Generally speaking, I would say that education has cured more of the world's ills than violence ever has.
it can also be argued that lack of education can lead to increased violence. the less sophisticated a society is the more violent it is.
Good point.
i believe the u.s. is one of the highest educated countries in the world
and also one of the most violent
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
i believe the u.s. is one of the highest educated countries in the world
and also one of the most violent
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
"No government is innocent enough or wise enough or just enough to lay down to so absolute a power as death."
" ... the moral contradiction inherent in a policy which imitates the violence it claims to abhor and in fact premeditates it."
"To assert, in any case, that a man must be absolutely cut off from society because he is absolutely evil amounts to saying that society is absolutely good, and no one in his right mind will believe this today."
"For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life."
http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resour ... der/21.php
'Could not justice concede to the criminal the same weakness in which society finds a sort of permanent extenuating circumstance for itself? Can the jury decently say: “If I kill you by mistake, you will forgive me when you consider the weaknesses of our common nature. But I am condemning you to death without considering those weaknesses or that nature"? There is a solidarity of ill men in error and aberration. Must that solidarity operate for the tribunal and be denied the accused? No, and if justice has any meaning in this world, it means nothing but the recognition of that solidarity; it cannot, by its very essence, divorce itself from compassion. Compassion, of course, can in this instance be but awareness of a common suffering and not a frivolous indulgence paying no attention to the sufferings and rights of the victim. Compassion does not exclude punishment, but it suspends the final condemnation. Compassion loathes the definitive, irreparable measure that does an injustice to mankind as a whole because of failing to take into account the wretchedness of the common condition.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection ... Guillotine
'Camus's main point in his argument against capital punishment is its ineffectiveness. Camus points out that in countries where the death penalty has already been abandoned crime has not risen. He explains this by arguing that the world has changed so that capital punishment no longer serves as the deterrent that it may once have been. In Camus's father's day the guillotine was still used to execute criminals in public but by the time Camus wrote his essay executions took place privately in prisons. Although Camus approved of conducting the executions in private he argued that it removed the element of deterrence and rendered the death penalty as merely a means for the state to dispose of those whom it saw as irremediable.
Camus also argued that the threat of death is insufficient to prevent people from committing crimes as death is the common fate shared by all, regardless of guilt. He also believed that because most murders are not premeditated no deterrent can be effective and in the case of premeditated murder the deterrent would be insufficient to stop those who have already decided to act.
Without serving a purpose Camus argued that capital punishment is reduced to an act of revenge that only breeds further violence, fueled only by sadism and perpetuated by tradition. He likened this act of state revenge to the concept of an eye for an eye and stated that justice should be based on law and principles and not instinct and emotions.
Although Camus opposed the use of capital punishment today, he gives examples in the essay of how it may have been logical and appropriate in pious civilizations. In such civilizations Camus states that the death penalty was usually administered by the Church in order to deprive the convicted of the divine gift of life. However, by doing so, the convicted would then face judgement and have the chance of atonement at the hands of God. In an unbelieving world, Camus argues, the convicted is given no chance of atonement. The process takes place completely separate from the convict and simply dismisses him as beyond salvation or remedy.
Camus also stated that in an unbelieving world there is no absolute authority capable of delivering judgement as no man possesses absolute innocence himself. Because of this Camus suggested that the maximum penalty should be set at life labor due to the possibility of judicial error, a life of labor in Camus's opinion being harsher than death but at least carrying the possibility of being reversed. The convicted would then also always have the option of choosing death via suicide.
Camus also argued that capital punishment was inappropriate because by effecting revenge for grievances it simultaneously hurts the family and loved ones of the convict in the same manner as those being avenged were hurt by the initial crime.'
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
thank you very much.
this means a lot coming from you.
i am now no better than the sickest of the sick.
interesting.
i guess i am damaged like a child predator, torturing rapist, or serial killer.
it is awesome to finally be among these beasts, yet i have done nothing like they have.
shit, all i have done lately is smoke a little weed.
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
Murder the murderer?
Someone may shoot their kid, and for what reason? Could that individual be considered sane? Probably not. Whatever way you look at it, to then carry out a pre-meditated, clinical snuffing out of this individuals life makes you worse in my opinion. At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse. What's your excuse? (And I don't mean 'you' personally).
