confederate flag: offensive or historical? (part II)

rgambs

brianlux said:

Stickman12 said:

So the question is historic or offensive. Personally I would say it was historic and a symbol for "southern pride". Which is all well and good. But the KKK adopted this flag and made it a symbol of their beliefs and ideals. This alone makes it offensive.

There are many who propose that idea, Stickman, and that is often their main argument for keeping that flag.

But I'd even argue the idea of Southern Pride. I'm not even sure what that kind of pride is. I mean, should I have "California Pride"? I think of pride as a good feeling about something one has achieved like, "I'm proud of having leaned how to improvise on the guitar in a mixolydian scale". How can I have California Pride? Did I somehow magically convince my father to move to California after WWII and arrange for him to marry my mother and procreate with her so that I could be born in California for the purpose of gaining California Pride? And do I get a flag for doing that? I don't get how that works.

I agree with this sentiment. The entire idea of southern pride is rooted in rebellion and racism tied together. Why is there no "northern pride" or any other? Because there is no need, there is no ideology that is being rejected by everyone else.
Southern Pride is inextricably linked to some nasty stuff.

callen

brianlux said:

Stickman12 said:

So the question is historic or offensive. Personally I would say it was historic and a symbol for "southern pride". Which is all well and good. But the KKK adopted this flag and made it a symbol of their beliefs and ideals. This alone makes it offensive.

There are many who propose that idea, Stickman, and that is often their main argument for keeping that flag.

But I'd even argue the idea of Southern Pride. I'm not even sure what that kind of pride is. I mean, should I have "California Pride"? I think of pride as a good feeling about something one has achieved like, "I'm proud of having leaned how to improvise on the guitar in a mixolydian scale". How can I have California Pride? Did I somehow magically convince my father to move to California after WWII and arrange for him to marry my mother and procreate with her so that I could be born in California for the purpose of gaining California Pride? And do I get a flag for doing that? I don't get how that works.

Insecurity and need fir humans to be member of a tribe. Prominent trait that drives so much of human societies.

Us versus them.

riotgrl

brianlux said:

Stickman12 said:

So the question is historic or offensive. Personally I would say it was historic and a symbol for "southern pride". Which is all well and good. But the KKK adopted this flag and made it a symbol of their beliefs and ideals. This alone makes it offensive.

There are many who propose that idea, Stickman, and that is often their main argument for keeping that flag.

But I'd even argue the idea of Southern Pride. I'm not even sure what that kind of pride is. I mean, should I have "California Pride"? I think of pride as a good feeling about something one has achieved like, "I'm proud of having leaned how to improvise on the guitar in a mixolydian scale". How can I have California Pride? Did I somehow magically convince my father to move to California after WWII and arrange for him to marry my mother and procreate with her so that I could be born in California for the purpose of gaining California Pride? And do I get a flag for doing that? I don't get how that works.

I understand the southern pride thing because it is cultural in nature. However, I completely disagree that the confederate flag in anyway represents the ideals of southern pride.

>

I love this map because I think it does a great job of showing how culturally different each region of the United States is from other regions. Don't we all have those cultural things that are unique to our region that others don't understand? I think the mistake southerners have made is trying to make that flag in anyway representative of those cultural qualities. However, I think it is fair to say that the flag is usually followed by the phrase "the south will rise again" which says to me that these are people that hope the "old ways" of the south (i.e., slavery) will come back. I think made that argument in the original thread of which this was a part. I think there are many who are racist at heart but think they're not. In the south, inherent racism is rampant and many don't see it/acknowledge it. It is in the little comments and the accepted attitudes that many never question.

Bentleyspop

In European countries where displaying the nazi flag is illegal the racists often use the confederate flag in its place.

lolobugg

As a Southerner..... someone born in the "Deep South".... and someone that now lives in a state that shares a border with South Carolina
I say: Take it Down!!!!
It does not represent my history/heritage.
My ancestors did not own slaves... they were sharecroppers.
I find it offensive and it does not represent our generation that grew up going to non segregated schools.
It is unbelievable that in 2015 we are still talking about this.

Jason P

Georgia Adds Swastika, Middle Finger To State Flag



theonion.com/graphic/georgia-adds-swastika-middle-finger-to-state-flag-8998

brianlux

lolobugg said:

As a Southerner..... someone born in the "Deep South".... and someone that now lives in a state that shares a border with South Carolina
I say: Take it Down!!!!
It does not represent my history/heritage.
My ancestors did not own slaves... they were sharecroppers.
I find it offensive and it does not represent our generation that grew up going to non segregated schools.
It is unbelievable that in 2015 we are still talking about this.

Thank you, lolobugg! There are many good people like you from the deep south. To write off all people from a home state like yours is wrong. The video at the end of page two of this thread was funny and made some good points but the guy is wrong to assert that all people in the south are the worst people. I hope more good southerners like you lolo will stand up against racism and be for taking down that flag. Thanks for your words here.

lolobugg

brianlux said:

lolobugg said:

As a Southerner..... someone born in the "Deep South".... and someone that now lives in a state that shares a border with South Carolina
I say: Take it Down!!!!
It does not represent my history/heritage.
My ancestors did not own slaves... they were sharecroppers.
I find it offensive and it does not represent our generation that grew up going to non segregated schools.
It is unbelievable that in 2015 we are still talking about this.

