The answer is all of the above. Its not just one entity. Its ALL. Can the band take less? Do they sign off on the deal? The answer is yes. Is TM a factor? Absolutely.
But why should they? Nobody knows how much they make, and its really none of our business. I'm positive they could make a lot more. That is for sure. 40 tour dates. Should they cut it down to $40k a piece? $100k each? A million each? Or do they deserve $40 mm each?
At the end of the day it just becomes a model/formula. They need to make X amount of money to pay the band, the promoter, the venue etc. Everything gets backed out from that number. Couldn't ticketmaster and the venue and the promoter take less too? The answer is also yes, but they don't have too. They have the leverage.
So then it comes back to the band. And just like we all take pay cuts at our jobs for the good of the company and other employees and customers, they could absolutely do the same. Oh wait, none of us do that. But we should expect others too? It sure is easy to spend and judge other peoples finances.
To some people the band can't do anything wrong. PJ Premium is horseshit but I just bought a pair for almost $1,3000 and they are above 100 level. I know I don't have to pay it, but otherwise I'm way up top for almost as much money or I don't go. $1,300 for a pair of tickets that are worse than I would get with my 10c #. 25 years in the club for them to gouge me with the equivalent of scalped tickets, tickets that used to be fan club tickets every tour. I'm probably checking out after this tour but I needed to finally hit my 50th show. There aren't enough tickets, but there really aren't enough for the 10c sale when they save those seats pulled out to be legally scalped to their fans. Tell me I'm an asshole for paying that much but they gave me no choice.
Your choice was to wait and see how the market adjusts in the six months until the show. There will be other opportunities for tickets.
All your comments are telling people it's their fault and this is all normal. Is this Tim from 10c burner account?
I don't know who that is. If you bought $1,300 tickets, that was a choice you made. No one forced you. Sadly, it is normal for ticket prices to be inflated initially and for ticketmaster to create an artificial sense of scarcity to induce people to overpay. These are standard ticketmaster sales tactics. Prices often (not always) decline after the initial sale.
Hey I love reading your comments over the years and your optimism helped me put a hold on a Baltimore hotel hopin that a f2f will open up there, or a premium for under $300. But I do not believe this f2f strategy works for NE indoor shows. Yet I still have that hotel hold!!
As I’ve been typing alot the last day, we need to change the narrative, it’s not TM that drives up prices, it’s the specific PJ policies that drive prices higher than any other act that I can find besides Taylor. Their policies limit supply and expand demand, which skyrocket broker prices, then they use that data to skyrocket PJPremium prices.
It will be interesting to see if the "F2F strategy" works for the NE indoor shows (as a Maryland native, I'd call Baltimore mid-atlantic but I'm assuming we're talking about MSG, Phiily, and B'more). In 2020 I had some nice lower-level F2F scores for Baltimore even though it was the only east coast show available on F2F (MSG was not on the F2F platform at the time). That was before PJ had embraced the premium model but it will invariably be the case that some members cannot attend and will put up their seats on F2F. I was skeptical that the F2F strategy would work for Chicago last year given the option to sell on stubhub for profit but quite a few people here scored GA and other prime seats. MSG is on another level so it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Last year for the Cure shows at MSG I thought it would be difficult to find anything good for face but it really wasn't. The Cure played three nights instead of two and did not have dynamic pricing, and I think they intentionally held back standard tickets that they would release periodically and quite a few on show day, possibly to thwart scalpers. On show day there were many face value standard tickets available in good lower bowl sections. Friends of mine scored front row on the floor just by checking for standard drops. So I'm remaining optimistic for now.
PJ's policies play a role but so does the standard TM playbook. I see a lot of shows with sky high prices. It's even more pronounced with baby boomer era acts. The first few rows for the Eagles, Billy Joel, etc. are usually $2k. A couple of weeks ago I bought front row Eagles tickets on show day on stubhub for $350 apiece. Once they were transferred to my TM account I clicked the sell button out of curiosity and the minimum price it would let me list them was $1,750 apiece. I take it that was the original sale price.