Those who support the death penalty place themselves on some sort of higher pedestal in the name of justice. But it's a pretty warped and perverse sense of justice. The kind of murder involved in a state execution is just as - if not more - depraved than any other type of murder outside of those prison walls, simply for the fact that it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'. It reeks of the lowest kind of hypocrisy.
Any murder is a tragedy, but it's also a tragedy for the murderer in my opinion. That murderer was a child once. Whenever such a thing occurs I think society needs to take a good look at itself, as opposed to simply wetting it's lips over the prospect of watching another individual fry.
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
thank you very much.
this means a lot coming from you.
i am now no better than the sickest of the sick.
interesting.
i guess i am damaged like a child predator, torturing rapist, or serial killer.
it is awesome to finally be among these beasts, yet i have done nothing like they have.
shit, all i have done lately is smoke a little weed.
I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but if you want to spend 50 pages of a thread cheering state-sanctioned, clinical murder then don't expect a pat on the back from me.
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
So it sounds like you're saying your position is based on emotion then, no?
"No government is innocent enough or wise enough or just enough to lay down to so absolute a power as death."
" ... the moral contradiction inherent in a policy which imitates the violence it claims to abhor and in fact premeditates it."
"To assert, in any case, that a man must be absolutely cut off from society because he is absolutely evil amounts to saying that society is absolutely good, and no one in his right mind will believe this today."
"For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life."
http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resour ... der/21.php
'Could not justice concede to the criminal the same weakness in which society finds a sort of permanent extenuating circumstance for itself? Can the jury decently say: “If I kill you by mistake, you will forgive me when you consider the weaknesses of our common nature. But I am condemning you to death without considering those weaknesses or that nature"? There is a solidarity of ill men in error and aberration. Must that solidarity operate for the tribunal and be denied the accused? No, and if justice has any meaning in this world, it means nothing but the recognition of that solidarity; it cannot, by its very essence, divorce itself from compassion. Compassion, of course, can in this instance be but awareness of a common suffering and not a frivolous indulgence paying no attention to the sufferings and rights of the victim. Compassion does not exclude punishment, but it suspends the final condemnation. Compassion loathes the definitive, irreparable measure that does an injustice to mankind as a whole because of failing to take into account the wretchedness of the common condition.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection ... Guillotine
'Camus's main point in his argument against capital punishment is its ineffectiveness. Camus points out that in countries where the death penalty has already been abandoned crime has not risen. He explains this by arguing that the world has changed so that capital punishment no longer serves as the deterrent that it may once have been. In Camus's father's day the guillotine was still used to execute criminals in public but by the time Camus wrote his essay executions took place privately in prisons. Although Camus approved of conducting the executions in private he argued that it removed the element of deterrence and rendered the death penalty as merely a means for the state to dispose of those whom it saw as irremediable.
Camus also argued that the threat of death is insufficient to prevent people from committing crimes as death is the common fate shared by all, regardless of guilt. He also believed that because most murders are not premeditated no deterrent can be effective and in the case of premeditated murder the deterrent would be insufficient to stop those who have already decided to act.
Without serving a purpose Camus argued that capital punishment is reduced to an act of revenge that only breeds further violence, fueled only by sadism and perpetuated by tradition. He likened this act of state revenge to the concept of an eye for an eye and stated that justice should be based on law and principles and not instinct and emotions.
Although Camus opposed the use of capital punishment today, he gives examples in the essay of how it may have been logical and appropriate in pious civilizations. In such civilizations Camus states that the death penalty was usually administered by the Church in order to deprive the convicted of the divine gift of life. However, by doing so, the convicted would then face judgement and have the chance of atonement at the hands of God. In an unbelieving world, Camus argues, the convicted is given no chance of atonement. The process takes place completely separate from the convict and simply dismisses him as beyond salvation or remedy.
Camus also stated that in an unbelieving world there is no absolute authority capable of delivering judgement as no man possesses absolute innocence himself. Because of this Camus suggested that the maximum penalty should be set at life labor due to the possibility of judicial error, a life of labor in Camus's opinion being harsher than death but at least carrying the possibility of being reversed. The convicted would then also always have the option of choosing death via suicide.
Camus also argued that capital punishment was inappropriate because by effecting revenge for grievances it simultaneously hurts the family and loved ones of the convict in the same manner as those being avenged were hurt by the initial crime.'
