Guns.

Go Beavers

Lerxst1992 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

brianlux said:

I don't understand what it is Ed said that upset people? 

people in new york apparently got butthurt again. i don't know exactly what was said but saw a few people on facebook complaining that apparently ed told people they need to vote and that women's rights were on the ballot and alluded to gun violence.

i guess at least it wasn't bushleaguer.

Bushleaguer...Thats from Nassau 2003, about 20 miles from the garden, when he put on the bush mask and got soundly roasted. That crowd loved the Iraq invasion 

Yesterday he was pissed about another school shooting and went on a bit about women's rights. 

He then complained about republicans, which was a mistake.. should never use the R or D word from the stage

Lol. Have you heard one of their songs called Even Flow played live? 

brianlux

gimmesometruth27 said:

brianlux said:

I don't understand what it is Ed said that upset people? 

people in new york apparently got butthurt again. i don't know exactly what was said but saw a few people on facebook complaining that apparently ed told people they need to vote and that women's rights were on the ballot and alluded to gun violence.

i guess at least it wasn't bushleaguer.

Doesn't sound like anything to get twisted up about to me.  It all sounds good and reasonable.

dbanthony

BF25394 said:

 In most instances where people complain about artists expressing political opinions, their real problem is that they express opinions they don't agree with. They don't complain when artists express political opinions they agree with. The fans who burned Dixie Chicks records for their expression of shame that they were from the same state as Bush and told them to shut up and sing were, in many cases, the same fans who raised their fists and said "Right on!" when other country artists accused liberals of being un-American.

Quoting the portion of this I find most relevant here. I've been thinking about since people have been posting about what Eddie said last night but yhe same people who yell "Shut up and play" think that they are entitled to say what they want, wear clothing that boldly expresses their opinions, and anyone who doesn't want to hear it is "soft" but can't take it when an artist they paid money to see talks about something they believe in. I know it's pointless to call put the hypocrisy here, but after seeing a guy at Wrigley in a MAGA hat worn backwards to presumably "trigger" the people behind him (he was in the first row, for the record) it has been on my mind. It's cool if he wants to wear that and express his opinion, but you can't get mad when it comes back around on you. 

mickeyrat

lastexitlondon

Absolute lunatics. Both need getting rid of

Attaway77

Humans will continue to destroy each other no matter the weapon of choice, the human race has been around for quite some time. Weapons or hands, when a human decides they want to kill, they will. It's fucking scary, yet, it is facts and reality. We can discuss the right or wrong, the left and right, we can blame blame blame. It will never change, humans decide to do this horrible shit to another before they choose a weapon or their hands.

brianlux

dbanthony said:

BF25394 said:

 In most instances where people complain about artists expressing political opinions, their real problem is that they express opinions they don't agree with. They don't complain when artists express political opinions they agree with. The fans who burned Dixie Chicks records for their expression of shame that they were from the same state as Bush and told them to shut up and sing were, in many cases, the same fans who raised their fists and said "Right on!" when other country artists accused liberals of being un-American.

Quoting the portion of this I find most relevant here. I've been thinking about since people have been posting about what Eddie said last night but yhe same people who yell "Shut up and play" think that they are entitled to say what they want, wear clothing that boldly expresses their opinions, and anyone who doesn't want to hear it is "soft" but can't take it when an artist they paid money to see talks about something they believe in. I know it's pointless to call put the hypocrisy here, but after seeing a guy at Wrigley in a MAGA hat worn backwards to presumably "trigger" the people behind him (he was in the first row, for the record) it has been on my mind. It's cool if he wants to wear that and express his opinion, but you can't get mad when it comes back around on you. 

Well said, both.  

I would add that yelling at people or arguing with them never leads them to changing their mind and agreeing  with you.  And I'd rather know where someone is coming from instead of having them be shut down. 

Attaway77

Books about history, there are many. Unfortunately/fortunately we are far advanced from where those pages once started. Reading is fun, I highly recommend it.