Thank you, lolobugg! There are many good people like you from the deep south. To write off all people from a home state like yours is wrong. The video at the end of page two of this thread was funny and made some good points but the guy is wrong to assert that all people in the south are the worst people. I hope more good southerners like you lolo will stand up against racism and be for taking down that flag. Thanks for your words here.

Thank you for your kind words, Brian.
There are a lot of us down here.... unfortunately you usually hear about the ignorant "hicks."
They typically get all of the airtime when something like this happens.
It was refreshing to see the way African Americans and the white populace came together to overcome this despicable act.
I am not religious but I was touched by the compassion that was shown by the congregation of the Emanuel AME church in the face of this unbelievable act.

Trust me, the South is changing. Unfortunately, it will take a few generations from my grandparents/parents generation before we get to where we need to be.

PJ_Soul

Jason P said:

Georgia Adds Swastika, Middle Finger To State Flag



theonion.com/graphic/georgia-adds-swastika-middle-finger-to-state-flag-8998

Stickman12

brianlux said:

Stickman12 said:

So the question is historic or offensive. Personally I would say it was historic and a symbol for "southern pride". Which is all well and good. But the KKK adopted this flag and made it a symbol of their beliefs and ideals. This alone makes it offensive.

There are many who propose that idea, Stickman, and that is often their main argument for keeping that flag.

But I'd even argue the idea of Southern Pride. I'm not even sure what that kind of pride is. I mean, should I have "California Pride"? I think of pride as a good feeling about something one has achieved like, "I'm proud of having leaned how to improvise on the guitar in a mixolydian scale". How can I have California Pride? Did I somehow magically convince my father to move to California after WWII and arrange for him to marry my mother and procreate with her so that I could be born in California for the purpose of gaining California Pride? And do I get a flag for doing that? I don't get how that works.

Hey brother. Just saying having pride for where you are from or where you live. I really didn't dive into this too deep. If you take pride in your community and the GOOD history that has been produced, then you often look to continue to enrich that. But the fact that an organization has used that flag to promote their views of hatred and oppression, that constitutes offensive to me. Hope I clarified a little better for you

markymark550

I'm a native South Carolinian and have lived in SC my whole life. That said, my answer is more complex than just take the flag down. I would guess that it's because I'm a white Southerner and have never experienced the oppression and racism perpetrated behind the flag that others have experienced that explains why I can see and tolerate both sides of the debate. Let me state that first of all, I support removing the flag from the statehouse grounds and would never personally fly the flag myself.

I truly do believe that there are people who fly the Confederate flag with no racial pretense. While this is incredulous to some, I do believe this. The reasons for flying the flag without a racist meaning are for Southern pride and honoring ancestors. By Southern pride I mean the ability to stand in defiance of your enemy. This defiance predates the Civil War and goes back to the Southern resistance in the Southern Campaign of the British in the American Revolution. Events like the Battle of Kings Mountain and the Battle of Cowpens are seen as turning points in the war and a great source of pride. As for honoring your ancestors, you can honor them without necessarily agreeing with their reasons for being a part of the Confederacy. I don't agree with their reasons for seceding, but I do admire their standing strong in their beliefs and fighting for what they thought was right. I could only hope to have that same strength and fortitude to put my life on the line for something I vehemently believed.

Those reasons, on their own, are valid and why I can understand that side of the debate. However, there are problems with those reasons. Firstly, the Confederate flag wasn't around for the American Revolution. Other flags or symbols would be more relevant for that argument. For South Carolinians, perhaps the Moultrie flag? Possibly the Gadsden flag for any Southerner? Secondly, pro-flag supporters either don't acknowledge or don't think that the flag taking on a racist meaning detracts from their arguments. That the flag was used as a protest to the civil rights movement and was appropriated by white supremacist groups like the KKK is extremely problematic. The prominent uses for the flag in the last half century has been oppression, violence, and racism. You just simply discount that fact. That you may not have racist reasons for flying the flag doesn't change the implied racism seen by nearly everyone and severely detracts from the ability to discern why the flag is being flown. That the flag is automatically seen as a racist symbol pretty much negates the valid reasons one has for using the flag.

All of that said, I am completely against flying the flag above the capitol building, on government land (with some exceptions like reenactments), or for personally flying it myself. I cannot support, in good conscience, something that has become a symbol of racism, hatred, violence, and oppression.

My main question regarding the debate now is with the focus on South Carolina, will focus shift to other states if SC does decide to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? I just worry that it's going to be a case of "yeah, we got that ignorant state to change" and not worry about the other states with more egregious uses (Mississippi) or subtle symbols of the Confederacy (Georgia). Maybe that's just seen through a South Carolina lens and all the attention I see is about my state, and just have not seen the same coverage for other states. Granted, I do pay more attention to local and state issues, so that may very well be the case.

