I have a question for our Canadian friends here. Having been born in California but also having lived in Western New York State for two years and Washington State for 4 years and having spend some time or traveled through 45 of the states, I've noticed that the US has a number of subcultures that can vary a good bit.
Some very general observations: Mid to southern west coast people are generally very culture oriented, easy to meet but don't bond tightly and are often fast-lane people. East coast people are more traditional, stand-offish when first met but once a bond is made it is solid. Midwest people are generally friendly but a bit stubborn and often set in their ways. Northwest people listen to bands like Pearl Jam and are stoned 90% of the time.
So my question, Canadians, is, do you find the same to be true about Canada? Are there varying general characteristics of people throughout your country?
There is no 'uniform' Canadian persona.
It's a combination of many factors, but people on the Atlantic coast are different from people on the Pacific coast who are different from people on the prairies who are different from...
I'd surmise that- among many things- geography is significant towards shaping the regional characteristics of the people there. But having said that, I don't feel Canadians are divided or polarized as significantly as our southern neighbours. Outside of an individual here or there and for better or worse, we tend to believe in and support social programs. We place priorities on health and education. We are comfortable with social assistance.
We have legitimate problems too, but they just seem smaller than some of the significant problems Americans are facing right now.
* The one difference I have seen over and over again is the service industry in the US is much friendlier and warm than in Canada. Businesses and the servers within these businesses in the US seem to genuinely appreciate your patronage. I'm not saying Canada is brutal, but I am saying that US workers tend to be more enthusiastic within their jobs serving you.
I say this with countless experiences throughout Washington State, many in Las Vegas, many in Hawaii, several in Boston, some in Los Angeles, and a few in Arizona. I'm relatively well-travelled within Canada.
There is a pretty large and artistically impressive body of Canadian literature about the significant influence that geography has on the Canadian culture and psychology, and yes, since the country is SO geographically diverse, this is believed to have possibly the most profound impact on our regional differences.
I agree that American customer service is usually much better in general (and in Canada the companies with the best service are the American-based ones, i.e. Amazon.ca, Costco, and various other companies that simply won't let their Canadian workers be anything other than wonderful). Customer service for Canadian companies is more like they feel put out by you wanting them to serve you, and like they are doing you a massive favour by helping you like they're supposed to. Lots of attitude sometimes, and yes, a lot of the time customer service workers act like they HATE their job and it's all they can do to not just tell you to shove your customer needs up your ass. I have no idea why this is. I don't find this to be true in the service industry though, usually. I think servers in hospitality are usually pretty friendly here too.... but maybe not quite as overt about it.... This reminds me of this: I once dated a Frenchman who was here for a couple of years on a work Visa, and already used to Canadian ways, and the first time we took a trip to the US, his first time there, he immediately noticed how almost aggressively friendly all the business owners and workers were, like in every store, etc. He actually said that it made him not trust them because they were TOO friendly, to the point where he couldn't even believe they weren't just 100% putting on a false front. I told him I'm pretty sure it's genuine American customer service enthusiasm, but I don't think he believed me.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Yuck, neither. But with a gun to my head, Labatt? Saskatchewan (Manitoba works too) Niagara Falls No... I think there is one in Quebec City though.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
I have visited the ice hotel and had a drink in their bar (in a ice mug), but haven’t stayed there. It was gorgeous to see but I have no wish to spend the money to sleep there.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I have a question for our Canadian friends here. Having been born in California but also having lived in Western New York State for two years and Washington State for 4 years and having spend some time or traveled through 45 of the states, I've noticed that the US has a number of subcultures that can vary a good bit.
Some very general observations: Mid to southern west coast people are generally very culture oriented, easy to meet but don't bond tightly and are often fast-lane people. East coast people are more traditional, stand-offish when first met but once a bond is made it is solid. Midwest people are generally friendly but a bit stubborn and often set in their ways. Northwest people listen to bands like Pearl Jam and are stoned 90% of the time.
