How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
I meant band’s success…but an interesting flip of the scenario. I bet there was some bitterness from the bands when those folks went onto even bigger success solo.
I’d imagine if Dave A latched onto another successful band it would’ve ate at some of PJ boys when their popularity kinda stagnated in early 2000s and/or it possibly would’ve raised the likelihood of a guest spot.
I see, so you're looking for scenarios where someone leaves the band, but the band goes onto great heights without them.
Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd is one....not that Syd probably gave a crap at that point.
Even though they were (in my opinion) a better band with Peter Gabriel, Genesis went on to have a lot of success without him. And even though Van Halen was (in everybody's opinion) a better band with Roth, they had a lot of success without him.
The worst must be leaving or getting kicked out of a band right before they go onto great success. Pete Best, Dave Krusen, Dave Mustaine.
I could be mistaken, but I was always under the impression Krusen quit for personal reasons.
How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
I meant band’s success…but an interesting flip of the scenario. I bet there was some bitterness from the bands when those folks went onto even bigger success solo.
I’d imagine if Dave A latched onto another successful band it would’ve ate at some of PJ boys when their popularity kinda stagnated in early 2000s and/or it possibly would’ve raised the likelihood of a guest spot.
I see, so you're looking for scenarios where someone leaves the band, but the band goes onto great heights without them.
Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd is one....not that Syd probably gave a crap at that point.
Even though they were (in my opinion) a better band with Peter Gabriel, Genesis went on to have a lot of success without him. And even though Van Halen was (in everybody's opinion) a better band with Roth, they had a lot of success without him.
The worst must be leaving or getting kicked out of a band right before they go onto great success. Pete Best, Dave Krusen, Dave Mustaine.
I could be mistaken, but I was always under the impression Krusen quit for personal reasons.
Yeah that’s leaving the band.
Yup... yes it is, missed that part of your comment, thought we were talking about people who were kicked out.
How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
Genesis is a great example. They were a middling UK band until Phil started singing and they went more pop. Then they were absolutely huge.
I actually had the question wrong. I was listing Gabriel as someone that went on to have bigger success without the band. But yeah, the band went on to have bigger success without him as well.
So I don't question their approach to Dave, which as someone said re: Stone's comments, they clearly are not all unified in their views of or feelings about what went down with his departure. But they've figured out how to keep going despite whatever happened, and I hope Dave is figuring out or will figure out a way to do the same. No matter how wronged he feels he was, or still is, and no matter how if ALL the details were publicly known maybe more of us would say "Oh wow, you guys did him WRONG!", no matter any of that, the bottom line is it is HELLA UNHEALTHY and toxic for someone to dwell on something they can't change. Can't change what happened in the past, and can't try to public shame a group of people into doing something in the present or future. I feel bad for him more because of how much this still seems to eat at him than for what actually happened back then, whatever it was. Because today is what he still has power over and he seems to spend a lot of his todays being bitter about yesterday.
For someone talking about "not having an idea of the full scope" of things you have no problems even coming to the conclusion that something is "HELLA UNHEALTHY" with caps.
Draw up a timeline from 1994 to now, and how much has Dave A even talked about Pearl Jam publicly?
Throwing out a snide comment now and then about someone who pulled a rug from underneath your feet and "wronged" you isn't dwelling, it's normal human behavior. No matter if it is 30 years ago. Thank god for people sniding in this world and not trying to lie themselves into some utopian Dr. Phil-way to live ones life. I would be fucking scared being around someone with that attitude regarding their exes, or a shitty boss or whatever parallel one would draw. Just snide like a normal person.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
I meant band’s success…but an interesting flip of the scenario. I bet there was some bitterness from the bands when those folks went onto even bigger success solo.
I’d imagine if Dave A latched onto another successful band it would’ve ate at some of PJ boys when their popularity kinda stagnated in early 2000s and/or it possibly would’ve raised the likelihood of a guest spot.
I see, so you're looking for scenarios where someone leaves the band, but the band goes onto great heights without them.
Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd is one....not that Syd probably gave a crap at that point.
Even though they were (in my opinion) a better band with Peter Gabriel, Genesis went on to have a lot of success without him. And even though Van Halen was (in everybody's opinion) a better band with Roth, they had a lot of success without him.
The worst must be leaving or getting kicked out of a band right before they go onto great success. Pete Best, Dave Krusen, Dave Mustaine.
I could be mistaken, but I was always under the impression Krusen quit for personal reasons.
Alcoholism I believe, from interviews with him and PJ. Could be wrong.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Would anyone here not pay to see a show with a guaranteed short Dave A reunion set?