Attaway77

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

Attaway77

Even that is fucking horrific knowing people have died in stupid wars and battles for what?? Well, without those we wouldn't be here today as us, silly shit to think about but it's a harsh horrible truth. That's what humans do, we destroy each other. Sorry for the rants, this is why I stay the fuck out of AMT..  And yes, killing whales is shit., there are many others.  Humans suck, yet, we are here because of the bad shit we have done and will continue to do, this is how humans exist and will no longer ceazse to exist once this earth has finally been destroyed by us. Fingers crossed for those living in space when that time comes...

Merkin Baller

https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-regularly-happens/

mickeyrat

mickeyrat

because of course its not. if they're waiting for a small window between shootings to get something done, it will never happen...

mace1229

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Go Beavers

Attaway77 said:

Humans will continue to destroy each other no matter the weapon of choice, the human race has been around for quite some time. Weapons or hands, when a human decides they want to kill, they will. It's fucking scary, yet, it is facts and reality. We can discuss the right or wrong, the left and right, we can blame blame blame. It will never change, humans decide to do this horrible shit to another before they choose a weapon or their hands.

Not really. The lethality and ease of killing someone with a gun, as opposed to say fists, makes the spontaneous decisions with gun to more likely result in death. 

Gern Blansten

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

Well yeah...blame the human that has access to an assault rifle that can mow down other humans.

The weapon should be difficult to obtain. Not easy to obtain. That's the fucking problem.

Gern Blansten

Go Beavers said:

Attaway77 said:

Humans will continue to destroy each other no matter the weapon of choice, the human race has been around for quite some time. Weapons or hands, when a human decides they want to kill, they will. It's fucking scary, yet, it is facts and reality. We can discuss the right or wrong, the left and right, we can blame blame blame. It will never change, humans decide to do this horrible shit to another before they choose a weapon or their hands.

Not really. The lethality and ease of killing someone with a gun, as opposed to say fists, makes the spontaneous decisions with gun to more likely result in death. 

Yeah the argument from the right, whenever some death is reported by stabbing or bludgeoning, is always "now they will outlaw knives and/or baseball bats", etc.

Ridiculous logic.

Halifax2TheMax

Gern Blansten said:

Go Beavers said:

Attaway77 said:

Humans will continue to destroy each other no matter the weapon of choice, the human race has been around for quite some time. Weapons or hands, when a human decides they want to kill, they will. It's fucking scary, yet, it is facts and reality. We can discuss the right or wrong, the left and right, we can blame blame blame. It will never change, humans decide to do this horrible shit to another before they choose a weapon or their hands.

Not really. The lethality and ease of killing someone with a gun, as opposed to say fists, makes the spontaneous decisions with gun to more likely result in death. 

Yeah the argument from the right, whenever some death is reported by stabbing or bludgeoning, is always "now they will outlaw knives and/or baseball bats", etc.

Ridiculous logic.

Yes, let me know when 20 first and second graders and six adult staff members are murdered in their school by someone wielding their fists/feet, a knife or a bat. Or when 60 adults are killed and 413 are injured at an outdoor concert. Then we can talk and I’ll give the human excuser a listen. News flash: humans suck.

dbanthony

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

I don't think the equivalency between guns used for wars and guns used by citizens. From fhe historical end, funs used during the Revolutionary War share no resemblance with the ones today. Even in modern wars, military personnel don't just get to do whatever they want with them at any time. That's not how it works. 

This is like saying "Doctors used to cure people with opium so what's the issue with the opiod crisis today?" Just because something has historical precedent doesn't mean it's the same today as it was then or that rules, laws, and orecedents don't change as time goes on. 

Gern Blansten

dbanthony said:

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

I don't think the equivalency between guns used for wars and guns used by citizens. From fhe historical end, funs used during the Revolutionary War share no resemblance with the ones today. Even in modern wars, military personnel don't just get to do whatever they want with them at any time. That's not how it works. 