My thought is there was likely some negotiation that had to take place to be able to get as many fanclub tickets as possible. Ticketmaster has been trying to wrestle back fan club allotments for the past 20 years. Almost all of the venues are in business with Ticketmaster so you can just say give us every seat or we’ll play somewhere else. It didn’t work out great when they tried that on the No Code tour. So they have to negotiate. TM prob says we will give you this many fan club tix but we want 10% to be PJ premium and so they sign off on it. By all accounts it seems like a ton of the best tix are still going to fan club members.
Now the standard pricing I think could use a little work. Who knows what goes into determining the price but I think they could alleviate some of the issues by having more pricing tiers. A GA ticket should cost more than one on the back of the floor or lower bowl. An upper deck ticket should cost less. So split that into 4 or more tiers. Make GA 250 a ticket, Front lowers 200, back lowers 150, upper deck 100 etc… however the math ends up working out. Let people pick which levels they are comfortable paying up to and whatever level you end up getting in the lotto that’s what you pay. I think a lot of people didn’t pick P2 as an option in the drawing because either 1 they didn’t want to pay almost the same price for an upper deck ticket as a GA ticket or 2 because they just assumed they would find a better ticket in the regular or fan to fan sale and it could become difficult to offload a P2 ticket if the demand wasn’t high enough because you can’t sell for a loss. F2F is a nice option to have but should also be able to let people sell for less than what they paid if the demand for their show isn’t as high as others.
I've often wondered if they have to do some sort of deal with TM in order secure enough fanclub seats per show. Does any other band have a similar fanclub structure to PJ?
And I totally agree they should start staggering the prices based on seat location. It shouldn't be almost $200 for upper desk AND up front.
U2, GnR, and Iron Maiden to name a few. Rage Against the Machine doesn't have a fan club but did everything they could to keep the vast majority of the prices down even if it meant they had to let a small percent go dynamic pricing.
I drew a line in 2016, when tickets were $85 and would not pay a dime over, I never in a millon years thought that 8 years later, they would be over $200 a ticket
I never thought I'd pay more than $5 for a McDonalds meal. But here we are. $12-13 the last time I went. It was $3.24 in 91.
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go.
Don't tell me how the premium pricing works.
I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans. I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. Ideal scenario: -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter. -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
I drew a line in 2016, when tickets were $85 and would not pay a dime over, I never in a millon years thought that 8 years later, they would be over $200 a ticket
I never thought I'd pay more than $5 for a McDonalds meal. But here we are. $12-13 the last time I went. It was $3.24 in 91.
My thought is there was likely some negotiation that had to take place to be able to get as many fanclub tickets as possible. Ticketmaster has been trying to wrestle back fan club allotments for the past 20 years. Almost all of the venues are in business with Ticketmaster so you can just say give us every seat or we’ll play somewhere else. It didn’t work out great when they tried that on the No Code tour. So they have to negotiate. TM prob says we will give you this many fan club tix but we want 10% to be PJ premium and so they sign off on it. By all accounts it seems like a ton of the best tix are still going to fan club members.
Now the standard pricing I think could use a little work. Who knows what goes into determining the price but I think they could alleviate some of the issues by having more pricing tiers. A GA ticket should cost more than one on the back of the floor or lower bowl. An upper deck ticket should cost less. So split that into 4 or more tiers. Make GA 250 a ticket, Front lowers 200, back lowers 150, upper deck 100 etc… however the math ends up working out. Let people pick which levels they are comfortable paying up to and whatever level you end up getting in the lotto that’s what you pay. I think a lot of people didn’t pick P2 as an option in the drawing because either 1 they didn’t want to pay almost the same price for an upper deck ticket as a GA ticket or 2 because they just assumed they would find a better ticket in the regular or fan to fan sale and it could become difficult to offload a P2 ticket if the demand wasn’t high enough because you can’t sell for a loss. F2F is a nice option to have but should also be able to let people sell for less than what they paid if the demand for their show isn’t as high as others.