Sure I'd pay. but I wouldn't pay anymore than for any other PJ show. In fact, market wise I'd pay less. Who knows if he's any good anymore.
Maybe he could have some undisclosed problem stopping him from enduring hours of drumming. But I don't find this being "not good" from listening in my employer-provided office headphones. Sounds good enough to me to step up and give him a call and personally and honestly invite him to come drum on RVM or SOLAT at the RnR HoF induction. Showing up at a concert for a song or two is not happening obviously - NOT IN THIS LIFETIME as Axl said about playing with Slash again.
So I don't question their approach to Dave, which as someone said re: Stone's comments, they clearly are not all unified in their views of or feelings about what went down with his departure. But they've figured out how to keep going despite whatever happened, and I hope Dave is figuring out or will figure out a way to do the same. No matter how wronged he feels he was, or still is, and no matter how if ALL the details were publicly known maybe more of us would say "Oh wow, you guys did him WRONG!", no matter any of that, the bottom line is it is HELLA UNHEALTHY and toxic for someone to dwell on something they can't change. Can't change what happened in the past, and can't try to public shame a group of people into doing something in the present or future. I feel bad for him more because of how much this still seems to eat at him than for what actually happened back then, whatever it was. Because today is what he still has power over and he seems to spend a lot of his todays being bitter about yesterday.
For someone talking about "not having an idea of the full scope" of things you have no problems even coming to the conclusion that something is "HELLA UNHEALTHY" with caps.
Draw up a timeline from 1994 to now, and how much has Dave A even talked about Pearl Jam publicly?
Throwing out a snide comment now and then about someone who pulled a rug from underneath your feet and "wronged" you isn't dwelling, it's normal human behavior. No matter if it is 30 years ago. Thank god for people sniding in this world and not trying to lie themselves into some utopian Dr. Phil-way to live ones life. I would be fucking scared being around someone with that attitude regarding their exes, or a shitty boss or whatever parallel one would draw. Just snide like a normal person.
Gotta love it when someone accuses someone else of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions who then goes on to write nothing BUT assumptions and jumped-to conclusions. Alrighty then.
When you say "Thank god for people sniding in this world and not trying to lie themselves into some utopian Dr. Phil-way to live one's life", why don't you take your own advice about what you know and don't know and how easily you jump to a conclusion. I've spent 15+ years working with child abuse victims, all kinds of abuse. I know 15 yrs worth of examples of some of the most horrible things 1 human can and does do to another, and children no less. And you're going to reduce my comment (which I stand by 1000%) that it's unhealthy to dwell on something you can't change) as "Utopian Dr. Phil ways of living one's life"... Interesting. I'll simply say you're talking to one of the least "utopian" people on this planet. But I'm also a realist, and I'd love to know what you disagree with about me saying it's toxic and unhealthy to dwell on what you can't change. What about that statement is not true?
The fact that you don't think Dave A is "dwelling, or unhealthy" in his public comments over YEARS about this topic is your right and you clearly have very strong feelings about it. Cool.
However what you cannot delete or try to discredit with accusations of "utopian sensibilities" is the clear record of public comments Dave has made over years that show he still has strong feelings about it and still spends time voicing publicly that he wants it to change, as evidenced today by the comment you yourself posted. He wants to change his dynamic and relationship to the band, and he says it clearly, publicly, repeatedly, over the years. No utopia-shaming by you changes what is out there in public record for everyone to read.
So many different views here on who did what, what was justified and what wasn't, what the right thing to do now is. Cool, like I said, anything involving human relationships is sticky sticky sticky. Rarely simple. Everyone has a right to speaking what they think about a topic involving public figures on a message board (within the rules, of course).
But what you call "normal person snide-ness" in his public comments comes across to me as bitterness that, by asking or commenting publicly about it regularly over decades indicates he has indeed NOT moved on.
"Moving on" doesn't mean you accept the past as "justified" or "fine". It doesn't mean you don't have regrets or aren't still mad at your exes, be they romantic exes, band exes or business exes. And "moving on" doesn't mean you have to "get over it" on someone else's timetable. But since he's a public figure, no one should be surprised that 30 yrs later if he's still commenting on social media that he wishes they'd invite him back to play a couple of full album shows, no one should be surprised that to many that does seem like an unhealthy level of NOT moving on.
And just like you have a right to get all hot and bothered and hypocritical about what is ok and what's not in these conversations, I get to say what I said.