I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but if you want to spend 50 pages of a thread cheering state-sanctioned, clinical murder then don't expect a pat on the back from me.
it doesn't have to be state sanctioned either.
i enjoy vigilantly justice the most.
that is truly a lost art form.
sorry, meant to say developed country, along with Singapore, Taiwan, and Japan.
did you know that the US is the only country in the WORLD that executes child offenders? as in those under 18? and it's actually against international law, which the US says it's above?
I've always had the convenience to judge the death penalty from a distance. But a few weeks ago a good friend of mine was murdered by a friend of his, someone I know and have hung out with as well. His story of self defense does not match the ballistic evidence which shows my friend was sitting in a chair and was shot from the back and to the side at close range in the head. This was in a death penalty state, he has tons of priors of violent crimes his whole life. Has done time in a state pen. I could see him getting the death penalty and honestly I could give two shits if they put this POS down right now. I hope he's getting treated real nicely in prison.
I've always had the convenience to judge the death penalty from a distance. But a few weeks ago a good friend of mine was murdered by a friend of his, someone I know and have hung out with as well. His story of self defense does not match the ballistic evidence which shows my friend was sitting in a chair and was shot from the back and to the side at close range in the head. This was in a death penalty state, he has tons of priors of violent crimes his whole life. Has done time in a state pen. I could see him getting the death penalty and honestly I could give two shits if they put this POS down right now. I hope he's getting treated real nicely in prison.
I am so SO sorry that you are having to go through this! There's not much worse in the world than losing a good friend, especially to senseless violence. Feel free to PM me if you ever need to talk.
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
Murder the murderer?
Someone may shoot their kid, and for what reason? Could that individual be considered sane? Probably not. Whatever way you look at it, to then carry out a pre-meditated, clinical snuffing out of this individuals life makes you worse in my opinion. At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse. What's your excuse? (And I don't mean 'you' personally).
Those who support the death penalty place themselves on some sort of higher pedestal in the name of justice. But it's a pretty warped and perverse sense of justice. The kind of murder involved in a state execution is just as - if not more - depraved than any other type of murder outside of those prison walls, simply for the fact that it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'. It reeks of the lowest kind of hypocrisy.
Any murder is a tragedy, but it's also a tragedy for the murderer in my opinion. That murderer was a child once. Whenever such a thing occurs I think society needs to take a good look at itself, as opposed to simply wetting it's lips over the prospect of watching another individual fry.
so you can excuse a child-murderer if someone tells you he is insane?
and what if the murderer is a normal sane person?
do you excuse him?
"it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'"??
i don't see it that way
i believe it's carried out in the name of something "horrible, "indecent, and "unjust"
the murder itself
and a tradgedy for the murderer???
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
you do know hitler was a child once too
atta was a child once
should we forgive him for 9-11?
i think it's hypocritical to worry about everything that is wrong with the human race
and support and give excuses to murderers who have clearly decided that they no longer want to be a part of it
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
this may shock and/or surprise you, and even to some on my end of the capital punishment debate, but I personally found even Saddam Hussein's execution sickening. How it was carried out, and that it was carried out at all.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
this may shock and/or surprise you, and even to some on my end of the capital punishment debate, but I personally found even Saddam Hussein's execution sickening. How it was carried out, and that it was carried out at all.
i feel the same. i have never watched the execution. there were some interesting posts on a moving train while all that was going down.
i found it disgusting that people were so willing to focus on Saddam Hussein's guilt and how much fun it was going to be to kill him. it was sickening how much delight was shown when he was actually executed. i guess those people who were rejoycing, forgot who supported Saddam for decades. of course there wasn't any mention of that.
so you can excuse a child-murderer if someone tells you he is insane?
and what if the murderer is a normal sane person?
do you excuse him?
"it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'"??
i don't see it that way
i believe it's carried out in the name of something "horrible, "indecent, and "unjust"
the murder itself
and a tradgedy for the murderer???
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
you do know hitler was a child once too
atta was a child once
should we forgive him for 9-11?
i think it's hypocritical to worry about everything that is wrong with the human race
and support and give excuses to murderers who have clearly decided that they no longer want to be a part of it
Firstly, I made no mention of excusing anybody. As for Hitler being a child once, so was Reagan, and George W. Bush. They are all responsible for mass killings from the comfort of their armchairs. Do I think the crimes of such individuals warrant murder becoming a legitimate form of justice? Nope. We should never allow ourselves to be dragged down to their level. If murder is wrong, then it should be wrong for everyone, including us.