I've often wondered if they have to do some sort of deal with TM in order secure enough fanclub seats per show. Does any other band have a similar fanclub structure to PJ?
And I totally agree they should start staggering the prices based on seat location. It shouldn't be almost $200 for upper desk AND up front.
U2, GnR, and Iron Maiden to name a few. Rage Against the Machine doesn't have a fan club but did everything they could to keep the vast majority of the prices down even if it meant they had to let a small percent go dynamic pricing.
My thought is there was likely some negotiation that had to take place to be able to get as many fanclub tickets as possible. Ticketmaster has been trying to wrestle back fan club allotments for the past 20 years. Almost all of the venues are in business with Ticketmaster so you can just say give us every seat or we’ll play somewhere else. It didn’t work out great when they tried that on the No Code tour. So they have to negotiate. TM prob says we will give you this many fan club tix but we want 10% to be PJ premium and so they sign off on it. By all accounts it seems like a ton of the best tix are still going to fan club members.
Now the standard pricing I think could use a little work. Who knows what goes into determining the price but I think they could alleviate some of the issues by having more pricing tiers. A GA ticket should cost more than one on the back of the floor or lower bowl. An upper deck ticket should cost less. So split that into 4 or more tiers. Make GA 250 a ticket, Front lowers 200, back lowers 150, upper deck 100 etc… however the math ends up working out. Let people pick which levels they are comfortable paying up to and whatever level you end up getting in the lotto that’s what you pay. I think a lot of people didn’t pick P2 as an option in the drawing because either 1 they didn’t want to pay almost the same price for an upper deck ticket as a GA ticket or 2 because they just assumed they would find a better ticket in the regular or fan to fan sale and it could become difficult to offload a P2 ticket if the demand wasn’t high enough because you can’t sell for a loss. F2F is a nice option to have but should also be able to let people sell for less than what they paid if the demand for their show isn’t as high as others.
I've often wondered if they have to do some sort of deal with TM in order secure enough fanclub seats per show. Does any other band have a similar fanclub structure to PJ?
And I totally agree they should start staggering the prices based on seat location. It shouldn't be almost $200 for upper desk AND up front.
U2, GnR, and Iron Maiden to name a few. Rage Against the Machine doesn't have a fan club but did everything they could to keep the vast majority of the prices down even if it meant they had to let a small percent go dynamic pricing.
Are there any other bands that seat their fanclub members based on seniority?
I don't think so
Dave Matthews Band is the only other one i know of, but i’m sure there’s others.
But they get a significantly smaller allotment of Warehouse tickets than PJ does-because PJ demands it. And they don’t cap Official Platinum tickets and they don’t do F2F. Also they play a lot of shows every year, so demand (outside of SPAC and a few other select shows/weekends) isn’t anywhere near the same level.
I think 10c did still get a ton of great seats for most shows but yes there are PJ premiums spread throughout each section. They told us up front these would make up about 10% of the tickets. You should never buy PJ premiums, but if you need that guarantee so that you can arrange travel and hotel you should still never buy them in the first week of going on sale. They are designed to make you think nothing else will be available so you better get them now before prices get even worse. There will be other opportunities, and even places like stub hub have tix cheaper than the pj premium right now.
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day off, and it happened in 2023.
I checked both of those shows many times up to 4pm, and msg never dropped below 480 for blocked view ceiling tickets, and Camden 700. If fans are willing to wait til closer to show time that’s great , but it’s not a reasonable way to buy tickets.
Unless fans want to play the f5 games for hours a day, these east coast indoor tickets do not appear. And the f5 game is a very expensive cost…time is money.
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go.
Don't tell me how the premium pricing works.
I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans. I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. Ideal scenario: -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter. -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
You’re mistaken. A verified fan code was required but rows of lower bowl premium MSG were being released at standard pricing. You obviously weren’t in the mix but this was happening day of. For Camden it was happening day prior. At no point was I telling you how premium pricing works but having said you claimed “good and reasonably priced” tickets aren’t going to appear so I corrected you.
The rest of your argument is emotion driven.
