guns a-blazing" with this:

you insulted their country and questioned their knowledge. if you didn't expect them to react in an angry way, then you really should watch what you say.

but YOU started the thread with THIS:

but you weren't being antagonistic in any way, right? :rolleyes:

um, actually, her post was in the best interest of the US.... she was saying why is the US spending billions supporting a regime that does not benefit the US more than it hurts it.............................

RolandTD20Kdrummer

sweetpotato wrote:

no, but her incessant criticism is fucking irritating. we;re far from perfect, but we're still pretty great. don't you agree? do you enjoy being shit on constantly by non-americans??

You make me realize how the holocaust was possible. In all seriousness.

edit: aye fucking carumba...

sweetpotato

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

you insulted their country and questioned their knowledge. if you didn't expect them to react in an angry way, then you really should watch what you say...

i'll say whatever i want, thanks. and i won't pass it by you first, btw.

and if you think i should check what i say, then so should helen. i've seen her shit on america repeatedly, in various threads, tho some here seem to have on rose- or maybe green- colored glasses when it comes to her. as if she's this big america supporter! that's a fucking joke.

here's the thing- millions of americans who didn't vote for bush and have hated him and his policies from day one ALREADY KNOW how fucked some of the things our country has and is doing IN OUR NAME. but people like helen base their opinion of america on the last seven years, a period that most americans would love to forget because we're embarrassed by how fucking stupid and arrogant our prez is and how he has turned what was once a nation that was admired and imitated into one that is an easy target for such worldly folk as our dear helen.

i for one, am fucking sick of it. we're coming up on an election, and we're trying with all our hearts to change what's going on in washington. give us a fucking break.

sweetpotato

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

why are you against the war?
as far as I am concerned, most Americans that are against the war don't even know WHY they are, they just know that supporting the war right now is not a good thing.

i'm against the war because i don't think we belong there. does it need to be more complicated than that? and it's not about "right now", i never was for the war. if we had stayed in afghanistan and found bin laden, we'd be in a better place. iraq was a big mistake since it solved nothing and created even more hatred towards us- and more terrorist cells- than before. we're LESS safe than ever. but our current support of israel is not to blame for that. we've supported them openly for decades. our actions in iraq are to blame.

sweetpotato

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

You make me realize how the holocaust was possible. In all seriousness.

edit: aye fucking carumba...

if i thought you were insane before, now i'm sure of it.