what's the fucking deal with Israel?

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible. but the thread poses the question, what is WRONG with israel? (i'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, am i right?). seems pretty one-sided to me, no? and the thread starter is an america-hater from the wonderfully diverse and truly enlightened island of ireland, which has so many lessons to teach us, right? like about living peacefully with ONE other group for years... oh, yeah, they couldn't manage that. let's see. oh, here's one- like showing religious tolerance... oops, failed at that, too. hmmm. i'm at a loss. what exactly does ireland contribute, aside from thousands of immigrants and now millions of native-born americans? imagine that! a country who opened its arms to you, and certainly still does, and we suck! talk about ingrates.

i just think that if the criticism was coming from a country that HASN'T greatly benefitted from america's willingness to open its borders and spend lots of cash all around the world, it might be a little easier to swallow. unfortunately, there aren't many countries who fit that description.

LMFAO... your opinion means absolutely nothing to me since you've chosen to ignore the other posts that answer your very questions! The title does not say 'what is wrong with israel?' it says 'what's the fucking deal with Israel?' and the first post elaborates on what I wanted to know... mainly why does your government support Israel blindly... using your money... and why do you find that acceptable? As for the rest of your post... proves your ignorance and why your opinion is null but thanks for the laugh.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible. but the thread poses the question, what is WRONG with israel? (i'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, am i right?). seems pretty one-sided to me, no? and the thread starter is an america-hater from the wonderfully diverse and truly enlightened island of ireland, which has so many lessons to teach us, right? like about living peacefully with ONE other group for years... oh, yeah, they couldn't manage that. let's see. oh, here's one- like showing religious tolerance... oops, failed at that, too. hmmm. i'm at a loss. what exactly does ireland contribute, aside from thousands of immigrants and now millions of native-born americans? imagine that! a country who opened its arms to you, and certainly still does, and we suck! talk about ingrates.

i just think that if the criticism was coming from a country that HASN'T greatly benefitted from america's willingness to open its borders and spend lots of cash all around the world, it might be a little easier to swallow. unfortunately, there aren't many countries who fit that description.

Iraq springs to mind.

Maybe Hels should make a new thread. What's the fucking deal with SweetPotato?

Your points about tolerance are pretty laughable, coming from a country that's conducting a war on terror that's tantamount to a war on Islam. And you wanna talk about Irish folks living peacefully with each other... how many school shootings have you had in the last year? And that's just cos some kids went batshit crazy, not even over national borders.

Keep in mind - we're Irish. We eat potatoes like you for dinner every night.

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

and so do we, but if you really feel that way, why do you feel the need to bash us every chance you get?

When did I bash you? My previous post being an exception... cos that was in response to your ignorance

Abookamongstthemany

sweetpotato wrote:

no, but her incessant criticism is fucking irritating. we;re far from perfect, but we're still pretty great. don't you agree? do you enjoy being shit on constantly by non-americans??

Our foreign policy is fucking shite


I don't give a shit who agrees with me or where they happen to be from. It doesn't take American eyes to see our imperialist, murderous ways and reject them.

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

that still implies that you assume you and the palestinians were/are the wronged parties and therefore somewhat blameless.

as far as this newfound diversity, that's fabulous. welcome to the 21st century.

It doesn't imply that at ALL... the Palestinians are the ones who are being wronged RIGHT NOW! Doesn't fucking matter what happened 1000 years ago... it probably does to them but they'll learn that you can't have a future living in the past! if it does to you well that's your problem.

Heineken Helen

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Why does criticism of American foreign policy always have to equal hating America?
And why does that make the Irish ingrates? They should have to agree with our official stance on Israel to still be considered grateful??

Abook... meet my good friend 'brick wall'

sweetpotato

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Iraq springs to mind.

Maybe Hels should make a new thread. What's the fucking deal with SweetPotato?

Your points about tolerance are pretty laughable, coming from a country that's conducting a war on terror that's tantamount to a war on Islam. And you wanna talk about Irish folks living peacefully with each other... how many school shootings have you had in the last year? And that's just cos some kids went batshit crazy, not even over national borders.