To quote the 10C from Newsletter #8: "Please understand we have a lot of members and it is very hard to please everybody. If you are one of those unhappy people...please call 1-900-IDN-TCAR."
"Me knowing the truth, I can not concur."
1996: Toronto - 1998: Chicago, Montreal, Barrie - 2000: Montreal, Toronto - 2002: Seattle X2 (Key Arena) - 2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, Seattle (Benaroya Hall) - 2004: Reading, Toledo, Grand Rapids - 2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Quebec City - 2006: Toronto X2, Albany, Hartford, Grand Rapids, Cleveland - 2007: Chicago (Vic Theatre) - 2008: NYC X2, Hartford, Mansfield X2 - 2009: Toronto, Chicago X2, Seattle X2, Philadelphia X4 - 2010: Columbus, Noblesville, Cleveland, Buffalo, Hartford - 2011: Montreal, Toronto X2, Ottawa, Hamilton - 2012: Missoula - 2013: London, Chicago, Buffalo, Hartford - 2014: Detroit, Moline - 2015: NYC (Global Citizen Festival) - 2016: Greenville, Toronto X2, Chicago 1 - 2017: Brooklyn (RRHOF Induction) - 2018: Chicago 1, Boston 1 - 2022: Fresno, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, NYC, Camden - 2023: St. Paul X2, Austin X2 - 2024: Vancouver X2, Portland, Sacramento, Missoula, Noblesville, Philadelphia X2, Baltimore
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
It happens every show although MSG can be unpredictable, sometime they are available, sometimes not. But for other shows, face value tickets can be had with a little effort.
To some people the band can't do anything wrong. PJ Premium is horseshit but I just bought a pair for almost $1,3000 and they are above 100 level. I know I don't have to pay it, but otherwise I'm way up top for almost as much money or I don't go. $1,300 for a pair of tickets that are worse than I would get with my 10c #. 25 years in the club for them to gouge me with the equivalent of scalped tickets, tickets that used to be fan club tickets every tour. I'm probably checking out after this tour but I needed to finally hit my 50th show. There aren't enough tickets, but there really aren't enough for the 10c sale when they save those seats pulled out to be legally scalped to their fans. Tell me I'm an asshole for paying that much but they gave me no choice.
Your choice was to wait and see how the market adjusts in the six months until the show. There will be other opportunities for tickets.
All your comments are telling people it's their fault and this is all normal. Is this Tim from 10c burner account?
I don't know who that is. If you bought $1,300 tickets, that was a choice you made. No one forced you. Sadly, it is normal for ticket prices to be inflated initially and for ticketmaster to create an artificial sense of scarcity to induce people to overpay. These are standard ticketmaster sales tactics. Prices often (not always) decline after the initial sale.
Hey I love reading your comments over the years and your optimism helped me put a hold on a Baltimore hotel hopin that a f2f will open up there, or a premium for under $300. But I do not believe this f2f strategy works for NE indoor shows. Yet I still have that hotel hold!!
As I’ve been typing alot the last day, we need to change the narrative, it’s not TM that drives up prices, it’s the specific PJ policies that drive prices higher than any other act that I can find besides Taylor. Their policies limit supply and expand demand, which skyrocket broker prices, then they use that data to skyrocket PJPremium prices.
It will be interesting to see if the "F2F strategy" works for the NE indoor shows (as a Maryland native, I'd call Baltimore mid-atlantic but I'm assuming we're talking about MSG, Phiily, and B'more). In 2020 I had some nice lower-level F2F scores for Baltimore even though it was the only east coast show available on F2F (MSG was not on the F2F platform at the time). That was before PJ had embraced the premium model but it will invariably be the case that some members cannot attend and will put up their seats on F2F. I was skeptical that the F2F strategy would work for Chicago last year given the option to sell on stubhub for profit but quite a few people here scored GA and other prime seats. MSG is on another level so it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Last year for the Cure shows at MSG I thought it would be difficult to find anything good for face but it really wasn't. The Cure played three nights instead of two and did not have dynamic pricing, and I think they intentionally held back standard tickets that they would release periodically and quite a few on show day, possibly to thwart scalpers. On show day there were many face value standard tickets available in good lower bowl sections. Friends of mine scored front row on the floor just by checking for standard drops. So I'm remaining optimistic for now.
