confederate flag: offensive or historical? (part II)

Shawshank

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

PJ_Soul

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

mickeyrat

PJ_Soul said:

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

absolutely NOT. What it is , is a call to join the U.S. in being condemned for its past. AS in we arent the only ones , and yet you choose to ignore that? Calling others out for it to stand in condemnation with us in no way diminishes our culpability in slave trade.

Frankly your comment that is quoted first comes across like its ONLY American slavery that REAAAAALLLLLLY bugs you. Kinda negates the suffering of an awful lot more people.

lolobugg

I think the Vampire Lestat was French...
seriously though,
I believe everyone in the slave trade except the victims have blood on their hands.

mickeyrat

PJ_Soul said:

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

not a so what subject realizing the totality of what occured.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_history_of_american_slavery/2015/06/animated_interactive_of_the_history_of_the_atlantic_slave_trade.html

Interactive by Andrew Kahn. Background image by Tim Jones.

Usually, when we say “American slavery” or the “American slave trade,” we mean the American colonies or, later, the United States. But as we discussed in Episode 2 of Slate’s History of American Slavery Academy, relative to the entire slave trade, North America was a bit player. From the trade’s beginning in the 16th century to its conclusion in the 19th, slave merchants brought the vast majority of enslaved Africans to two places: the Caribbean and Brazil. Of the more than 10 million enslaved Africans to eventually reach the Western Hemisphere, just 388,747—less than 4 percent of the total—came to North America. This was dwarfed by the 1.3 million brought to Spanish Central America, the 4 million brought to British, French, Dutch, and Danish holdings in the Caribbean, and the 4.8 million brought to Brazil.

This interactive, designed and built by Slate’s Andrew Kahn, gives you a sense of the scale of the trans-Atlantic slave trade across time, as well as the flow of transport and eventual destinations. The dots—which represent individual slave ships—also correspond to the size of each voyage. The larger the dot, the more enslaved people on board. And if you pause the map and click on a dot, you’ll learn about the ship’s flag—was it British? Portuguese? French?—its origin point, its destination, and its history in the slave trade. The interactive animates more than 20,000 voyages cataloged in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database. (We excluded voyages for which there is incomplete or vague information in the database.) The graph at the bottom accumulates statistics based on the raw data used in the interactive and, again, only represents a portion of the actual slave trade—about one-half of the number of enslaved Africans who actually were transported away from the continent.

There are a few trends worth noting. As the first European states with a major presence in the New World, Portugal and Spain dominate the opening century of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, sending hundreds of thousands of enslaved people to their holdings in Central and South America and the Caribbean. The Portuguese role doesn’t wane and increases through the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, as Portugal brings millions of enslaved Africans to the Americas.

In the 1700s, however, Spanish transport diminishes and is replaced (and exceeded) by British, French, Dutch, and—by the end of the century—American activity. This hundred years—from approximately 1725 to 1825—is also the high-water mark of the slave trade, as Europeans send more than 7.2 million people to forced labor, disease, and death in the New World. For a time during this period, British transport even exceeds Portugal’s.

In the final decades of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, Portugal reclaims its status as the leading slavers, sending 1.3 million people to the Western Hemisphere, and mostly to Brazil. Spain also returns as a leading nation in the slave trade, sending 400,000 to the West. The rest of the European nations, by contrast, have largely ended their roles in the trade.

By the conclusion of the trans-Atlantic slave trade at the end of the 19th century, Europeans had enslaved and transported more than 12.5 million Africans. At least 2 million, historians estimate, didn’t survive the journey. —Jamelle Bouie

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

absolutely NOT. What it is , is a call to join the U.S. in being condemned for its past. AS in we arent the only ones , and yet you choose to ignore that? Calling others out for it to stand in condemnation with us in no way diminishes our culpability in slave trade.

Frankly your comment that is quoted first comes across like its ONLY American slavery that REAAAAALLLLLLY bugs you. Kinda negates the suffering of an awful lot more people.

