what's the fucking deal with Israel?

JordyWordy

catefrances wrote:

dont forget there was a push before the shoah for a jewish state. and considering the amount of persecution jews have had to deal with throughout history who can blame them for wanting a haven. twas the execution in creating the state of israel that was and remains the problem, not the fact that it exists.

sorry, forgot to mention that. I never said Israel existing was the problem, and i dont know where i gave that impression.

I complete agree with them having a haven. Everyone needs one.

am i posting in double dutch?

catefrances

JordyWordy wrote:

sorry, forgot to mention that. I never said Israel existing was the problem, and i dont know where i gave that impression.

I complete agree with them having a haven. Everyone needs one.

am i posting in double dutch?

you never said that and you didnt give that impression either and i wasnt implying that you did. did i give that impression?

nope no double dutch.

JordyWordy

NMyTree wrote:

Both Israel and the Palestinians have commited attrocities for decades and decades.

We've been long past the point of laying blame at only one side's feet.

ahh good stuff, thats the exact point of the Ireland analogy that sparked so much trouble a few pages back!

NMyTree wrote:

I know this concept will conflict with the few here at the MT, who have their hearts set on defining and labeling me as an anti-semite. I know it will be quite disappointing for them to realize they missed my message all along. But they'll get over it.

Yeah, there are threads i read here which can grossly oversimplify issues sometimes. "You can only pick right or wrong you know" attitude
The world is made of chalk and cheese to some people. Makes for good debate though!

JordyWordy

catefrances wrote:

you never said that and you didnt give that impression either and i wasnt implying that you did. did i give that impression?

nope no double dutch.

ah right!! cool, (thought i may have contradicted myself somewhere, nevermind!) my bad!

evenkat

sweetpotato wrote:

and the fact that you and helen are so vehemently anti-israel (and apparently anti-american) in this case is laughable, since you live in a country that went through something very similar, yet you haven't learned anything from it.

I don't know Rhino but I know Helen very well and she is definitely not anti-American. Just because they have different opinions doesn't make them anti-Israel or anti-American. They explained they tend to sympathize with the Palestinians because they find it similar to what the Irish went through. I can respect that.

I actually sympathize with both sides, blame both sides and think both sides are being ridiculous.

evenkat

Heineken Helen wrote:

you get them to stop fighting by giving them equal rights to the land... equal opportunities... everything equal. It won't work overnight but after a while people will realise it CAN work... like in NI, like in the US with segregation, like in SA with apartheid. We're not saying to kick the jews out and do to them what they've been doing to the Palestinians... but make them stop doing what they're doing and treating the Palestinians like they don't belong in their own place.

Ah you make it sound so easy lol.

Commy

evenkat wrote:

I don't know Rhino but I know Helen very well and she is definitely not anti-American. Just because they have different opinions doesn't make them anti-Israel or anti-American. They explained they tend to sympathize with the Palestinians because they find it similar to what the Irish went through. I can respect that.

I actually sympathize with both sides, blame both sides and think both sides are being ridiculous.

Good call. Israel is occupying more palestinian land every day and palestinians are resisting that occupation. Violence may not be the best way to go about it but it seems to be the only language Israel understands.

catefrances

evenkat wrote:

Ah you make it sound so easy lol.

maybe it is. why do we always think that such situations require such complicated answers. fuck knows i'm guilty of overthinking things. i know the issues appear complicated but that doesnt necessarily lend itself to complicated answers. what if one day israel pulled down that wall. what if one day israel allowed everyone equal access to everything. what if one day israel dismantled the occupied territories. what if one day israel started replacing the palestinians homes they destroyed. what if one day the knesset voted to allow palestinians the right of return. what if one day israel acknowledged the massive wrongdoings and the palestinians accepted and acknowledged their wrongdoing in retaliation and both accepted this and decided it was in the best interests of ALL the people to work together. what if one day israel said to the UN(and by this i mean the US) we need help, we no longer see this as a viable situation(as if it ever was.) help us to achieve a peaceful country. what if one day the arab countries actually got off their collective arse for a change and helped the palestinians and the jews in this venture.
all it takes is one decision made and adherred to.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

catefrances wrote:

mordecai piron who was appointed in 1969 to the rank of aluf, general, and became chief rabbi of the IDF said the following.

The new term is IOF not IDF Occupation forces rather than Defense forces

The solution is coming...I'm feeling it. More people are becoming aware, as the mainstream media is finally starting to cover the Palestinian angle accurately. Let's hope it continues to balance out.

It would a blessing to have this conflict resolved...the whole world would sigh from relief.

NMyTree

Heineken Helen wrote:

you get them to stop fighting by giving them equal rights to the land... equal opportunities... everything equal. It won't work overnight but after a while people will realise it CAN work...