PJ's policies play a role but so does the standard TM playbook. I see a lot of shows with sky high prices. It's even more pronounced with baby boomer era acts. The first few rows for the Eagles, Billy Joel, etc. are usually $2k. A couple of weeks ago I bought front row Eagles tickets on show day on stubhub for $350 apiece. Once they were transferred to my TM account I clicked the sell button out of curiosity and the minimum price it would let me list them was $1,750 apiece. I take it that was the original sale price.
Like I said you are the reason I got optimistic and put a hold on a Baltimore hotel. I have hope. But wasn’t that 2020 show famous for round the clock f5ing?
holding back standard priced tickets is another in an endless line of policies that hurt New Yorkers, because they never do that here. When they do it for out of town shows,we can’t get to the venue in time, so it’s just another way we NYers get hurt by the supply and demand games PJ plays with its ticketing policies that drive up resale and PJPrem prices.
using seat geek,decent NE (non stadium) seats for..,
Billy Joel, $491
Eagles,Chi $526
Neil Young $296
Zach Bryan $442
Drake $503
RHCP, VA $472
Rolling Stones, MetLife lowers, $443
PJ MSG, any ticket 200s row 7 and lower, …. One ticket at $836, every other over $1000.
PJ, other NE indoor venues, decent seats, most over $500
Pearl Jam has ticket policies that limit supply and increase demand. It is obvious their ticket policies drive up prices on the broker sites, which drove up PJPrem..
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
"Pearl Jam has ticket policies that limit supply and increase demand. It is obvious their ticket policies drive up prices on the broker sites, which drove up PJPrem."
Thats totally fair. But what would you propose as a solution? Its clearly pretty complicated.
I guarantee having tix be $250 each (or more) with no premium wouldn't be welcomed with open arms. Nor would $500 pit tix. Tiered pricing = more profit on cheaper seats. Its complicated.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? All parties? Its all accounted for either way.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
More the former. Savvy people will wait it out but they will sell plenty of premium tickets to others as their desire or compulsion is different. "If we all band together and refuse to blah blah blah" doesn't work.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? Its all accounted for either way.
I guess that's' my point. All the standard tickets are gone. Its not like they can come back and say "Hey, we never got that premium subsidy. We need you to cough up some more on those tickets we sold you earlier." - I guess the only solution if that subsidy isn't recouped is to charge even more on the next tour (for standard tickets).
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? Its all accounted for either way.
I guess that's' my point. All the standard tickets are gone. Its not like they can come back and say "Hey, we never got that premium subsidy. We need you to cough up some more on those tickets we sold you earlier." - I guess the only solution if that subsidy isn't recouped is to charge even more on the next tour (for standard tickets).
Assuming the above is all on the up and up.
But it could be as simple as. "we didn't get the premium minimum, so you don't get your full fee". I don't see TM, the venue, or the promoter having to take less. But who knows.
The problem with trying to buy tickets these days is that the entire sales platform is built to maximize profit, at the expense of the consumer. TM has been slowly refining how they milk consumers for years, and it's totally reasonable that the artists themselves would feel like they deserve their fair share of the *additional* revenue being generated by the price manipulating shenanigans. I'm not saying Pearl Jam (or PJ management) is 100% blameless in all of this; they're not. But they're also not 100% at fault. I assume they've just decided, with 30+ years under their belts, that maybe they don't want to fight the system anymore to the degree that they have in the past. That's their prerogative; and it's anybody else's prerogative to cancel their 10c membership, skip the shows, etc... I hate this is what buying concert tickets has become, but sadly it has.