So my question, Canadians, is, do you find the same to be true about Canada? Are there varying general characteristics of people throughout your country?
There is no 'uniform' Canadian persona.
It's a combination of many factors, but people on the Atlantic coast are different from people on the Pacific coast who are different from people on the prairies who are different from...
I'd surmise that- among many things- geography is significant towards shaping the regional characteristics of the people there. But having said that, I don't feel Canadians are divided or polarized as significantly as our southern neighbours. Outside of an individual here or there and for better or worse, we tend to believe in and support social programs. We place priorities on health and education. We are comfortable with social assistance.
We have legitimate problems too, but they just seem smaller than some of the significant problems Americans are facing right now.
* The one difference I have seen over and over again is the service industry in the US is much friendlier and warm than in Canada. Businesses and the servers within these businesses in the US seem to genuinely appreciate your patronage. I'm not saying Canada is brutal, but I am saying that US workers tend to be more enthusiastic within their jobs serving you.
I say this with countless experiences throughout Washington State, many in Las Vegas, many in Hawaii, several in Boston, some in Los Angeles, and a few in Arizona. I'm relatively well-travelled within Canada.
I found the service in the US, for the most part, far better than anywhere else I've travelled. I'm from Australia, and as a general rule, we do not tip, as the service staff are paid a fair wage, and in the nicer restaurants, some waiters etc make very good money. In the last few years, restaurants have tried to implement tips in various methods to guilt you into paying a tip. I have no problem tipping when service if worthy, but I will not tip in Australia on most occasions as the service has not been worthy, rather just going through the motions and the prices a nice restaurants charge for food is shocking
I spent 4 weeks in the US a few years ago for work and happily tipped at every place for food/drinks as I found the service far more friendly and on most occasions the waiters remembered your drink and regularly check on your experience. Loved that part of the US and loved leaving very nice tips for those really starred. Even in those places where service may not have been "great" but if was fine, I was happy to tip as I know that's the expectation due to the wage supplementation.
It's getting to the point where, in the US, you're expected to tip for just about everything. Tip expectations and tip jars are all over the place. I n some cases I don't mind if I thought the underpaid service workers were making enough in wages plus tips to make a living wage but even with tips, service jobs are hard to get by on. But how do you know how much that woman busing tables or the guy loading the commercial dishwasher is getting and is it a fair shake?
In Australia, there is minimum wages applied to all industries, so it is pretty easy to find out a rough guide to pays etc. There are plenty of jobs that are paid similar amounts to the restaurant service industry in Oz, so that's party of the reason that I don't tip and also, I'm not loaded either and a meal out for my family at a standard restaurant would easily come to $100-$150, for nothing fancy, so that is definitely not something I can afford to do very often, and I'm not adding to that cost by tipping for average service, which is the case for the majority of my experiences eating out in Oz. Certainly not bad, but nothing that makes you feel looked after, like the service I have experienced in the US.
I was lucky enough, when I was in the US for work, that I was getting paid a travel allowance for meals etc, so I was happy to part with that money to give good tips to the staff. We were in a small town for the majority of the 4 weeks I was there,so there was not a lot of places to eat. We ate and drank at one place probably 3-4 nights a week and there was at least 20 of us, so the staff were sad when were were leaving, because they'd had a great run of good tips and happy customers.We loved it, because they looked after us so well and remembered what we liked to drink etc, and often had good chats to them about our country and theirs.
That's about $80 to $118, US. Unless you have a large family, this is rather costly!