Keep in mind - we're Irish. We eat potatoes like you for dinner every night.

that's stupid. i am just as anti-war as most americans. have you read any papers lately? the war is, um, pretty unpopular here. and you're gonna compare a handful of horrible school shootings to years and years of "the troubles"?? now who's laughable??

Abookamongstthemany

Heineken Helen wrote:

Abook... meet my good friend 'brick wall'

Oh we've met.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

that's stupid. i am just as anti-war as most americans. have you read any papers lately? the war is, um, pretty unpopular here. and you're gonna compare a handful of horrible school shootings to years and years of "the troubles"?? now who's laughable??

All I'm saying is Iraq probably doesn't appreciate America's big policy of spreading your love all over the world. Whether the world wants it or not.

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

that's stupid. i am just as anti-war as most americans. have you read any papers lately? the war is, um, pretty unpopular here. and you're gonna compare a handful of horrible school shootings to years and years of "the troubles"?? now who's laughable??

Still you the troubles are over m'dear

NMyTree

Heineken Helen wrote:

NMyTree... you may as well be talking about Northern Ireland 10/15 years ago. I said this will NOT work overnight... but you have to place the foundations of equality NOW and it will take years but people WILL realise there is no other way. This is the only way it worked in NI... it DID take years but of course it did. But until those foundations are placed and whilst it continues the way it is... they're not even on the ROAD to peace yet. Like I said about segregation in US and apartheid in SA... none of these things happen overnight... but it WILL happen if that's what you work towards. There are plenty of people on BOTH sides who want peace and we need to give THEM a platform rather than the ones who speak of hate.

Like I said Helen, I agree completely. And yes, I am aware of the similarities to Northern Ireland. I truely hope people start putting presure on both sides, highlight and raise the people who want peace to the forefront and diminish/marginalize the haters and vicious of both sides.

sweetpotato

ok, you all win. america sucks. ireland is wildly diverse. israelis are to blame for everything in the middle east. and once again, a solitary voice of dissent is bullied by the board mafia.

excellent. you've all changed the world in this thread, too, btw. as you so often do.

toddler needs attention. and to think, he's 1/2 irish!

Heineken Helen

NMyTree wrote:

Like I said Helen, I agree completely. And yes, I am aware of the similarities to Northern Ireland. I truely hope people start putting presure on both sides, highlight and raise the people who want peace to the forefront and diminish/marginalize the haters and vicious of both sides.

It would be lovely to see... the reality is quite different... not to do the whole Clinton/Bush thing but I think if Clinton had a few more years, they woulda got it

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

ok, you all win. america sucks. ireland is wildly diverse. israelis are to blame for everything in the middle east. and once again, a solitary voice of dissent is bullied by the board mafia.

excellent. you've all changed the world in this thread, too, btw. as you so often do.

toddler needs attention. and to think, he's 1/2 irish!

America doesn't suck. Ireland is as diverse as a lot of developed countries. Israel can't keep putting ALL the blame on Palestine.

And once again, the poster that made a wildly unjustified attack on an entire country plays the victim.

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

ok, you all win. america sucks. ireland is wildly diverse. israelis are to blame for everything in the middle east. and once again, a solitary voice of dissent is bullied by the board mafia.

excellent. you've all changed the world in this thread, too, btw. as you so often do.

toddler needs attention. and to think, he's 1/2 irish!

Yes, we win... cos that's exactly what we've been saying throughout the thread *note... extremely high level of sarcasm*

There was no bullying... you came out all guns a blazing and rather than giving a reasoned calm opposition... you start spouting a load of bull about what you 'know' about Ireland but really... thank you for the laugh.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

And once again, the poster that made a wildly unjustified attack on an entire country plays the victim.

quite ironic... don't ya think?

Abookamongstthemany

sweetpotato wrote:

ok, you all win. america sucks. ireland is wildly diverse. israelis are to blame for everything in the middle east. and once again, a solitary voice of dissent is bullied by the board mafia.

excellent. you've all changed the world in this thread, too, btw. as you so often do.

toddler needs attention. and to think, he's 1/2 irish!

Sometimes people just disagree with you. That's all it was.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

quite ironic... don't ya think?

It struck me right after I hit submit.