I can honestly say from my heart that I wish Dave A the best. I wish him peace and prosperity, and I hope he finds some work or purpose that turns out to be so compelling and fulfilling, he doesn't have time to be on social media raising the hope of a reunion with PJ. Because I truly, in the deepest parts of my heart and experience, believe THAT is what moving on looks like at its best. Given what you said above, you may well find that the most repulsive level of "utopian Dr. Phil views" there are. So be it. I know what living making the most of today and tomorrow despite real world immense challenges looks like to me, and it's what I hope for & strive for for myself and for everyone else.
Including you. But don't worry, just like you can't catch covid online, I don't think my nasty utopian Dr. Phil-seeming-to-you views are contagious. But then again, I wish they were...
How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
Are you answering the actual question with this list? I didn't think any of those people were "kicked out" of their bands, didn't they all LEAVE those bands? I mean Beyonce, Destiny's Child was HER band! She pretty much went solo, and definitley didn't get kicked out.
Were Peter Gabriel and Ozzy kicked out of Genesis & Black Sabbath? Were Dre or Ice Cube kicked out of NWA?
How many other musicians make such a big deal out of being kicked out of a band 20+ years later? There are likely examples but I don't know any.
I think it’s about as easy naming someone from a band that is successful after their daparture.
There's plenty of examples of that....
Peter Gabriel after leaving Genesis.
Ozzy Osbourne after leaving Black Sabbath.
Dr. Dre and Ice Cube after leaving NWA.
Beyoncé and Justin Timberlake after leaving their respective pop groups.
Are you answering the actual question with this list? I didn't think any of those people were "kicked out" of their bands, didn't they all LEAVE those bands? I mean Beyonce, Destiny's Child was HER band! She pretty much went solo, and definitley didn't get kicked out.
Were Peter Gabriel and Ozzy kicked out of Genesis & Black Sabbath? Were Dre or Ice Cube kicked out of NWA?
Dave Mustaine
Yup, I think we've established in this convo that every question asked in this thread, "Dave Mustaine" is an appropriate answer.
But you're absolutely right, he's an example of being kicked out and having a public grouse about it for decades.
There's a whole other convo we could also have, about musicians who did do well, maybe even really well, but are still bitter that some of their contemporaries did SO MUCH MORE BETTER. Or, better-er. Or whatever the right word is LOL!
A bald guy who headlined the 2nd day of SHN comes to mind... So does the singer of the Boomtown Rats... But that's a very different convo, sorry, off track here...
All I’m saying is, I just wish he would say something nice about Dave.
At the RRHOF speech Ed said he was a “hell of a drummer” in an earnest way.
They just don’t get along personally. I’m sure everyone has someone in their life who they can respect their work but can’t stand to work with them. Hell even family who piss them off but they have to play nice with a few times a year. I don’t think you would subject yourself to being around said people for the remainder of your life’s work. Especially creative, collaborative work.
DC '03 - Reading '04 - Philly '05 - Camden 1 '06 - DC '06 - E. Rutherford '06 - The Vic '07 - Lollapalooza '07 - DC '08 - EV DC 1 & 2 '08 (Met Ed!!) - EV Baltimore 1 & 2 '09 - EV NYC 1 '11 (Met Ed!) - Hartford '13 - GCF '15 - MSG 2 '16 - TOTD MSG '16 - Boston 1 & 2 '18 - SHN '21 - EV NYC 1 & 2 '22 - MSG '22
Also what memorable acts has Dave been in since Pearl Jam?
Guns N' Roses.
Riddle me this Batman -- Name another Pearl Jam member who has been in a band as memorable as Guns N' Roses?
You can define "memorable" how it fits for you, but Soundgarden stands up to GnR, to me.
I am a GnR fan as much as many but as great as Appetite was, give me Badmotorfinger if we can only pick one record between the bands. Also, body of work is no comparison, to me.
Matt was actually part of SG since the mid 80s, as well. I am not a Dave nor GnR scholar but I don't recall him being an actual member of GnR. If he was I don't believe it was for too long.
But Matt was in SG before PJ. So that band is cheating. The question was "since Pearl Jam" started.
TICK
TOCK
He has been in SG after joining pearl Jam also. Batman wins. The Riddler is sent to Arkham.
Was he really "in" GnR? I thought he just did some rehearsals. Did he ever appear on an album or tour?
No, but he made Axl destroy an aquarium when he decided to leave. If I remember Dave A's story correctly.
Let's face it. It probably doesn't take much to get Axl to destroy an aquarium.
I mean, haven’t we all, at some point, made Axl destroy an aquarium?
Also what memorable acts has Dave been in since Pearl Jam?
Guns N' Roses.