That said, here are my suggestions for "fixing" things, some of which are most likely not realistic, but I like the thought exercise:
1. The public allotment of tickets for each show should be available upfront at static prices.
There will still inevitably be production hold tickets which become available very close to the show... band holds, VIPs, additional seats based on the actual production setup. And there will still be tickets available at premium prices from the first moment the show goes on sale. But artificially constraining supply upfront (by not making certain seats available) so that you can lure anxious fans into buying the only *available* tickets at premium prices is absolute garbage. At least with Seattle, I watched some ticket prices go from $175-185 to hundreds more, and I watched new rows of Pearl Jam Premium magically appear at the same price as better Pearl Jam Premium that just sold. You can't argue that dynamic and/or premium pricing help ensure that the artists get fair market value and at the same time artificially constrain supply to facilitate higher-priced purchases. That's literally having your cake and eating it too.
The downside to this framework is that, by necessity, many of the best tickets would need to be priced much higher right out of the gate. And that sucks, but it does seem like the only viable alternative to the current system which would ensure that the artists are still capitalizing (fairly) on the value of their art... which bring us to #s 2 and 3.
2. More pricing tiers
Die-hards will hate this, but GAs, first 5 rows of the floor, and the best lowers should 100% be more than a $10 premium over the worst seat in the house. Bump GAs up to $250, best lowers and floors to $220, make add'l lowers and floors maybe $175, best uppers $150-ish, and then let some fans/families who don't want to drop a whole paycheck on a concert sit in the nosebleeds or behind the stage for $100 or less.
3. Make 10c the only place to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing
This is also going to be controversial, but it's clear Pearl Jam is onboard with the premium pricing game... so in the spirit of #1, and to stop all the whining about 10c's value these days... hold ~20% of GA, best lowers, and best floors out of the 10c lottery, and only make those available in the public sales at ridiculous prices. Is this going to price people out? Absolutely. But what are you going to do? Demand for these seats drastically outweighs supply, and that's not going to change any time soon. So enter the 10C Lottery. If you win, you get to buy a ticket at 10c-only pricing. If you don't win, and you want one of those seats, your options are F2F from another 10C member or pay the premium price. Side note: 10c accounts are linked to TM for sake of the lottery, right? So couldn't they also ensure that only 10c members can buy F2F tickets from other 10c members? That would reduce the competition for those F2F tickets at the lower prices and also increase the value of a 10c membership.
4. Bring back show prioritization Especially if prices are going up across the board and 10c represents a unique opportunity to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing, you simply can't have a situation where some people go 5/5 or better with one of those shows representing someone else's 0/1. As the value of winning the lottery increases, you need to ensure a more equitable distribution of wins.
--- These changes obviously wouldn't result in a perfect system; they're just my best stab at a framework that would provide transparency, benefit 10c members, and still allow for a decent amount of "premium" revenue to be captured by the band. At the end of the day, I think most people could get on board, even if reluctantly, with any transparent system. The biggest issue with the current sales is that they're the opposite of transparent. No explanation of how the lottery drawing is run, no visibility (non-personally-identifiable) into the distribution of tickets by membership number across shows, no clarity on the regular vs premium pricing distribution or the criteria by which prices may change dynamically. I could go on and on. Admittedly 10c doesn't owe anybody anything wrt the above; they just shouldn't be shocked when people assume the worst in the absence of information.
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go.
Don't tell me how the premium pricing works.
I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans. I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. Ideal scenario: -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter. -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
Got tix for MSG refreshing on here for an hour or so about 4 hours before the show. Ditto in 2016.
PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? Its all accounted for either way.
I guess that's' my point. All the standard tickets are gone. Its not like they can come back and say "Hey, we never got that premium subsidy. We need you to cough up some more on those tickets we sold you earlier." - I guess the only solution if that subsidy isn't recouped is to charge even more on the next tour (for standard tickets).
Assuming the above is all on the up and up.
That's how I see it. By it's nature, the amount that will come from from a dynamic pricing model is somewhat unpredictable. But they probably have some estimate based on the entire tour. If Premium sales far exceed expectations, they aren't going to say "well, the premiums subsidized the regular tickets even more than we expected, here's a partial refund." If there's a shortfall relative to estimates, maybe it's addressed in the contract or adjusted on the next tour. Maybe they release more premiums at a lower price point. But whatever the sales turn out to be has the effect of subsidizing everything else.
Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.
It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go.
Don't tell me how the premium pricing works.
I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans. I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. Ideal scenario: -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter. -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
Got tix for MSG refreshing on here for an hour or so about 4 hours before the show. Ditto in 2016.
That's what I want to be doing day of the show. Refreshing.
Man I used to play the StubHub game all the time before I had a kid. Go out near the venue for dinner/drinks and just keep refreshing looking for a deal. If you're unsuccessful just continue the night out. But I had like a 75% hit rate. You still come out ahead if you took your lumps on the other 25%,
There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.
These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?
There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.
These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?
How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham?
There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.
These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?
How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham?
I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.
These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?
How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham?
I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
Yeah Berlin and Barcelona are selling terribly too.
Comments
But why should they? Nobody knows how much they make, and its really none of our business. I'm positive they could make a lot more. That is for sure. 40 tour dates. Should they cut it down to $40k a piece? $100k each? A million each? Or do they deserve $40 mm each?
At the end of the day it just becomes a model/formula. They need to make X amount of money to pay the band, the promoter, the venue etc. Everything gets backed out from that number. Couldn't ticketmaster and the venue and the promoter take less too? The answer is also yes, but they don't have too. They have the leverage.
So then it comes back to the band. And just like we all take pay cuts at our jobs for the good of the company and other employees and customers, they could absolutely do the same. Oh wait, none of us do that. But we should expect others too? It sure is easy to spend and judge other peoples finances.
PJ's policies play a role but so does the standard TM playbook. I see a lot of shows with sky high prices. It's even more pronounced with baby boomer era acts. The first few rows for the Eagles, Billy Joel, etc. are usually $2k. A couple of weeks ago I bought front row Eagles tickets on show day on stubhub for $350 apiece. Once they were transferred to my TM account I clicked the sell button out of curiosity and the minimum price it would let me list them was $1,750 apiece. I take it that was the original sale price.
Don't tell me how the premium pricing works.
I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans.
I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it.
Ideal scenario:
-put GA out there for any 10c member to enter.
-P1 & P2 is all seniority based.
-They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Unless fans want to play the f5 games for hours a day, these east coast indoor tickets do not appear. And the f5 game is a very expensive cost…time is money.
The rest of your argument is emotion driven.
"Me knowing the truth, I can not concur."
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It happens every show although MSG can be unpredictable, sometime they are available, sometimes not. But for other shows, face value tickets can be had with a little effort.
holding back standard priced tickets is another in an endless line of policies that hurt New Yorkers, because they never do that here. When they do it for out of town shows,we can’t get to the venue in time, so it’s just another way we NYers get hurt by the supply and demand games PJ plays with its ticketing policies that drive up resale and PJPrem prices.
using seat geek,decent NE (non stadium) seats for..,
Billy Joel, $491
Eagles,Chi $526
Neil Young $296
Zach Bryan $442
Drake $503
RHCP, VA $472
Rolling Stones, MetLife lowers, $443
PJ MSG, any ticket 200s row 7 and lower, …. One ticket at $836, every other over $1000.
PJ, other NE indoor venues, decent seats, most over $500
Pearl Jam has ticket policies that limit supply and increase demand. It is obvious their ticket policies drive up prices on the broker sites, which drove up PJPrem..
Thats totally fair. But what would you propose as a solution? Its clearly pretty complicated.
I guarantee having tix be $250 each (or more) with no premium wouldn't be welcomed with open arms. Nor would $500 pit tix. Tiered pricing = more profit on cheaper seats. Its complicated.