This is like saying "Doctors used to cure people with opium so what's the issue with the opiod crisis today?" Just because something has historical precedent doesn't mean it's the same today as it was then or that rules, laws, and orecedents don't change as time goes on. 

Yeah and the entire argument about guns being necessary to fend off "tyranny" is so mind blowingly stupid I can hardly stand it.

There is clearly an advantage that the gov't has with weaponry that makes anything the public can use to fight tyranny completely useless. The US soldiers could take out an entire army of Meal Team Six with a tactical nuke without even leaving their base.

BF25394

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that what I described is universal or that it applies to every fan or every conservative fan. I'm just saying that this dynamic exists within the rock fanbase and it creates some tension. The artists (who are also mostly white and male) are more liberal than the average white male American (to coin a phrase), and the audience, mostly white and male, is more conservative than the artists.

I suspect that some of the earlier songs that I didn't mention, including some of the ones you did mention, are more political than you (or I) realize. "Yellow Ledbetter" is a commentary on the Gulf War and the tension between paeans to service and the way veterans are actually treated when they come home, especially if they don't conform to societal norms. "Better Man" covers themes of domestic emotional abuse, if not violence. "Dissident" is forthrightly about a political dissident. Eddie has been covering political and social themes from the beginning. The songs that don't have political themes are the exceptions.

josevolution

So 400 million guns in America are not the problem! Yeah ok I’m done with this topic

mace1229

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that what I described is universal or that it applies to every fan or every conservative fan. I'm just saying that this dynamic exists within the rock fanbase and it creates some tension. The artists (who are also mostly white and male) are more liberal than the average white male American (to coin a phrase), and the audience, mostly white and male, is more conservative than the artists.

I suspect that some of the earlier songs that I didn't mention, including some of the ones you did mention, are more political than you (or I) realize. "Yellow Ledbetter" is a commentary on the Gulf War and the tension between paeans to service and the way veterans are actually treated when they come home, especially if they don't conform to societal norms. "Better Man" covers themes of domestic emotional abuse, if not violence. "Dissident" is forthrightly about a political dissident. Eddie has been covering political and social themes from the beginning. The songs that don't have political themes are the exceptions.

I agree that there's probably more politics in the lyrics than we realize. I thought I said something along those lines, but I guess not. Most people probably had no idea Even Flow was about a homeless guy when it was out.
But even those political lyrics you pointed out aren't one-sided.
No one wants domestic violence. Everyone hates seeing veterans treated poorly, etc. Most of it is not one-sided, conservative vs liberal. Anyway, you're probably right in your first comment that "Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation." 
I'm just saying it didn't matter, most of their songs are not overly political anyway. If you stayed off social media and only listened to the first 5 albums, you may not know PJ is a liberal band with the exception of just a couple songs. 

dbanthony

mace1229 said:

I'm just saying it didn't matter, most of their songs are not overly political anyway. If you stayed off social media and only listened to the first 5 albums, you may not know PJ is a liberal band with the exception of just a couple songs. 

I think that piece is only true given how deep you read into things though. If you just listen to the music and let the lyrics wash over you, sure, I agree. But there is enough in that lyrical content on those records to point in a direction of belief throughout that range of time. Pearl Jam was never explicitly a political band in the way of their punk influences, but when you take into account the fact you could go to a show and Eddie would write "Pro Choice" on his arms or them going to court to take on Ticketmaster, they were pointing a direction. People may not have cared to notice it, but it was surely there.

DE4173

Gern Blansten said:

dbanthony said:

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

I don't think the equivalency between guns used for wars and guns used by citizens. From fhe historical end, funs used during the Revolutionary War share no resemblance with the ones today. Even in modern wars, military personnel don't just get to do whatever they want with them at any time. That's not how it works. 

This is like saying "Doctors used to cure people with opium so what's the issue with the opiod crisis today?" Just because something has historical precedent doesn't mean it's the same today as it was then or that rules, laws, and orecedents don't change as time goes on. 

Yeah and the entire argument about guns being necessary to fend off "tyranny" is so mind blowingly stupid I can hardly stand it.