Riddle me this Batman -- Name another Pearl Jam member who has been in a band as memorable as Guns N' Roses?
You can define "memorable" how it fits for you, but Soundgarden stands up to GnR, to me.
I am a GnR fan as much as many but as great as Appetite was, give me Badmotorfinger if we can only pick one record between the bands. Also, body of work is no comparison, to me.
Matt was actually part of SG since the mid 80s, as well. I am not a Dave nor GnR scholar but I don't recall him being an actual member of GnR. If he was I don't believe it was for too long.
But Matt was in SG before PJ. So that band is cheating. The question was "since Pearl Jam" started.
TICK
TOCK
He has been in SG after joining pearl Jam also. Batman wins. The Riddler is sent to Arkham.
Was he really "in" GnR? I thought he just did some rehearsals. Did he ever appear on an album or tour?
No, but he made Axl destroy an aquarium when he decided to leave. If I remember Dave A's story correctly.
Let's face it. It probably doesn't take much to get Axl to destroy an aquarium.
I mean, haven’t we all, at some point, made Axl destroy an aquarium?
I'm afraid I was unsuccessful at this. The most I made him do once was throw one of those little baggies of carnival goldfish, poor fish. But no aquariums destroyed by him with me.
They just don’t get along personally. I’m sure everyone has someone in their life who they can respect their work but can’t stand to work with them. Hell even family who piss them off but they have to play nice with a few times a year. I don’t think you would subject yourself to being around said people for the remainder of your life’s work. Especially creative, collaborative work.
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one.
All I’m saying is, I just wish he would say something nice about Dave.
At the RRHOF speech Ed said he was a “hell of a drummer” in an earnest way.
They just don’t get along personally. I’m sure everyone has someone in their life who they can respect their work but can’t stand to work with them. Hell even family who piss them off but they have to play nice with a few times a year. I don’t think you would subject yourself to being around said people for the remainder of your life’s work. Especially creative, collaborative work.
Good call out, I think I remember that.
and it sounds like we all appreciate the many moves they made in the interest of self preservation.
Dave was great with PJ & he's a talented drummer for sure. Matt is great with and for PJ and he's also a talented drummer.
It's been a long time since he was in the band & something like this pops up every once in awhile. I seriously doubt he will ever play live with them again and it's pretty sad to see that he can't let it go. I wish him all the best, but sometimes things simply just don't work out.
Also what memorable acts has Dave been in since Pearl Jam?
Guns N' Roses.
Riddle me this Batman -- Name another Pearl Jam member who has been in a band as memorable as Guns N' Roses?
Guns N' Roses memorable for sure, but not always for the right reasons. Enlighten me this Spiritual Chaos --- Wasn't late 90's more memorable for GnRs for not making music and being late or no shows for concerts than anything else? Also wasn't Jack Irons more substantial for RHCP (who actually created music throughout their career vs. GnR) in their early years than Dave was after PJ fired him?
touting Dave A being in GNR for a half second is about the same as mentioning Duff as being a former member of Jane's Addiction, which also lasted about the same amount of time.
Getting kicked out of a band is one thing. Getting kicked out of a business that would never have you worry about money ever again is a different story.
I don’t think that tweet is bad. He wants to play a show with his old band. Not unusual.
yeah, I don't get the judgment dave gets constantly from this fan base of "move on". would you move on if basically millions of dollars were kind of snatched away from you in an instant? this isn't pining over an ex girlfriend. as you said, it's also the business side of it. missing out on touring the world, seeing exotic locations, playing in front of thousands of people every night.
Exactly.
Not to mention the popularity and legacy of the band was built upon the sound for which he was provided the rhythm and life force like blood flowing through veins.
Given To Fly type of songs isn’t want shot the band to the moon.
Also what memorable acts has Dave been in since Pearl Jam?
Guns N' Roses.
Riddle me this Batman -- Name another Pearl Jam member who has been in a band as memorable as Guns N' Roses?
Guns N' Roses memorable for sure, but not always for the right reasons. Enlighten me this Spiritual Chaos --- Wasn't late 90's more memorable for GnRs for not making music and being late or no shows for concerts than anything else? Also wasn't Jack Irons more substantial for RHCP (who actually created music throughout their career vs. GnR) in their early years than Dave was after PJ fired him?
Late 90s was more memorable for GoldenEye on the Nintendo 64, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, the last theatrical outing in the franchise: Hellraiser: Bloodline and Axl Rose being so hurt by Dave A leaving he had to destroy an aquarium.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Comments
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
My bad.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Draw up a timeline from 1994 to now, and how much has Dave A even talked about Pearl Jam publicly?