Abookamongstthemany

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yes, we win... cos that's exactly what we've been saying throughout the thread *note... extremely high level of sarcasm*

Yep, we won a bunch of made-up points of that no one even came close to saying.

That makes all kinds of sense.

NMyTree

sweetpotato wrote:

ok, you all win. america sucks. ireland is wildly diverse. israelis are to blame for everything in the middle east. and once again, a solitary voice of dissent is bullied by the board mafia.

excellent. you've all changed the world in this thread, too, btw. as you so often do.

toddler needs attention. and to think, he's 1/2 irish!

And this post illustrates it all.

No one ever said any of that. NO ONE !!!

It's only in your lazy interpretation and perception, that you come to these absurd and barely though-out conclusions.

How many times do people have to plainly state that both sides are to blame?

People here are clearly and severely criticizing and unhappy with American Foreign Policy. AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY !!!!

NO ONE !!! said anything about the whole country and all it's people sucking. Are you capable of making the distinction? Can you comprehend the differences? NO ONE is bashing America.

Ultimately, American Foreign Policy is truely more about American Foreign/International Corporate policy and interests; than anything else.

That's the reality of it.

This thread is specifically about calling attention to Israel's behavior and their part in the neverending conflict. It's a focused topic of discussion.

Rather than a loose, wide, all encompassing topic of discussion. Understand?

If you utilize the search function in this forum and type in " Palestine" or " Palestinian ". You will come across plenty of posts/threads dedicated to calling attention to the Palestinian's behavior and role in this conflict.

You'll find plenty of posts by me, there.

I have no idea why your mentality is so Black or White.....All or Nothing .....One extreme or the other.

Most people fully realize that reality occurs more to the middle gray area, not to one extreme or the other. Won't you join us there?:)

NMyTree

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

That makes all kinds of sense.

In Bizzaro world:D

evenkat

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

And once again, the poster that made a wildly unjustified attack on an entire country plays the victim.

Well its seems that's what we do best!

And thanks Helen cuz now I have that Alanis Morissette song stuck in my head lol.

Rhinocerous Surprise

evenkat wrote:

Well its seems that's what we do best!

And thanks Helen cuz now I have that Alanis Morissette song stuck in my head lol.

"It's like raaaaiiiiin on your wedding day...



Wait, no, it's an Israeli air strike."

catefrances

evenkat wrote:

I actually sympathize with both sides, blame both sides and think both sides are being ridiculous.

sweetpotato wrote:

that still implies that you assume you and the palestinians were/are the wronged parties and therefore somewhat blameless.
...

sweetpotato wrote:

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible....

How are the Palestinians to blame for having their land stolen, their civil and human rights eroded to non existance, and being forced to live in Apartheid style bantustans - ghettoes - which are separated by barbed wire and checkpoints - http://www.maiap.org/

Israeli occupation similar to apartheid
'...examination of the 13 isolated West Bank cantons, which comprise 287 enclosed areas, is functionally equivalent to the apartheid design of South African Bantustans. Although the analogy is vehemently discredited as too tenuous or absurd by sympathizers of Israel, it has been echoed by the likes of Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu (who have endured South African apartheid) as well as other intellectuals and leaders across the globe.'


I'd like to know how they're to blame for having 20,000 of their homes bulldozed and for the building of 220 illegal, Jewish only, settlements - Israeli Committee against House Demolitions: http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=488
I'd also like to know how the Palestinians are to blame for the fact that an average of 1,069,200 Palestinians now live in deep poverty, up from 650,800 in the second half of last year - http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6108.shtml

UN alarm at Palestinian poverty - February 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6387843.stm
As far as I'm concerned, Israel can't put any of the blame on Palestine. As we speak, Israel is in breach of over 60 U.N resolutions. The palestinians are in breach of none. Until Israel begins abiding by international law, and obeys the demands of the international community - excluding it's sponsor, the U.S - by withdrawing to the internationally recognized 1967 borders, then it has no right to make any demands of the Palestinians.