Mickey, not to speak for another poster here but I'm quite certain any kind of slavery would bug PJ_Soul A LOT. It's just that this thread is about a domestic issue that involves the history of slavery and racism in the U.S. No doubt the same problems exist elsewhere, no doubt we would do well to speak out against those problems everywhere but maybe it's not a bad idea to start with our own homeland?

brianlux

Regarding a few earlier comments about Native Americans and the racist use of their names and symbols, I came across this today:

http://www.ibtimes.com/native-americans-look-confederate-flag-controversy-ask-what-about-redskins-other-1984094

Native Americans Look At Confederate Flag Controversy And Ask: What About 'Redskins' And Other Racist Symbols?

The Confederate flag’s days seem numbered as retailers and statehouses alike remove (or consider removing) it for public consumption in the wake of the Charleston shooting. But it’s not the only symbol in American culture surrounded by controversy.

Native American activists who have lobbied against the use of derogatory terms such as “redskins” are monitoring the flag controversy in hopes that it will raise a larger national conversation about harmful symbols that are commonly used in popular culture.

“Our country is having a national debate over symbols, and we should take an honest look at those symbols that don’t promote inclusivity but rather promote bigotry,” said Joel Barkin, vice president of the Oneida Indian Nation and spokesperson for Change the Mascot, a national campaign for ending the use of the word “redskins” as the mascot and name of the NFL team in the nation's capital.

Just as defenders of the Confederate flag have argued that it represents pride in Southern culture and history rather than racism, supporters of team names like the "Redskins" have insisted that they actually honor Native Americans. But activists say parallels between the two controversies are worth noting. Even if the intention behind the usage of such symbols isn't to harm, Americans should recognize that minority groups are harmed by them nonetheless -- and eliminate them as a result.

“Proud tradition does not negate the racism of a flag associated with the enslavement of a people, nor does it negate the racism of a moniker that dehumanizes and slurs a people who underwent attempted eradication,” wrote Tara Houska, tribal rights attorney in Washington, in the Indian Country Today Media Network. “Despite empirical studies demonstrating psychological harm, numerous tribal resolutions, lawsuits, and protests spanning decades, the r-word still remains widely accepted.”

ldent42

what dreams

To me, the issue is very simple. Article 3 of the U.S Constitution makes it very clear what *should* have happened to the traitors who turned their guns on the American government -- death or forfeiture. There should never have been any monuments or new state flags bearing the battle insignia to begin with, starting in 1865. Jefferson Davis and all the generals and ranking officers should have been hanged, and landowning soldiers should have had their property seized to pay reparation for their treason. Complete failure in the post-war period to deal with this issue correctly. Instead, we allowed them to go home and create these stories about their glorious fight against tyranny, and now here we are -- a whole section of the nation who still to this day think they are above the law, "suffering" under the choke of our federal government. Trust me, a significant portion of southern white males and some women are all frothing at the mouth to start another civil war. Why else do you think they believe so strongly of their right to stockpile weapons?

And that's how I really feel about that

Last-12-Exit

what dreams said:

To me, the issue is very simple. Article 3 of the U.S Constitution makes it very clear what *should* have happened to the traitors who turned their guns on the American government -- death or forfeiture. There should never have been any monuments or new state flags bearing the battle insignia to begin with, starting in 1865. Jefferson Davis and all the generals and ranking officers should have been hanged, and landowning soldiers should have had their property seized to pay reparation for their treason. Complete failure in the post-war period to deal with this issue correctly. Instead, we allowed them to go home and create these stories about their glorious fight against tyranny, and now here we are -- a whole section of the nation who still to this day think they are above the law and suffering under the choke of a federal government. Trust me, a significant portion of southern white males and some women are all frothing at the mouth to start another war. They need something to do with all the guns they've got stockpiled.