Throwing out a snide comment now and then about someone who pulled a rug from underneath your feet and "wronged" you isn't dwelling, it's normal human behavior. No matter if it is 30 years ago. Thank god for people sniding in this world and not trying to lie themselves into some utopian Dr. Phil-way to live ones life. I would be fucking scared being around someone with that attitude regarding their exes, or a shitty boss or whatever parallel one would draw. Just snide like a normal person.
When you say "Thank god for people sniding in this world and not trying to lie themselves into some utopian Dr. Phil-way to live one's life", why don't you take your own advice about what you know and don't know and how easily you jump to a conclusion. I've spent 15+ years working with child abuse victims, all kinds of abuse. I know 15 yrs worth of examples of some of the most horrible things 1 human can and does do to another, and children no less. And you're going to reduce my comment (which I stand by 1000%) that it's unhealthy to dwell on something you can't change) as "Utopian Dr. Phil ways of living one's life"... Interesting. I'll simply say you're talking to one of the least "utopian" people on this planet. But I'm also a realist, and I'd love to know what you disagree with about me saying it's toxic and unhealthy to dwell on what you can't change. What about that statement is not true?
The fact that you don't think Dave A is "dwelling, or unhealthy" in his public comments over YEARS about this topic is your right and you clearly have very strong feelings about it. Cool.
However what you cannot delete or try to discredit with accusations of "utopian sensibilities" is the clear record of public comments Dave has made over years that show he still has strong feelings about it and still spends time voicing publicly that he wants it to change, as evidenced today by the comment you yourself posted. He wants to change his dynamic and relationship to the band, and he says it clearly, publicly, repeatedly, over the years. No utopia-shaming by you changes what is out there in public record for everyone to read.
So many different views here on who did what, what was justified and what wasn't, what the right thing to do now is. Cool, like I said, anything involving human relationships is sticky sticky sticky. Rarely simple. Everyone has a right to speaking what they think about a topic involving public figures on a message board (within the rules, of course).
But what you call "normal person snide-ness" in his public comments comes across to me as bitterness that, by asking or commenting publicly about it regularly over decades indicates he has indeed NOT moved on.
"Moving on" doesn't mean you accept the past as "justified" or "fine". It doesn't mean you don't have regrets or aren't still mad at your exes, be they romantic exes, band exes or business exes. And "moving on" doesn't mean you have to "get over it" on someone else's timetable. But since he's a public figure, no one should be surprised that 30 yrs later if he's still commenting on social media that he wishes they'd invite him back to play a couple of full album shows, no one should be surprised that to many that does seem like an unhealthy level of NOT moving on.
And just like you have a right to get all hot and bothered and hypocritical about what is ok and what's not in these conversations, I get to say what I said.
I can honestly say from my heart that I wish Dave A the best. I wish him peace and prosperity, and I hope he finds some work or purpose that turns out to be so compelling and fulfilling, he doesn't have time to be on social media raising the hope of a reunion with PJ. Because I truly, in the deepest parts of my heart and experience, believe THAT is what moving on looks like at its best. Given what you said above, you may well find that the most repulsive level of "utopian Dr. Phil views" there are. So be it. I know what living making the most of today and tomorrow despite real world immense challenges looks like to me, and it's what I hope for & strive for for myself and for everyone else.
Including you. But don't worry, just like you can't catch covid online, I don't think my nasty utopian Dr. Phil-seeming-to-you views are contagious. But then again, I wish they were...
But you're absolutely right, he's an example of being kicked out and having a public grouse about it for decades.
There's a whole other convo we could also have, about musicians who did do well, maybe even really well, but are still bitter that some of their contemporaries did SO MUCH MORE BETTER. Or, better-er. Or whatever the right word is LOL!
A bald guy who headlined the 2nd day of SHN comes to mind... So does the singer of the Boomtown Rats... But that's a very different convo, sorry, off track here...
But, there's still tomorrow....
#AquariumGoals
and it sounds like we all appreciate the many moves they made in the interest of self preservation.
2008 Tampa - 2013 Buffalo - 2016 Tampa - 2016 Fenway II
Audioslave 2005 MSG
Matt is great with and for PJ and he's also a talented drummer.
It's been a long time since he was in the band & something like this pops up every once in awhile. I seriously doubt he will ever play live with them again and it's pretty sad to see that he can't let it go. I wish him all the best, but sometimes things simply just don't work out.
www.cluthelee.com
www.cluthe.com
www.headstonesband.com
Not to mention the popularity and legacy of the band was built upon the sound for which he was provided the rhythm and life force like blood flowing through veins.