It would work if both sides were willing to put aside their differences and willing to establish a common ground for working towards such an agreement.

Believe me, I'm with you on this and wish with all my might it would happen.

But the problems run so deep.

There's so much water (blood) under the bridge and the animosity and hatered is of monumental proportions.

There's also a deep-rooted, pre-existing bigotry and racism, in a significant percentage of the population of both sides, where both sides view each other as lower lifeforms. As insignificant beings who don't deserve to be treated with respect, empathy and diginity.

As if their long line of murderous attrocities against each other weren't bad enough to over-come; this racism and bigotry makes that mountain that much higher of a climb.

Heineken Helen

sweetpotato wrote:

you know what they say about assuming? well, you're making an ass of yourself at least.

but to answer your question, what i mean is that the US is home to a hugely diverse population, and our policies hopefully reflect that. as opposed to a primarily homogeneous country like ireland, which is relatively isolated, and let's be honest, not exactly a huge player in world politics. US foreign policy may not be perfect, surely it isn't, but we ARE a world leader. aside from all the american US-haters' claims that our support of israel is part of some conspiracy to take over the middle east and its oil, i think the fact that israel has been the underdog in so many instances for so many years, and right now sits among enemies who wish it ill at every turn, are the primary reasons the US supports israel's efforts to hold onto that land.

that said, i do not agree with everything israel does, and i have said so in other threads. but i agree with evenkat that we it's equally wrong to assume that everything the palestinians do is right and justified.

and the fact that you and helen are so vehemently anti-israel (and apparently anti-american) in this case is laughable, since you live in a country that went through something very similar, yet you haven't learned anything from it.

We've learned PLENTY from it... that's why we empathise with the palestinians... cos they're the ones who are right now going through what we went through. And I'm pretty sure every one of us Irish people posting here said we've nothing against Israelis... but just want them to stop doing what they're doing to the Palestinians... and I wish nothing but peace for ALL of them. Hmm... and of course there's no diversity in Ireland :rolleyes: why don't you come here some day? If you're looking for directions in Dublin... it's a 50/50 chance of finding someone who speaks English. All your 'diversity' are now Americans... the diversity we know is from the source... people who have come DIRECTLY from these countries. Yes, immigration in Ireland is a relatively new thing... about 20 years now... but we certainly have it. Most newspapers have Polish supplements these days. On the building site I work on, our induction sheets are copied in about 20 different languages... so don't tell me we know nothing about diversity.

Heineken Helen

NMyTree wrote:

It would work if both sides were willing to put aside their differences and willing to establish a common ground for working towards such an agreement.

Believe me, I'm with you on this and wish with all my might it would happen.

But the problems run so deep.

There's so much water (blood) under the bridge and the animosity and hatered is of monumental proportions.

There's also a deep-rooted, pre-existing bigotry and racism, in a significant percentage of the population of both sides, where both sides view each other as lower lifeforms. As insignificant beings who don't deserve to be treated with respect, empathy and diginity.

As if their long line of murderous attrocities against each other weren't bad enough to over-come; this racism and bigotry makes that mountain that much higher of a climb.

NMyTree... you may as well be talking about Northern Ireland 10/15 years ago. I said this will NOT work overnight... but you have to place the foundations of equality NOW and it will take years but people WILL realise there is no other way. This is the only way it worked in NI... it DID take years but of course it did. But until those foundations are placed and whilst it continues the way it is... they're not even on the ROAD to peace yet. Like I said about segregation in US and apartheid in SA... none of these things happen overnight... but it WILL happen if that's what you work towards. There are plenty of people on BOTH sides who want peace and we need to give THEM a platform rather than the ones who speak of hate.

Heineken Helen

evenkat wrote:

I don't know Rhino but I know Helen very well and she is definitely not anti-American. Just because they have different opinions doesn't make them anti-Israel or anti-American. They explained they tend to sympathize with the Palestinians because they find it similar to what the Irish went through. I can respect that.

I actually sympathize with both sides, blame both sides and think both sides are being ridiculous.

thanks... I've given up defending my anti-americanism :rolleyes: how many times can I tell these people that I fucking love your country and WANT it to be the great and moral leader that it can and should be. However it's being ruined by those who lead it and that's just sad, really really sad!