I happen to agree with Michael Neumann, author of 'The case against Israel':

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4690.shtml
'When he comes to the options available to Palestinians for countering Israel's race-war, Neumann is brutally consistent: there are none, save violence. This part of his argument will be unacceptable to the fainthearted, but it is up to them to refute it. He does not content himself with dismissing passive resistance as an option in the Palestinian context, but denies that it has worked in any context where the powerless faced the unscrupulously powerful. Gandhi "cannot be said to have won independence for India", Martin Luther King's civil rights movement had the backing of the US establishment, indeed "was practically a federal government project", and South Africa's ANC "was never a nonviolent movement but a movement that decided, on occasion, to use nonviolent tactics".

As for "terrorism", which he defines as "random violence against non-combatants", he distinguishes it from "collateral damage" with the assertion that the latter "involves knowingly killing innocent civilians" while "Terrorism involves intentionally killing innocent civilians", concluding that "the moral difference is too academic even for an academic." Why, then, is "terrorism" considered to be particularly morally repugnant, while "collateral damage" tends to be taken in our moral stride?

"Imagine trying to make such a claim. You say: 'To achieve my objectives, I would certainly drop bombs with the knowledge that they would blow the arms off some children. But to achieve those same objectives, I would not plant or set off a bomb on the ground with the knowledge that it would have that same effect. After all, I have planes to do that, I don't need to plant bombs.' As a claim of moral superiority, this needs a little work."

The Palestinians, he repeats, are without options. Israel has all the options, principally that of unilateral withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, but refuses to use them. Hence he refuses "to pronounce judgment on Palestinian terrorism."

Commy

as for Hamas


"Hamas was founded in 1988, after over 20 years of Israeli persecution of Palestinians and failure of the UN to intervene with the acts of Israeli conservatives to create a Warsaw style Ghetto of Arabs in the West Bank confiscating property and giving them identity cards, SOUND FAMILIAR?Hamas was not there until the WORLD failed to attack the Naziesk nation that Israel has become.

Just witness how Israel murders all peace makers or ignores them including their own men of peace.

So, you reap what you sow, and Hamas is the fruit of Bush and Sharon's brilliant endevours on the Israeli Palestinian front, just like Hetzbollah is the fruit of the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. At this point, there cannot be peace by isolating or ignoring Hamas, period."

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism
Anti Bush-ism (anti-neocon) is not anti American-ism.

The reverse is true. It's pro Semetic and pro American.

I can't believe people are getting upset about people complaining in light of all the circumstances going on right now

arghhhhh.....wtf!!

anyhow..

How does one ignore this reality (below) and hope to approach a solution?

"Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, "
"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities""

yikes...they sure sound like terrorists...


oops forgot link for above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

catefrances

okay this is for all the unaware folk. and im not singling any particular person out here. just sharing some knowledge with you all.

arabs are semitic.

if one ventures an opinion that is critical of jews and seen therefore mistakenly as pro arab, one can not be accused of being an antisemite.

besides semitism is reflective of language. it is not an ethnicity or race. not in the context of jew vs arab.

El_Kabong

sweetpotato wrote:

that's stupid. i am just as anti-war as most americans. have you read any papers lately? the war is, um, pretty unpopular here. and you're gonna compare a handful of horrible school shootings to years and years of "the troubles"?? now who's laughable??

the war is unpopular? i thought a lot of ppl here were rationalizing why we have to stay for a few more years?? maybe not you but looooooots of others

and school shootings aren't the only thing to show we are a violent society

fuck

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism
Anti Bush-ism (anti-neocon) is not anti American-ism.

The reverse is true. It's pro Semetic and pro American.

I can't believe people are getting upset about people complaining in light of all the circumstances going on right now

arghhhhh.....wtf!!

anyhow..

How does one ignore this reality (below) and hope to approach a solution?

"Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, "
"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities""

yikes...they sure sound like terrorists...


oops forgot link for above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

"I'm going to completely ignore this highly informative post, based on the grounds that it was just a copy and paste which took no real effort whatsoever."

oh, I forgot to say "you support hamas which makes you an anti-semite, anti-american, and anti-freedom."

catefrances

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

"I'm going to completely ignore this highly informative post, based on the grounds that it was just a copy and paste which took no real effort whatsoever."

oh, I forgot to say "you support hamas which makes you an anti-semite, anti-american, and anti-freedom."

im not sure whether you serious or just kidding. i shall await your distinction before i comment.