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Hope I've explained myself well and maybe shed some new perspective on the issue.

PJfanwillneverleave1

markymark550 said:

My main question regarding the debate now is with the focus on South Carolina, will focus shift to other states if SC does decide to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? I just worry that it's going to be a case of "yeah, we got that ignorant state to change" and not worry about the other states with more egregious uses (Mississippi) or subtle symbols of the Confederacy (Georgia)

Is this the State flag you are talking about?

markymark550

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

markymark550 said:

My main question regarding the debate now is with the focus on South Carolina, will focus shift to other states if SC does decide to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? I just worry that it's going to be a case of "yeah, we got that ignorant state to change" and not worry about the other states with more egregious uses (Mississippi) or subtle symbols of the Confederacy (Georgia)

Is this the State flag you are talking about?

Yes, the state flag of Mississippi, that incorporates the Confederate battle flag. Also, the state flag of Georgia, which is based upon the first national flag of the Confederacy. Plus, from what I understand, Alabama has a Confederate memorial on statehouse grounds where the battle flag is flown, much like here in SC. Also, it's debatable, but it's theorized that the state flags of Alabama and Florida are based on the Confederate battle flag.

Last-12-Exit

I have found that most pro flag people can't or won't accept that the flag has evolved into a symbol of hate whether they believe that or not. Plus people find the flag offensive. It's mind boggling to these pro flag people that somebody could be offended by such a symbol. Removing the flag from the state house grounds simply verifies that the flag does not represent every south carolinian. It is not banning the flag from being flown on private property. Some of these people are having a very difficult time with this.

rr165892

As a southerner,I understand hardships and obstacles early settlers had to endure here in the South.I think that kind of moxy is what some talk about,when discussing being proud of where we live.
That said,the south is a melting pot.The French In LA,Spanish and Europeans in Fl ,British in SC,GA,Scottish and Irish in Appalachia and of course African immigrants.Very diverse,Very steeped in tradition.We have always been a Mash up of heritages that truly makes our area of the States unique.Shit, a southern Accent is derived from aristocratic Proper Kings English to begin with.
The states with flag issues need to do what we did in FL.We still have red stripes crossing but it's been softened and made non offensive.
It's well over do time for the Confederate Battle flag to go.

riotgrl

markymark550 said:

My main question regarding the debate now is with the focus on South Carolina, will focus shift to other states if SC does decide to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? I just worry that it's going to be a case of "yeah, we got that ignorant state to change" and not worry about the other states with more egregious uses (Mississippi) or subtle symbols of the Confederacy (Georgia). Maybe that's just seen through a South Carolina lens and all the attention I see is about my state, and just have not seen the same coverage for other states. Granted, I do pay more attention to local and state issues, so that may very well be the case.

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Hope I've explained myself well and maybe shed some new perspective on the issue.

The debate is definitely shifting to other states. Here in Kentucky there is a statue of Jefferson Davis in the capitol building in Frankfort. They've been trying to get that statue removed for 10-15 years and are now feeling the pressure to remove it. While Davis may not be the inflammatory symbol that the flag is, it is most definitely inappropriate for it to remain anywhere other than a museum.

courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/06/23/kentucky-hears-calls-removal-jefferson-davis-statue-capitol/29168623/

eeriepadave

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/23/every-state-flag-is-wrong-and-here-is-why/

markymark550

riotgrl said:

markymark550 said:

My main question regarding the debate now is with the focus on South Carolina, will focus shift to other states if SC does decide to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds? I just worry that it's going to be a case of "yeah, we got that ignorant state to change" and not worry about the other states with more egregious uses (Mississippi) or subtle symbols of the Confederacy (Georgia). Maybe that's just seen through a South Carolina lens and all the attention I see is about my state, and just have not seen the same coverage for other states. Granted, I do pay more attention to local and state issues, so that may very well be the case.

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Hope I've explained myself well and maybe shed some new perspective on the issue.

The debate is definitely shifting to other states. Here in Kentucky there is a statue of Jefferson Davis in the capitol building in Frankfort. They've been trying to get that statue removed for 10-15 years and are now feeling the pressure to remove it. While Davis may not be the inflammatory symbol that the flag is, it is most definitely inappropriate for it to remain anywhere other than a museum.

courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2015/06/23/kentucky-hears-calls-removal-jefferson-davis-statue-capitol/29168623/

Good to know other states are considering taking actions too. I did read in my local paper that legislators in Mississippi want to start a dialog about changing their state flag.

Last-12-Exit

eeriepadave said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/23/every-state-flag-is-wrong-and-here-is-why/

Let's be clear on this: the confederate flag is not the Stat flag of South Carolina. I hope the nation knows that.

lolobugg

I was born and lived in Alabama until I was 22 years old...
Good to see them making the right decision.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/24/417162233/alabama-governor-orders-removal-of-confederate-flags-from-capitol