There is clearly an advantage that the gov't has with weaponry that makes anything the public can use to fight tyranny completely useless. The US soldiers could take out an entire army of Meal Team Six with a tactical nuke without even leaving their base.

I'm not sure if I saw this here or elsewhere:

https://youtu.be/WOSqCjMRXWA?si=ZCd15VtoDoJJzFkr

brianlux

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

Everybody knows it's people using guns to kill people that kills people, not guns killing people that kills people.  EVERYBODY knows that, so lets dispense with the nonsense that a gun will lift itself out of a holster or get up off the table and of its own will to shot and kill someone.  NO ONE believes that.

I also believe most us us know that in this country, making it illegal to own a gun is unlikely to happen and even if it did, there are already around 400,000 firearms in the hands of American citizens- an average of 1.2 guns per every single person at any age in America.  There is no way all of those guns are going to be confiscated.

So what many of us are reasonably asking is that assault weapons be banned (that's easy- no one needs and assault rifle, period), background checks be made mandatory and thorough, the minimum age required to purchase a gun be raised, and a reasonable waiting period for guns to be purchase be instated.   All of that is very reasonable and makes good sense.  There is no viable argument against any of that.

brianlux

DE4173 said:

Gern Blansten said:

dbanthony said:

Attaway77 said:

I’m tired of people blaming guns killing people.. I don’t even like guns, but I don’t use that as an excuse like people today. I’m willing to bet if somebody broke into your home you wouldn’t mind putting a bullet inside somebody to protect your family or self.. People think guns were just invented.. how do you think you are here today complaining about them? They won wars for centuries/decades for you to exist today. Don't blame the weapon, blame the human...

I don't think the equivalency between guns used for wars and guns used by citizens. From fhe historical end, funs used during the Revolutionary War share no resemblance with the ones today. Even in modern wars, military personnel don't just get to do whatever they want with them at any time. That's not how it works. 

This is like saying "Doctors used to cure people with opium so what's the issue with the opiod crisis today?" Just because something has historical precedent doesn't mean it's the same today as it was then or that rules, laws, and orecedents don't change as time goes on. 

Yeah and the entire argument about guns being necessary to fend off "tyranny" is so mind blowingly stupid I can hardly stand it.

There is clearly an advantage that the gov't has with weaponry that makes anything the public can use to fight tyranny completely useless. The US soldiers could take out an entire army of Meal Team Six with a tactical nuke without even leaving their base.

I'm not sure if I saw this here or elsewhere:

https://youtu.be/WOSqCjMRXWA?si=ZCd15VtoDoJJzFkr

Exactly!  And are these people just kidding us or are they kidding themselves?  What the hell century are they living in?

Anyway, that was a hilarious clip, thanks for posting it!

BF25394

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that what I described is universal or that it applies to every fan or every conservative fan. I'm just saying that this dynamic exists within the rock fanbase and it creates some tension. The artists (who are also mostly white and male) are more liberal than the average white male American (to coin a phrase), and the audience, mostly white and male, is more conservative than the artists.

I suspect that some of the earlier songs that I didn't mention, including some of the ones you did mention, are more political than you (or I) realize. "Yellow Ledbetter" is a commentary on the Gulf War and the tension between paeans to service and the way veterans are actually treated when they come home, especially if they don't conform to societal norms. "Better Man" covers themes of domestic emotional abuse, if not violence. "Dissident" is forthrightly about a political dissident. Eddie has been covering political and social themes from the beginning. The songs that don't have political themes are the exceptions.

I agree that there's probably more politics in the lyrics than we realize. I thought I said something along those lines, but I guess not. Most people probably had no idea Even Flow was about a homeless guy when it was out.
But even those political lyrics you pointed out aren't one-sided.
No one wants domestic violence. Everyone hates seeing veterans treated poorly, etc. Most of it is not one-sided, conservative vs liberal. Anyway, you're probably right in your first comment that "Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation." 
I'm just saying it didn't matter, most of their songs are not overly political anyway. If you stayed off social media and only listened to the first 5 albums, you may not know PJ is a liberal band with the exception of just a couple songs. 