If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
That said, here are my suggestions for "fixing" things, some of which are most likely not realistic, but I like the thought exercise:
1. The public allotment of tickets for each show should be available upfront at static prices.
There will still inevitably be production hold tickets which become available very close to the show... band holds, VIPs, additional seats based on the actual production setup. And there will still be tickets available at premium prices from the first moment the show goes on sale. But artificially constraining supply upfront (by not making certain seats available) so that you can lure anxious fans into buying the only *available* tickets at premium prices is absolute garbage. At least with Seattle, I watched some ticket prices go from $175-185 to hundreds more, and I watched new rows of Pearl Jam Premium magically appear at the same price as better Pearl Jam Premium that just sold. You can't argue that dynamic and/or premium pricing help ensure that the artists get fair market value and at the same time artificially constrain supply to facilitate higher-priced purchases. That's literally having your cake and eating it too.
The downside to this framework is that, by necessity, many of the best tickets would need to be priced much higher right out of the gate. And that sucks, but it does seem like the only viable alternative to the current system which would ensure that the artists are still capitalizing (fairly) on the value of their art... which bring us to #s 2 and 3.
2. More pricing tiers
Die-hards will hate this, but GAs, first 5 rows of the floor, and the best lowers should 100% be more than a $10 premium over the worst seat in the house. Bump GAs up to $250, best lowers and floors to $220, make add'l lowers and floors maybe $175, best uppers $150-ish, and then let some fans/families who don't want to drop a whole paycheck on a concert sit in the nosebleeds or behind the stage for $100 or less.
3. Make 10c the only place to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing
This is also going to be controversial, but it's clear Pearl Jam is onboard with the premium pricing game... so in the spirit of #1, and to stop all the whining about 10c's value these days... hold ~20% of GA, best lowers, and best floors out of the 10c lottery, and only make those available in the public sales at ridiculous prices. Is this going to price people out? Absolutely. But what are you going to do? Demand for these seats drastically outweighs supply, and that's not going to change any time soon. So enter the 10C Lottery. If you win, you get to buy a ticket at 10c-only pricing. If you don't win, and you want one of those seats, your options are F2F from another 10C member or pay the premium price. Side note: 10c accounts are linked to TM for sake of the lottery, right? So couldn't they also ensure that only 10c members can buy F2F tickets from other 10c members? That would reduce the competition for those F2F tickets at the lower prices and also increase the value of a 10c membership.
4. Bring back show prioritization
Especially if prices are going up across the board and 10c represents a unique opportunity to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing, you simply can't have a situation where some people go 5/5 or better with one of those shows representing someone else's 0/1. As the value of winning the lottery increases, you need to ensure a more equitable distribution of wins.
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These changes obviously wouldn't result in a perfect system; they're just my best stab at a framework that would provide transparency, benefit 10c members, and still allow for a decent amount of "premium" revenue to be captured by the band. At the end of the day, I think most people could get on board, even if reluctantly, with any transparent system. The biggest issue with the current sales is that they're the opposite of transparent. No explanation of how the lottery drawing is run, no visibility (non-personally-identifiable) into the distribution of tickets by membership number across shows, no clarity on the regular vs premium pricing distribution or the criteria by which prices may change dynamically. I could go on and on. Admittedly 10c doesn't owe anybody anything wrt the above; they just shouldn't be shocked when people assume the worst in the absence of information.
10/7/96 (FL), 9/22/98 (FL), 9/23/98 (FL), 8/9/00 (FL), 8/10/00 (FL), 8/12/00 (FL), 4/11/03 (FL), 4/12/03 (FL), 4/13/03 (FL), 7/8/03 (NY), 7/9/03 (NY), 7/12/03 (PA), 7/14/03 (NJ), 10/8/04 (FL), 8/5/07 (IL), 11/27/12 (FL), 12/6/13 (WA), 4/8/16 (FL), 4/9/16 (FL), 4/11/16 (FL), 8/5/16 (MA), 8/22/16 (IL), 8/8/18 (WA), 8/10/18 (WA), 9/25/21 (CA), 9/26/21 (CA), 5/3/22 (CA), 5/12/22 (CA), 5/13/22 (CA), 9/18/23 (TX), 9/19/23 (TX), 10/23/23 (WA), 10/24/23 (WA), 5/28/24 (WA), 5/30/24 (WA)
These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?