Yes it is rather costly. Its a family of 5 - youngest being 12. For a comparison, I paid around $22 US for a 250gm Rib Fillet Steak and a Half Rack of ribs when I was last there in 2012. At home the steak alone would be around $30 at the majority of standard steak restaurants. A full rack of baby back pork ribs in Australia will easily set you back $45, with some places being more expensive up to $60, and then they want a tip at the end of the night. You can find the odd cheaper place or somewhere that will have a promotion on. I refuse to pay that much for them here. For a country that produces a lot of beef, it costs a small fortune for good quality steak here - at Butchers for home meals and restaurants
As a general rule, our wages are higher here, but our cost of living a bloody expensive. Not saying its the worst, but its not great. To live in a city, in an outer suburb (say 30-40km's outside of the city centre), your looking at around $400-$500,000 for a standard nice 4 bedroom house. Sydney is much worse. If you want to live within 30km of Sydney, you'd want to have $700,000 + for a basic house
I'll ride the wave where it takes me
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1995
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1998
*BEC, Brisbane, November 2006
*QSAC, Brisbane November 2009
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane March 10 and 12 2011
*Big Day Out, Gold Coast, 19 Jan 2014
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane, 22,23 & 25 Feb 2014
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Yuck, neither. But with a gun to my head, Labatt? Saskatchewan (Manitoba works too) Niagara Falls No... I think there is one in Quebec City though.
what is wrong with saskatchewan and manitoba? just flat and boring?
My ex-girlfriend from Montreal would likely have answered as follows.
Molson Export (no longer brewed)
Newfoundland (they were always making fun of people from Newfoundland, calling them Newfies, similar to the way that people in the northeastern U.S. make fun of people from the southeastern U.S.)
I don’t know (but her grandmother basically lived at Casino de Montréal)
I don’t know (but I’d guess yes; she and her family are loaded, and they would spend money on the stupidest shit)
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Labatt (bud light) atm but always drink coors light Flew into calgary once in the winter which was my only visit west of Ontario so based on the atlantic provinces- New Brunswick Niagara falls (PJSoul agree) no- made a shitload of ice camps back when younger though.
What has bigger fan base NFL, NBA or college sports?
Hamilton 9-13-05; Toronto 5-9-06, Toronto 8-21-09, Toronto 9-12-11, Hamilton 9-15-11....
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Yuck, neither. But with a gun to my head, Labatt? Saskatchewan (Manitoba works too) Niagara Falls No... I think there is one in Quebec City though.
what is wrong with saskatchewan and manitoba? just flat and boring?
Wanna see something hilarious?
Look at Saskatchewan's borders. There's not a squarer defined geographical area on the planet.
I was born there and have lots of family there. Saskatoon is a great city. My vote is Manitoba (sorry Hugh).
Labatts or Molsons? Come on, Scruffy. We have better tastes than that (we drink craft beer as well ya dork). Having said that... Canadians for sure (Molsons).
Vancouver is the best city in our country. I don't live there anymore, but it's awesome (outside of the traffic). Halifax is pretty damn special as well. Ontario people are likely going to start pulling their hair out and demanding I mention Toronto... and Quebec people are going to insist on Montreal or Quebec City... but there not personal favourites of mine (and I say this with limited experience in any of those three).
Cue Dignin and the gang: Calgary and Edmonton are nice. Gawddamn cold though. Coldest weather I ever experienced was Edmonton that went from10 degrees to -38 in the span of three hours (no shit). The water that melted in 10 degree weather became ice and the entire city was an ice cube.
Our team bus broke down (our brake lines froze among a variety of other things). We had to trek to a Holiday Inn at 3am via foot. It was like the march of the penguins. I hated my life in that moment.
Questions for my Canadian friends: Molson or labatt? What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there? What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas? Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Labatt (bud light) atm but always drink coors light Flew into calgary once in the winter which was my only visit west of Ontario so based on the atlantic provinces- New Brunswick Niagara falls (PJSoul agree) no- made a shitload of ice camps back when younger though.
What has bigger fan base NFL, NBA or college sports?
I would think the nfl by far. Although I think college football times like Alabama, Michigan, Norte dame, Clemson, Ohio state, etc. could give someone like the cleveland browns a run for their money.