I think the songs are not overtly political, but it's not so clear as to whether they're overly political. I suspect that Ed intended these songs to have a message and that he would have a different view about the one-sidedness of these lyrics. I am an independent and always have been, but I can see that the parties' attitudes about homelessness and what to do about it are quite different. I can also see that there is a segment of the conservative base that subscribes to religious beliefs that hold that women should subjugate themselves to their husbands. That doesn't necessarily mean that there will be domestic violence, or that all of those people would accept domestic violence, or that only conservatives engage in acts of domestic violence, but there's a direct line from a belief that the man is the head of the household not to be questioned to domestic violence (recognizing that women can also commit domestic violence-- like every time my wife asks me take out the trash, amirite, fellas? -- and that it also occurs in same-sex households, but it's mostly committed by men against women). No one wants veterans to be treated poorly but, again, the parties don't take the same positions on having the government spend money to improve veterans' lives. Remember when Jon Stewart (someone who I find very annoying on television) had to go to Congress to beg them to fund healthcare for 9/11 first responders? The holdouts he was there to convince were not Democrats.

Halifax2TheMax

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that what I described is universal or that it applies to every fan or every conservative fan. I'm just saying that this dynamic exists within the rock fanbase and it creates some tension. The artists (who are also mostly white and male) are more liberal than the average white male American (to coin a phrase), and the audience, mostly white and male, is more conservative than the artists.

I suspect that some of the earlier songs that I didn't mention, including some of the ones you did mention, are more political than you (or I) realize. "Yellow Ledbetter" is a commentary on the Gulf War and the tension between paeans to service and the way veterans are actually treated when they come home, especially if they don't conform to societal norms. "Better Man" covers themes of domestic emotional abuse, if not violence. "Dissident" is forthrightly about a political dissident. Eddie has been covering political and social themes from the beginning. The songs that don't have political themes are the exceptions.

I agree that there's probably more politics in the lyrics than we realize. I thought I said something along those lines, but I guess not. Most people probably had no idea Even Flow was about a homeless guy when it was out.
But even those political lyrics you pointed out aren't one-sided.
No one wants domestic violence. Everyone hates seeing veterans treated poorly, etc. Most of it is not one-sided, conservative vs liberal. Anyway, you're probably right in your first comment that "Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation." 
I'm just saying it didn't matter, most of their songs are not overly political anyway. If you stayed off social media and only listened to the first 5 albums, you may not know PJ is a liberal band with the exception of just a couple songs. 

I think the songs are not overtly political, but it's not so clear as to whether they're overly political. I suspect that Ed intended these songs to have a message and that he would have a different view about the one-sidedness of these lyrics. I am an independent and always have been, but I can see that the parties' attitudes about homelessness and what to do about it are quite different. I can also see that there is a segment of the conservative base that subscribes to religious beliefs that hold that women should subjugate themselves to their husbands. That doesn't necessarily mean that there will be domestic violence, or that all of those people would accept domestic violence, or that only conservatives engage in acts of domestic violence, but there's a direct line from a belief that the man is the head of the household not to be questioned to domestic violence (recognizing that women can also commit domestic violence-- like every time my wife asks me take out the trash, amirite, fellas? -- and that it also occurs in same-sex households, but it's mostly committed by men against women). No one wants veterans to be treated poorly but, again, the parties don't take the same positions on having the government spend money to improve veterans' lives. Remember when Jon Stewart (someone who I find very annoying on television) had to go to Congress to beg them to fund healthcare for 9/11 first responders? The holdouts he was there to convince were not Democrats.

Not to mention which party is opposed to red flag laws.

BF25394

Halifax2TheMax said:

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

mace1229 said:

BF25394 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

josevolution said:

Like Ed said last night paraphrasing here 
This is the 1st week of school! 

Pathetic that lots of folks got upset with him calling this issue out! I’m embarrassed to have been there in the building with them! 