Someone attending an execution in the U.S, sitting there smugly, and sanctimoniously clutching a Bible whilst someone's life is snuffed out in front of them is no less depraved to me than Dahmer calmly dispatching his victims.
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
this may shock and/or surprise you, and even to some on my end of the capital punishment debate, but I personally found even Saddam Hussein's execution sickening. How it was carried out, and that it was carried out at all.
completely agreed. i think i posted about that some 30 pages ago or something...
i watched the footage. they could have done it in a more civilized manner. they brought him in and everyone there was mocking him and they all chanted "muqtada muqtada mudtada". he was very dignified and did not fight back or resist at all. they put a hood on him, affixed the noose, and let him drop. it was pretty chilling and i will never forget what i saw.
i was really surprised and sickend by how people were celebrating and claiming retribution for 9/11 when it had long been established that iraq had nothing to do with it. i guess the sheep will believe what they want to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary....but that is a topic for another thread i guess....
in the end it was georgie boy getting revenge for his old man. ironically, georgie could have met the same fate at the hague for crimes against humanity himself, and that is another thread as well...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I watched it. I don't know why. I guess part of me didn't believe it. And I was disgusted by what I saw. It would have served a much higher purpose had they let the UN try him in front of a tribunal or something.
completely agreed. i think i posted about that some 30 pages ago or something...
i watched the footage. they could have done it in a more civilized manner. they brought him in and everyone there was mocking him and they all chanted "muqtada muqtada mudtada". he was very dignified and did not fight back or resist at all. they put a hood on him, affixed the noose, and let him drop. it was pretty chilling and i will never forget what i saw.
i was really surprised and sickend by how people were celebrating and claiming retribution for 9/11 when it had long been established that iraq had nothing to do with it. i guess the sheep will believe what they want to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary....but that is a topic for another thread i guess....
in the end it was georgie boy getting revenge for his old man. ironically, georgie could have met the same fate at the hague for crimes against humanity himself, and that is another thread as well...
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Someone attending an execution in the U.S, sitting there smugly, and sanctimoniously clutching a Bible whilst someone's life is snuffed out in front of them is no less depraved to me than Dahmer calmly dispatching his victims.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
As far as I'm concerned if you support the death penalty then you are no better than the sickest of all sick fucks.
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
Murder the murderer?
Someone may shoot their kid, and for what reason? Could that individual be considered sane? Probably not. Whatever way you look at it, to then carry out a pre-meditated, clinical snuffing out of this individuals life makes you worse in my opinion. At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse. What's your excuse? (And I don't mean 'you' personally).
Those who support the death penalty place themselves on some sort of higher pedestal in the name of justice. But it's a pretty warped and perverse sense of justice. The kind of murder involved in a state execution is just as - if not more - depraved than any other type of murder outside of those prison walls, simply for the fact that it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'. It reeks of the lowest kind of hypocrisy.
Any murder is a tragedy, but it's also a tragedy for the murderer in my opinion. That murderer was a child once. Whenever such a thing occurs I think society needs to take a good look at itself, as opposed to simply wetting it's lips over the prospect of watching another individual fry.
"At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse"
you said you did not make excuses for anyone
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
Comments
i believe the u.s. is one of the highest educated countries in the world
and also one of the most violent
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I guess I meant more at an individual level.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
we are gracefully falling further behind all the time.
the death penalty has zero to do with advanced learning.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
so then, why, Chadwick, is the US the only industrialized nation left that does it?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
the u.s. does it because we are plagued with nasty fuckers that harm innocence.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
If you support the clinical snuffing out of a life in the name of 'justice' then you are the worst kind of hypocrite and represent everything that's wrong with the human race.
Albert Camus:
http://isak.typepad.com/isak/2008/03/al ... us-re.html
"No government is innocent enough or wise enough or just enough to lay down to so absolute a power as death."
" ... the moral contradiction inherent in a policy which imitates the violence it claims to abhor and in fact premeditates it."
"To assert, in any case, that a man must be absolutely cut off from society because he is absolutely evil amounts to saying that society is absolutely good, and no one in his right mind will believe this today."