JordyWordy

Heineken Helen wrote:

you have to place the foundations of equality NOW and it will take years but people WILL realise there is no other way. This is the only way it worked in NI... it DID take years but of course it did. But until those foundations are placed and whilst it continues the way it is... they're not even on the ROAD to peace yet. Like I said about segregation in US and apartheid in SA... none of these things happen overnight... but it WILL happen if that's what you work towards. There are plenty of people on BOTH sides who want peace and we need to give THEM a platform rather than the ones who speak of hate.

exactly. Policy starts from the top up and as little changes are made the majority begin to see the benefits of living in a peaceful country which respects the rights of each side, and eventually the public attitude turns against the dissidents and violence.

making that "one decision" like catefrances said, and both sides wanting to make it work, can create the genuine opportunity to make it last

Heineken Helen

JordyWordy wrote:

exactly. Policy starts from the top up and as little changes are made the majority begin to see the benefits of living in a peaceful country which respects the rights of each side, and eventually the public attitude turns against the dissidents and violence.

making that "one decision" like catefrances said, and both sides wanting to make it work, can create the genuine opportunity to make it last

Yip... and plenty of people on both sides will die between now and then cos some people don't know any other way... but at least there will be an end in sight... rather than it continuing indefinitely! The way it's going will have no happy ending.

sweetpotato

JordyWordy wrote:

ahh good stuff, thats the exact point of the Ireland analogy that sparked so much trouble a few pages back!



Yeah, there are threads i read here which can grossly oversimplify issues sometimes. "You can only pick right or wrong you know" attitude
The world is made of chalk and cheese to some people. Makes for good debate though!

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible. but the thread poses the question, what is WRONG with israel? (i'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, am i right?). seems pretty one-sided to me, no? and the thread starter is an america-hater from the wonderfully diverse and truly enlightened island of ireland, which has so many lessons to teach us, right? like about living peacefully with ONE other group for years... oh, yeah, they couldn't manage that. let's see. oh, here's one- like showing religious tolerance... oops, failed at that, too. hmmm. i'm at a loss. what exactly does ireland contribute, aside from thousands of immigrants and now millions of native-born americans? imagine that! a country who opened its arms to you, and certainly still does, and we suck! talk about ingrates.

i just think that if the criticism was coming from a country that HASN'T greatly benefitted from america's willingness to open its borders and spend lots of cash all around the world, it might be a little easier to swallow. unfortunately, there aren't many countries who fit that description.

sweetpotato

Heineken Helen wrote:

thanks... I've given up defending my anti-americanism :rolleyes: how many times can I tell these people that I fucking love your country and WANT it to be the great and moral leader that it can and should be. However it's being ruined by those who lead it and that's just sad, really really sad!

and so do we, but if you really feel that way, why do you feel the need to bash us every chance you get?

sweetpotato

Heineken Helen wrote:

We've learned PLENTY from it... that's why we empathise with the palestinians... cos they're the ones who are right now going through what we went through. And I'm pretty sure every one of us Irish people posting here said we've nothing against Israelis... but just want them to stop doing what they're doing to the Palestinians... and I wish nothing but peace for ALL of them. Hmm... and of course there's no diversity in Ireland :rolleyes: why don't you come here some day? If you're looking for directions in Dublin... it's a 50/50 chance of finding someone who speaks English. All your 'diversity' are now Americans... the diversity we know is from the source... people who have come DIRECTLY from these countries. Yes, immigration in Ireland is a relatively new thing... about 20 years now... but we certainly have it. Most newspapers have Polish supplements these days. On the building site I work on, our induction sheets are copied in about 20 different languages... so don't tell me we know nothing about diversity.

that still implies that you assume you and the palestinians were/are the wronged parties and therefore somewhat blameless.

as far as this newfound diversity, that's fabulous. welcome to the 21st century.

Abookamongstthemany

sweetpotato wrote:

actually, if anyone paid any attention to the actual substance of what i said, i said that both sides are responsible. but the thread poses the question, what is WRONG with israel? (i'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist, am i right?). seems pretty one-sided to me, no? and the thread starter is an america-hater from the wonderfully diverse and truly enlightened island of ireland, which has so many lessons to teach us, right? like about living peacefully with ONE other group for years... oh, yeah, they couldn't manage that. let's see. oh, here's one- like showing religious tolerance... oops, failed at that, too. hmmm. i'm at a loss. what exactly does ireland contribute, aside from thousands of immigrants and now millions of native-born americans? imagine that! a country who opened its arms to you, and certainly still does, and we suck! talk about ingrates.

i just think that if the criticism was coming from a country that HASN'T greatly benefitted from america's willingness to open its borders and spend lots of cash all around the world, it might be a little easier to swallow. unfortunately, there aren't many countries who fit that description.

Why does criticism of American foreign policy always have to equal hating America?
And why does that make the Irish ingrates? They should have to agree with our official stance on Israel to still be considered grateful??

sweetpotato

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Why does criticism of American foreign policy always have to equal hating America?
And why does that make the Irish ingrates? They should have to agree with our official stance on Israel to still be considered grateful??

no, but her incessant criticism is fucking irritating. we;re far from perfect, but we're still pretty great. don't you agree? do you enjoy being shit on constantly by non-americans??