And that's how I really feel about that

Abraham Lincoln could have done all that. But he was smart enough to know that reconstruction would have taken much longer. His goal was to get the United states back to a whole as soon as possible. He wasn't looking for personal gain or notoriety. Just get the country back together and help the south any way possible.

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

absolutely NOT. What it is , is a call to join the U.S. in being condemned for its past. AS in we arent the only ones , and yet you choose to ignore that? Calling others out for it to stand in condemnation with us in no way diminishes our culpability in slave trade.

Frankly your comment that is quoted first comes across like its ONLY American slavery that REAAAAALLLLLLY bugs you. Kinda negates the suffering of an awful lot more people.

No, I'm focusing on American slavery because of the topic of this thread.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Shawshank said:

PJ_Soul said:

No you can't, and everyone underplays that whole thing as well, which also bugs me. But the whole American slave thing REEAAAALLLYYYY gets me. I mean, the kidnapping and transport of them under conditions more horrific that we can know, torture, starvation, humiliation, millions and millions dead, all for the love of money and leisure and assumed superiority, and all under the guidance of Christianity, and this went on for a couple of centuries, and then that was followed by another 150 years of abuse and murder and injustice. It's so disgusting it makes me sick. Yet so many Americans seem to think they naturally own the moral highground compared to other nations and act as though they have this amazing history that they are proud of, particularly people in the South, where these crimes against humanity happened, and they and even certain STATE GOVERNMENTS fight to keep a flag that symbolically shoves all that history right into the faces of the ancestors of those slaves. It's absolutely appalling.

The American slave thing? It wasn't just an "American" thing. Slavery encompassed every society, and nearly every religion since the beginning of time...with some of the more "refined" societies abolishing it only 10 to 20 years before us...and it was never suppressed globally until 1890 and 1926.

So what?? They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag. I'm pretty sure you people trying to pull other parties in here is a way to somehow lessen the responsibility of America when it comes to slavery. Like spreading the blame around takes some responsibilty away from America. I find this tactic fairly appalling as well.

absolutely NOT. What it is , is a call to join the U.S. in being condemned for its past. AS in we arent the only ones , and yet you choose to ignore that? Calling others out for it to stand in condemnation with us in no way diminishes our culpability in slave trade.

Frankly your comment that is quoted first comes across like its ONLY American slavery that REAAAAALLLLLLY bugs you. Kinda negates the suffering of an awful lot more people.

Mickey, not to speak for another poster here but I'm quite certain any kind of slavery would bug PJ_Soul A LOT. It's just that this thread is about a domestic issue that involves the history of slavery and racism in the U.S. No doubt the same problems exist elsewhere, no doubt we would do well to speak out against those problems everywhere but maybe it's not a bad idea to start with our own homeland?

Yes, thank you.

what dreams

Last-12-Exit said:

what dreams said:

To me, the issue is very simple. Article 3 of the U.S Constitution makes it very clear what *should* have happened to the traitors who turned their guns on the American government -- death or forfeiture. There should never have been any monuments or new state flags bearing the battle insignia to begin with, starting in 1865. Jefferson Davis and all the generals and ranking officers should have been hanged, and landowning soldiers should have had their property seized to pay reparation for their treason. Complete failure in the post-war period to deal with this issue correctly. Instead, we allowed them to go home and create these stories about their glorious fight against tyranny, and now here we are -- a whole section of the nation who still to this day think they are above the law and suffering under the choke of a federal government. Trust me, a significant portion of southern white males and some women are all frothing at the mouth to start another war. They need something to do with all the guns they've got stockpiled.

And that's how I really feel about that

Abraham Lincoln could have done all that. But he was smart enough to know that reconstruction would have taken much longer. His goal was to get the United states back to a whole as soon as possible. He wasn't looking for personal gain or notoriety. Just get the country back together and help the south any way possible.

