So you believe (rightly so) that a murderer does not have the right to decide someone should die. What then makes you think that you have this right?
And for the record, I have heard of cases murder victims' families who have said that, contrary to what they expected, the execution of the killer did not give them peace, or a sense of justice, or closure. Or allowed them to sleep any better at night.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
odd...
when something evil is no longer breathing
to me this is relief
I can understand that you feel relief, we're just different, and that is fine of course.
But let me ask you this, please answer:
What kind of feeling do you get when you think of Ray Krone, who was exonerated from death row?
or Cameron Todd Willingham who might be innocent?
never heard of those two guys
if they are innocent that is both good and bad
system suck.
now they can get on with their lives.
What about Derek Bentley?
Can he get on with his life? Dead. Innocent. And certainly not the only one.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
it wasn't ever a killing of self defense for that nut case so yes his death was good thing.
Godfather.
Again, you are expressing nothing here other than your opinion. There is no logical connection from whether or not it was self-defence to whether there are specific postitive social outcomes to his murder. You are still not answering the question, or logically justifying your position.
when you or chadwick base your support for the death penalty your (justifiable) revulsion at what these people have done, you are calling not for justice, but for vengeance, for retribution. No society that bases itself on retribution over justice can call itself a civilised society, in my book.
And with regard to justifying the death penalty because jailed murderers have killed again, I think there are far more reasonable and intelligent responses to flaws in the system that enable murderers to kill again, than just killing them. At the end of the day, you've still got a broken system, and you still have dead people. You haven't achieved anything.
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
So you believe (rightly so) that a murderer does not have the right to decide someone should die. What then makes you think that you have this right?
And for the record, I have heard of cases murder victims' families who have said that, contrary to what they expected, the execution of the killer did not give them peace, or a sense of justice, or closure. Or allowed them to sleep any better at night.
it would not give me closure either
it just stops evil from breathing; that i like a lot.
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
Godfather.
The operative word being "may". It is impossible to ever know, so you can never provide any evidence to illustrate that you were correct.
They also may not have killed again.They also may have taken responsibility for their actions, they also may have had the opportunity to make some reparation for what they did. But you'll never know, because they're dead.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
Godfather.
The operative word being "may". It is impossible to ever know, so you can never provide any evidence to illustrate that you were correct.
They also may not have killed again.They also may have taken responsibility for their actions, they also may have had the opportunity to make some reparation for what they did. But you'll never know, because they're dead.
contact the the family's of the victims and ask them and how many chances do you gave a person to kill once they have been caught the first time and still show homicidal tendencies ?
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
Godfather.
The operative word being "may". It is impossible to ever know, so you can never provide any evidence to illustrate that you were correct.
They also may not have killed again.They also may have taken responsibility for their actions, they also may have had the opportunity to make some reparation for what they did. But you'll never know, because they're dead.
contact the the family's of the victims and ask them and how many chances do you gave a person to kill once they have been caught the first time and still show homicidal tendencies ?
Godfather.
If I was one of these families of these victims, my anger wouldnt be over the fact that the criminal in question wasnt murdered by the govt, but rather that the system to keep them incarcerated is flawed.
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
Godfather.
The operative word being "may". It is impossible to ever know, so you can never provide any evidence to illustrate that you were correct.
They also may not have killed again.They also may have taken responsibility for their actions, they also may have had the opportunity to make some reparation for what they did. But you'll never know, because they're dead.
contact the the family's of the victims and ask them and how many chances do you gave a person to kill once they have been caught the first time and still show homicidal tendencies ?
Godfather.
Once again, sidestepping the issue. No one is talking about giving anyone another chance to kill. In fact what I've been saying is, if you don't want that to happen, the rational, responsible and effective response is to fix those gaps in the system that leave that danger open. That does not in any way necessitate killing people.
While emotional reponses to this issue are legitimate and understandable, they should never be made the basis of policy. That way you end up with a dysfunctional system. And if there's one thing the US's criminal justice system is, particularly around the issue of capital punishment, it's dysfunctional.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Well it took a unbelievable 17 hours but the jury in the Cheshire home invasion trial did the right thing and sentenced Stephen Hayes to death. May he burn in hell for what he did.
wolfamongwolves as I said to Truth I respect your opinion on this issue and I even understand where you are coming from on this (I think) but as you have said my stance on this issue is an opinion as is yours so there is no absolute right or wrong, you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Well it took a unbelievable 17 hours but the jury in the Cheshire home invasion trial did the right thing and sentenced Stephen Hayes to death. May he burn in hell for what he did.
What he did was awful. But killing him is not the right thing. If killing by one person is bad, killing by another is also.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Godfather.
the difference is, GF, we address your stance(s). You ignore ours. Why is that?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Connecticut has only put one person to death since 1960 so it think this is a win for both opponents and proponents of the death penalty. He has been sentenced to death but will probably die of boredom and natural causes before receiving his punishment.
wolfamongwolves as I said to Truth I respect your opinion on this issue and I even understand where you are coming from on this (I think) but as you have said my stance on this issue is an opinion as is yours so there is no absolute right or wrong, you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Godfather.