I dont' think the fastfood compagnies in Canada offer the "super size" option and it's a good thing. Who need a bucket of Coca-Cola? Also,what is this piece of clothing?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,847
Another difference between Americans and Canadians: we say 'tat'... Yankees say 'tit'.
They always want us to say 'tit' for 'tat'.
So, then, is this a tufted tatmouse?
And what, praytell, do you call a blue-footed booby?
lol
We hate that boob bird. And that tater-mouse bird is a wanker.
Our geese put the run on these wussies when they try and enter Canadian air space. And if they try and sneak in on the ground level... our mooses charge them back to the US.
Our PM promised to build a net to keep these damn birds out of our country, but so far... nothing. Fake promises.
well then, come round up all YOUR geese, shitting everywhere , walking around like they own the fucking place.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Another difference between Americans and Canadians: we say 'tat'... Yankees say 'tit'.
They always want us to say 'tit' for 'tat'.
So, then, is this a tufted tatmouse?
And what, praytell, do you call a blue-footed booby?
lol
We hate that boob bird. And that tater-mouse bird is a wanker.
Our geese put the run on these wussies when they try and enter Canadian air space. And if they try and sneak in on the ground level... our mooses charge them back to the US.
Our PM promised to build a net to keep these damn birds out of our country, but so far... nothing. Fake promises.
well then, come round up all YOUR geese, shitting everywhere , walking around like they own the fucking place.
Another difference between Americans and Canadians: we say 'tat'... Yankees say 'tit'.
They always want us to say 'tit' for 'tat'.
So, then, is this a tufted tatmouse?
And what, praytell, do you call a blue-footed booby?
lol
We hate that boob bird. And that tater-mouse bird is a wanker.
Our geese put the run on these wussies when they try and enter Canadian air space. And if they try and sneak in on the ground level... our mooses charge them back to the US.
Our PM promised to build a net to keep these damn birds out of our country, but so far... nothing. Fake promises.
well then, come round up all YOUR geese, shitting everywhere , walking around like they own the fucking place.
My Gawd they leave a mess don't they?
I absolutely despise Canada Geese (and no, they are NOT "Canadian geese"). Yes, they shit everywhere and ruin parks - can't even lay down a blanket for a picnic in the summer without it getting all covered in shit. Plus they are total assholes. They are aggressive - if you feed them they won't appreciate it; they'll attack you for more. And sometimes they just wander into traffic and refuse to budge even when you try to herd them. They just stand there fucking laughing at everyone. I would love for all Canada geese to go back to their owner, which is the fucking Queen of England. She's the reason we're not allowed to cull the fuckers! ... And I'm normally opposed to culling, but for these bastards, I'll make an exception.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
yes canada gave us Uncle Neil, Rush, Triumph, even Alanis and Avril (I guess)
however , the unforgiveable is they also forced Nickelback and Justin Beiber on us. So, really, they should be wiped off the face of the earth......
Shall I list some of the shit music the US has given the world???
I'll ride the wave where it takes me
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1995
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1998
*BEC, Brisbane, November 2006
*QSAC, Brisbane November 2009
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane March 10 and 12 2011
*Big Day Out, Gold Coast, 19 Jan 2014
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane, 22,23 & 25 Feb 2014
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,847
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Comments
I agree that American customer service is usually much better in general (and in Canada the companies with the best service are the American-based ones, i.e. Amazon.ca, Costco, and various other companies that simply won't let their Canadian workers be anything other than wonderful). Customer service for Canadian companies is more like they feel put out by you wanting them to serve you, and like they are doing you a massive favour by helping you like they're supposed to. Lots of attitude sometimes, and yes, a lot of the time customer service workers act like they HATE their job and it's all they can do to not just tell you to shove your customer needs up your ass.