Abraham Lincoln was shot within months of surrender. He didn't have time to make many post-war decisions, and those who followed in his footsteps didn't help the south by allowing them to construct this bullshit mythology they call their heritage. Psychologically, the South _never_ re-integrated with the union. The people defending the flag will proudly tell you that. They are Southerners before they are Americans. They are more loyal to the fallen Confederacy than they are to this nation as a whole. In general, they hate outsiders, they don't travel much outside of the south, and they don't give a damn how the rest of the world has progressed.

mickeyrat

what dreams said:

Last-12-Exit said:

what dreams said:

To me, the issue is very simple. Article 3 of the U.S Constitution makes it very clear what *should* have happened to the traitors who turned their guns on the American government -- death or forfeiture. There should never have been any monuments or new state flags bearing the battle insignia to begin with, starting in 1865. Jefferson Davis and all the generals and ranking officers should have been hanged, and landowning soldiers should have had their property seized to pay reparation for their treason. Complete failure in the post-war period to deal with this issue correctly. Instead, we allowed them to go home and create these stories about their glorious fight against tyranny, and now here we are -- a whole section of the nation who still to this day think they are above the law and suffering under the choke of a federal government. Trust me, a significant portion of southern white males and some women are all frothing at the mouth to start another war. They need something to do with all the guns they've got stockpiled.

And that's how I really feel about that

Abraham Lincoln could have done all that. But he was smart enough to know that reconstruction would have taken much longer. His goal was to get the United states back to a whole as soon as possible. He wasn't looking for personal gain or notoriety. Just get the country back together and help the south any way possible.

Abraham Lincoln was shot within months of surrender. He didn't have time to make many post-war decisions, and those who followed in his footsteps didn't help the south by allowing them to construct this bullshit mythology they call their heritage. Psychologically, the South _never_ re-integrated with the union. The people defending the flag will proudly tell you that. They are Southerners before they are Americans. They are more loyal to the fallen Confederacy than they are to this nation as a whole. In general, they hate outsiders, they don't travel much outside of the south, and they don't give a damn how the rest of the world has progressed.

a defeated occupied nation for 150 yrs.. Look at all the bases of the 4 branches spread throughout the south.

g under p

mickeyrat

Then there is this......train keeps a rollin........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0PA11920150630?irpc=932

markymark550

mickeyrat said:

Then there is this......train keeps a rollin........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0PA11920150630?irpc=932

Saw that this morning. First reaction was "Fuck, we don't need this." They need to stay in North Carolina. As Gov. Haley said, "This is our state, and they are not welcome."

oftenreading

mickeyrat said:

Then there is this......train keeps a rollin........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0PA11920150630?irpc=932

And we're supposed to take seriously a man who calls himself a "great titan"?

If he knew his mythology, he would know that the Titans were overthrown quite some time ago.

jeffbr

markymark550 said:

mickeyrat said:

Then there is this......train keeps a rollin........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0PA11920150630?irpc=932

Saw that this morning. First reaction was "Fuck, we don't need this." They need to stay in North Carolina. As Gov. Haley said, "This is our state, and they are not welcome."

My first reaction when I heard this is that the KKK are probably the most honest supporters of that flag. They recognize it for what it is and make no excuses or apologies, unlike all of the other supporters of that flag.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

markymark550 said:

mickeyrat said:

Then there is this......train keeps a rollin........

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0PA11920150630?irpc=932

Saw that this morning. First reaction was "Fuck, we don't need this." They need to stay in North Carolina. As Gov. Haley said, "This is our state, and they are not welcome."

My first reaction when I heard this is that the KKK are probably the most honest supporters of that flag. They recognize it for what it is and make no excuses or apologies, unlike all of the other supporters of that flag.

That's true, good point.
It really highlights the true symbolism behind the flag, and that's probably what most confederate flag supporters need to see right now.... Although I guess I shouldn't give them so much credit as to think they'd actually realize anything. Frankly, I just consider most of those who support the confederate flag to be dumb. Just low IQ'd, mouth-breathing dummy yokels who are too simple-minded to understand why it's wrong. Those who aren't like that are racist jackasses. IMHO, lol.