GF, I respect what you're saying here, and of course you are entitled to your opinion. It does concern me, however, that often what supports that opinion is not objective evidence but more subjective opinion, which doesn't make your case any stronger. For example, it is not a valid assumption that the minds of all people convicted for murder are irreperable, and when you kill them you have stymied any possibility.
That said, you're right in saying you know where I'm coming from on this, and I know where you are coming from. And maybe we'll never get anywhere.
I would support a vote if I believed there was a possibility of objectively , factually informing the electorate on the issue. Unfortunately, I've seen what passes for "informing" the electorate in the US over the course of the mid-terms, and it's essentially partisan infantile fearmongering and slanderous propaganda, so I wouldn't have much confidence in that.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Godfather.
the difference is, GF, we address your stance(s). You ignore ours. Why is that?
you are looking for something that is not there I have addressed your opinion and as I have said it's not my opinion, it's your opinion that killing for any reason is wrong and my opinion is different than yours, I haven't avoided anything,on this issue you have no leg to stand on and neither do I sense we both base our vales on this issue on opinions, in this country alone I think a murder is committed every hour or so or less I think..not sure on the numbers but compare that to the amount of executions in this country.
Paul just for the fun of it please explain why it's wrong (yes there is. killing another human being. )
and I am not looking for the "nobody has that right" answer..who gave us that right ? and who gave the right to a killer to kill ? so there has to more to it than that.
you are looking for something that is not there I have addressed your opinion and as I have said it's not my opinion, it's your opinion that killing for any reason is wrong and my opinion is different than yours, I haven't avoided anything,on this issue you have no leg to stand on and neither do I sense we both base our vales on this issue on opinions, in this country alone I think a murder is committed every hour or so or less I think..not sure on the numbers but compare that to the amount of executions in this country.
Godfather.
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
first clarify the question. you ask "who gave us that right?". What right? To kill? NO ONE. I'm guessing you didn't word it the way you wanted it to sound.
Paul just for the fun of it please explain why it's wrong (yes there is. killing another human being. )
and I am not looking for the "nobody has that right" answer..who gave us that right ? and who gave the right to a killer to kill ? so there has to more to it than that.
Godfather.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
you are looking for something that is not there I have addressed your opinion and as I have said it's not my opinion, it's your opinion that killing for any reason is wrong and my opinion is different than yours, I haven't avoided anything,on this issue you have no leg to stand on and neither do I sense we both base our vales on this issue on opinions
I know you're talking to Paul David here, but let me just restate what i said in my last post, because I think it's key here, if you're suggesting this is only a matter of differing opinions.
you are entitled to your opinion. It does concern me, however, that often what supports that opinion is not objective evidence but more subjective opinion, which doesn't make your case any stronger.
There are objective facts about this issue and they're important to discuss, but once we get stuck on just subjective opinions or feelings, we cease to have a meaningful discussion. And this is a discussion that needs to happen.
in this country alone I think a murder is committed every hour or so or less I think..not sure on the numbers but compare that to the amount of executions in this country.
Godfather.
An interesting side note here (though I know we haven't really been discussing the supposed deterrent effects of the death penalty here) is that, rather than deterring violent crime, there is a tendency for murder rates to increase in the immediate aftermath of an execution.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
you are looking for something that is not there I have addressed your opinion and as I have said it's not my opinion, it's your opinion that killing for any reason is wrong and my opinion is different than yours, I haven't avoided anything,on this issue you have no leg to stand on and neither do I sense we both base our vales on this issue on opinions, in this country alone I think a murder is committed every hour or so or less I think..not sure on the numbers but compare that to the amount of executions in this country.
Godfather.
there is no justification for killing a innocent person and I never said there was but that does not mean a guilty person should skate,as Truth stated earlier the system needs repair but in my opinion that does not mean abolishing the death penalty it means fixing the court system.
the statements "no justification for killing an innocent person" and "does not mean abolishing the death penalty" are completely contradictory. In my opinion, it is impossible to hold both opinions.
there is no justification for killing a innocent person and I never said there was but that does not mean a guilty person should skate,as Truth stated earlier the system needs repair but in my opinion that does not mean abolishing the death penalty it means fixing the court system.