Ed should not forget, although the garden is in a solid blue state, some of the suburbs are solid trumplandia

Hey, it got us glorified g and gimme some truth (my interpretation)

There is a tension between the fact that the rock audience skews white and male, and the fact that white men skew conservative, especially as they age. So you end up with liberal rock artists playing for audiences that are disproportionately conservative (disproportionate to the population of New York City and New Jersey, in this case), and some of the people in that audience chafe at the disconnect. The classic example is Chris Christie being a diehard Springsteen fan. Christie loves Bruce but hates Bruce's politics. I think there are a lot of middle-aged white male Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation in the music and who didn't flinch at Pearl Jam's transparently political songs like "W.M.A." and "Glorified G," to name two, but now they're caught in between their established love for the band, whose politics haven't changed, and their own embrace of conservative politics as they've gotten older.

I've leaned conservative my whole life. I don't care about the band's politics at all. With only a few exceptions like the ones you mentioned, most of their songs are free from politics, especially in their early years.
With songs like Release, RVM, Corduroy, Betterman, Dissident, Alive, Yellow Led, Breathe, Immortality, etc, I'm not going to stop listening to them because I don't like the message in WMA, a song I've never really cared for anyway. 
Even still, I've always loved Glorfied G, even though I own guns. Its a good and fun song.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not saying that what I described is universal or that it applies to every fan or every conservative fan. I'm just saying that this dynamic exists within the rock fanbase and it creates some tension. The artists (who are also mostly white and male) are more liberal than the average white male American (to coin a phrase), and the audience, mostly white and male, is more conservative than the artists.

I suspect that some of the earlier songs that I didn't mention, including some of the ones you did mention, are more political than you (or I) realize. "Yellow Ledbetter" is a commentary on the Gulf War and the tension between paeans to service and the way veterans are actually treated when they come home, especially if they don't conform to societal norms. "Better Man" covers themes of domestic emotional abuse, if not violence. "Dissident" is forthrightly about a political dissident. Eddie has been covering political and social themes from the beginning. The songs that don't have political themes are the exceptions.

I agree that there's probably more politics in the lyrics than we realize. I thought I said something along those lines, but I guess not. Most people probably had no idea Even Flow was about a homeless guy when it was out.
But even those political lyrics you pointed out aren't one-sided.
No one wants domestic violence. Everyone hates seeing veterans treated poorly, etc. Most of it is not one-sided, conservative vs liberal. Anyway, you're probably right in your first comment that "Pearl Jam fans who became fans when they were 17 or 18 and didn't pay much attention to politics or political issues, who just connected with the feelings of angst and alienation." 
I'm just saying it didn't matter, most of their songs are not overly political anyway. If you stayed off social media and only listened to the first 5 albums, you may not know PJ is a liberal band with the exception of just a couple songs. 

I think the songs are not overtly political, but it's not so clear as to whether they're overly political. I suspect that Ed intended these songs to have a message and that he would have a different view about the one-sidedness of these lyrics. I am an independent and always have been, but I can see that the parties' attitudes about homelessness and what to do about it are quite different. I can also see that there is a segment of the conservative base that subscribes to religious beliefs that hold that women should subjugate themselves to their husbands. That doesn't necessarily mean that there will be domestic violence, or that all of those people would accept domestic violence, or that only conservatives engage in acts of domestic violence, but there's a direct line from a belief that the man is the head of the household not to be questioned to domestic violence (recognizing that women can also commit domestic violence-- like every time my wife asks me take out the trash, amirite, fellas? -- and that it also occurs in same-sex households, but it's mostly committed by men against women). No one wants veterans to be treated poorly but, again, the parties don't take the same positions on having the government spend money to improve veterans' lives. Remember when Jon Stewart (someone who I find very annoying on television) had to go to Congress to beg them to fund healthcare for 9/11 first responders? The holdouts he was there to convince were not Democrats.

Not to mention which party is opposed to red flag laws.

Very good point. And common-sense gun laws in general.