I don't find this to be true in the service industry though, usually. I think servers in hospitality are usually pretty friendly here too.... but maybe not quite as overt about it.... This reminds me of this: I once dated a Frenchman who was here for a couple of years on a work Visa, and already used to Canadian ways, and the first time we took a trip to the US, his first time there, he immediately noticed how almost aggressively friendly all the business owners and workers were, like in every store, etc. He actually said that it made him not trust them because they were TOO friendly, to the point where he couldn't even believe they weren't just 100% putting on a false front. I told him I'm pretty sure it's genuine American customer service enthusiasm, but I don't think he believed me.
Molson or labatt?
What is the province that no Canadian wants to visit unless you have relatives living there?
What Canadian city is most like Las Vegas?
Have you ever stayed in an ice hotel?
Saskatchewan (Manitoba works too)
Niagara Falls
No... I think there is one in Quebec City though.
For a country that produces a lot of beef, it costs a small fortune for good quality steak here - at Butchers for home meals and restaurants
As a general rule, our wages are higher here, but our cost of living a bloody expensive. Not saying its the worst, but its not great. To live in a city, in an outer suburb (say 30-40km's outside of the city centre), your looking at around $400-$500,000 for a standard nice 4 bedroom house. Sydney is much worse. If you want to live within 30km of Sydney, you'd want to have $700,000 + for a basic house
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1995
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1998
*BEC, Brisbane, November 2006
*QSAC, Brisbane November 2009
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane March 10 and 12 2011
*Big Day Out, Gold Coast, 19 Jan 2014
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane, 22,23 & 25 Feb 2014
Molson Export (no longer brewed)
Newfoundland (they were always making fun of people from Newfoundland, calling them Newfies, similar to the way that people in the northeastern U.S. make fun of people from the southeastern U.S.)
I don’t know (but her grandmother basically lived at Casino de Montréal)
I don’t know (but I’d guess yes; she and her family are loaded, and they would spend money on the stupidest shit)
Flew into calgary once in the winter which was my only visit west of Ontario so based on the atlantic provinces- New Brunswick
Niagara falls (PJSoul agree)
no- made a shitload of ice camps back when younger though.
What has bigger fan base NFL, NBA or college sports?
Wanna see something hilarious?
Look at Saskatchewan's borders. There's not a squarer defined geographical area on the planet.
I was born there and have lots of family there. Saskatoon is a great city. My vote is Manitoba (sorry Hugh).
Labatts or Molsons? Come on, Scruffy. We have better tastes than that (we drink craft beer as well ya dork). Having said that... Canadians for sure (Molsons).
Vancouver is the best city in our country. I don't live there anymore, but it's awesome (outside of the traffic). Halifax is pretty damn special as well. Ontario people are likely going to start pulling their hair out and demanding I mention Toronto... and Quebec people are going to insist on Montreal or Quebec City... but there not personal favourites of mine (and I say this with limited experience in any of those three).
Cue Dignin and the gang: Calgary and Edmonton are nice. Gawddamn cold though. Coldest weather I ever experienced was Edmonton that went from10 degrees to -38 in the span of three hours (no shit). The water that melted in 10 degree weather became ice and the entire city was an ice cube.
Our team bus broke down (our brake lines froze among a variety of other things). We had to trek to a Holiday Inn at 3am via foot. It was like the march of the penguins. I hated my life in that moment.
The population to land mass ratio is amazing.
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
You never really had to begin with.
Sometimes it's not the song that makes you emotional it's the people and things that come to your mind when you hear it.
glass bottle bear in Ontario is as popular/preferred as ever, in the us they are really pushing plastic/tin bottles and cans...
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
however , the unforgiveable is they also forced Nickelback and Justin Beiber on us. So, really, they should be wiped off the face of the earth......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1995
*BEC, Brisbane, March 1998
*BEC, Brisbane, November 2006
*QSAC, Brisbane November 2009
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane March 10 and 12 2011
*Big Day Out, Gold Coast, 19 Jan 2014
*EV Solo, QPAC, Brisbane, 22,23 & 25 Feb 2014
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I do this every weekend, Olympics or not. hahaha fuckin hosers eh!
the above may help out as well!