Godfather.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
the statements "no justification for killing an innocent person" and "does not mean abolishing the death penalty" are completely contradictory. In my opinion, it is impossible to hold both opinions.
there is no justification for killing a innocent person and I never said there was but that does not mean a guilty person should skate,as Truth stated earlier the system needs repair but in my opinion that does not mean abolishing the death penalty it means fixing the court system.
the statements "no justification for killing an innocent person" and "does not mean abolishing the death penalty" are completely contradictory. In my opinion, it is impossible to hold both opinions.
there is no justification for killing a innocent person and I never said there was but that does not mean a guilty person should skate,as Truth stated earlier the system needs repair but in my opinion that does not mean abolishing the death penalty it means fixing the court system.
wolfamongwolves as I said to Truth I respect your opinion on this issue and I even understand where you are coming from on this (I think) but as you have said my stance on this issue is an opinion as is yours so there is no absolute right or wrong, you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Godfather.
so are you advocating euthanasia? as if to ease the suffering of the convicted and prevent them from living with their "unrepairable minds". sounds pretty condescending to me, as if you think you would be doing them a favor or something....because euthanasia is illegal, then so should be the death penalty.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
wolfamongwolves as I said to Truth I respect your opinion on this issue and I even understand where you are coming from on this (I think) but as you have said my stance on this issue is an opinion as is yours so there is no absolute right or wrong, you bring up the execution of a innocent person to stop the death penalty and I bring up the unrepairable minds of people convicted and the friends and family of victims left behind for my opinion and stance on the issue and both of our examples and opinions have merit so the end issue comes down to a vote on the death penalty by each state.
Godfather.
so are you advocating euthanasia? as if to ease the suffering of the convicted and prevent them from living with their "unrepairable minds". sounds pretty condescending to me, as if you think you would be doing them a favor or something....because euthanasia is illegal, then so should be the death penalty.
euthanasia? ....as long as they're dead who cares .
condescending...ohhhh really ?
your trying to add you own twist to my post, are you ready to throw up the white flag ?
Comments
So you believe (rightly so) that a murderer does not have the right to decide someone should die. What then makes you think that you have this right?
And for the record, I have heard of cases murder victims' families who have said that, contrary to what they expected, the execution of the killer did not give them peace, or a sense of justice, or closure. Or allowed them to sleep any better at night.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Can he get on with his life? Dead. Innocent. And certainly not the only one.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
if you kill these people(killers) you may save the lives of many more like some of the examples on the list I posted it's not a matter of revenge it all about protecting other people from these wackos.
Godfather.
richard ramirez
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
it just stops evil from breathing; that i like a lot.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
They also may not have killed again.They also may have taken responsibility for their actions, they also may have had the opportunity to make some reparation for what they did. But you'll never know, because they're dead.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Godfather.
If I was one of these families of these victims, my anger wouldnt be over the fact that the criminal in question wasnt murdered by the govt, but rather that the system to keep them incarcerated is flawed.
While emotional reponses to this issue are legitimate and understandable, they should never be made the basis of policy. That way you end up with a dysfunctional system. And if there's one thing the US's criminal justice system is, particularly around the issue of capital punishment, it's dysfunctional.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Godfather.
What he did was awful. But killing him is not the right thing. If killing by one person is bad, killing by another is also.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/08/ju ... ion-trial/
Considering they have only carried out the death penalty once since 1960, I doubt he'll see it.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
yes there is. killing another human being.
the difference is, GF, we address your stance(s). You ignore ours. Why is that?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
That said, you're right in saying you know where I'm coming from on this, and I know where you are coming from. And maybe we'll never get anywhere.
I would support a vote if I believed there was a possibility of objectively , factually informing the electorate on the issue. Unfortunately, I've seen what passes for "informing" the electorate in the US over the course of the mid-terms, and it's essentially partisan infantile fearmongering and slanderous propaganda, so I wouldn't have much confidence in that.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
you are looking for something that is not there I have addressed your opinion and as I have said it's not my opinion, it's your opinion that killing for any reason is wrong and my opinion is different than yours, I haven't avoided anything,on this issue you have no leg to stand on and neither do I sense we both base our vales on this issue on opinions, in this country alone I think a murder is committed every hour or so or less I think..not sure on the numbers but compare that to the amount of executions in this country.
Godfather.
and I am not looking for the "nobody has that right" answer..who gave us that right ? and who gave the right to a killer to kill ? so there has to more to it than that.
Godfather.
-can you justify the killing of an innocent human being for the right to kill the guilty, and if so, how?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I don't see how it can ever be justified to kill another human. It's barbaric. We should be evolved beyond such inhumane acts by now.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
An interesting side note here (though I know we haven't really been discussing the supposed deterrent effects of the death penalty here) is that, rather than deterring violent crime, there is a tendency for murder rates to increase in the immediate aftermath of an execution.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
there is no justification for killing a innocent person and I never said there was but that does not mean a guilty person should skate,as Truth stated earlier the system needs repair but in my opinion that does not mean abolishing the death penalty it means fixing the court system.
Godfather.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
and there it is! If there is no justification for the death of innocents by the govt, then the system is a failure.
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maryland
Mississippi
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Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Washington
Wyoming
ALSO
- U.S. Gov't
- U.S. Military
this is interseting.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions
Godfather.
okidoki JP. :shock:
Godfather.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
that is a great site. wow, I didnt know that 35 US states had the DP.
within that site:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocen ... th-penalty
and
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execute ... y-innocent
euthanasia? ....as long as they're dead who cares .
condescending...ohhhh really ?
your trying to add you own twist to my post, are you ready to throw up the white flag ?
Godfather.