"For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life."
http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resour ... der/21.php
'Could not justice concede to the criminal the same weakness in which society finds a sort of permanent extenuating circumstance for itself? Can the jury decently say: “If I kill you by mistake, you will forgive me when you consider the weaknesses of our common nature. But I am condemning you to death without considering those weaknesses or that nature"? There is a solidarity of ill men in error and aberration. Must that solidarity operate for the tribunal and be denied the accused? No, and if justice has any meaning in this world, it means nothing but the recognition of that solidarity; it cannot, by its very essence, divorce itself from compassion. Compassion, of course, can in this instance be but awareness of a common suffering and not a frivolous indulgence paying no attention to the sufferings and rights of the victim. Compassion does not exclude punishment, but it suspends the final condemnation. Compassion loathes the definitive, irreparable measure that does an injustice to mankind as a whole because of failing to take into account the wretchedness of the common condition.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection ... Guillotine
'Camus's main point in his argument against capital punishment is its ineffectiveness. Camus points out that in countries where the death penalty has already been abandoned crime has not risen. He explains this by arguing that the world has changed so that capital punishment no longer serves as the deterrent that it may once have been. In Camus's father's day the guillotine was still used to execute criminals in public but by the time Camus wrote his essay executions took place privately in prisons. Although Camus approved of conducting the executions in private he argued that it removed the element of deterrence and rendered the death penalty as merely a means for the state to dispose of those whom it saw as irremediable.
Camus also argued that the threat of death is insufficient to prevent people from committing crimes as death is the common fate shared by all, regardless of guilt. He also believed that because most murders are not premeditated no deterrent can be effective and in the case of premeditated murder the deterrent would be insufficient to stop those who have already decided to act.
Without serving a purpose Camus argued that capital punishment is reduced to an act of revenge that only breeds further violence, fueled only by sadism and perpetuated by tradition. He likened this act of state revenge to the concept of an eye for an eye and stated that justice should be based on law and principles and not instinct and emotions.
Although Camus opposed the use of capital punishment today, he gives examples in the essay of how it may have been logical and appropriate in pious civilizations. In such civilizations Camus states that the death penalty was usually administered by the Church in order to deprive the convicted of the divine gift of life. However, by doing so, the convicted would then face judgement and have the chance of atonement at the hands of God. In an unbelieving world, Camus argues, the convicted is given no chance of atonement. The process takes place completely separate from the convict and simply dismisses him as beyond salvation or remedy.
Camus also stated that in an unbelieving world there is no absolute authority capable of delivering judgement as no man possesses absolute innocence himself. Because of this Camus suggested that the maximum penalty should be set at life labor due to the possibility of judicial error, a life of labor in Camus's opinion being harsher than death but at least carrying the possibility of being reversed. The convicted would then also always have the option of choosing death via suicide.
Camus also argued that capital punishment was inappropriate because by effecting revenge for grievances it simultaneously hurts the family and loved ones of the convict in the same manner as those being avenged were hurt by the initial crime.'
Kinda harsh, no?
I can't help but feel like some people do not deserve to live any longer and others need to be protected from them.
But I see the point of others as well. I usually am just about to give up my support of it and then some jackass shoots his 6 month old kid in front of people. Cut and dry case...definitely guilty. And it makes it hard to say that he shouldn't be put to death.
this means a lot coming from you.
i am now no better than the sickest of the sick.
interesting.
i guess i am damaged like a child predator, torturing rapist, or serial killer.
it is awesome to finally be among these beasts, yet i have done nothing like they have.
shit, all i have done lately is smoke a little weed.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Murder the murderer?
Someone may shoot their kid, and for what reason? Could that individual be considered sane? Probably not. Whatever way you look at it, to then carry out a pre-meditated, clinical snuffing out of this individuals life makes you worse in my opinion. At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse. What's your excuse? (And I don't mean 'you' personally).
Those who support the death penalty place themselves on some sort of higher pedestal in the name of justice. But it's a pretty warped and perverse sense of justice. The kind of murder involved in a state execution is just as - if not more - depraved than any other type of murder outside of those prison walls, simply for the fact that it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'. It reeks of the lowest kind of hypocrisy.
Any murder is a tragedy, but it's also a tragedy for the murderer in my opinion. That murderer was a child once. Whenever such a thing occurs I think society needs to take a good look at itself, as opposed to simply wetting it's lips over the prospect of watching another individual fry.
I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but if you want to spend 50 pages of a thread cheering state-sanctioned, clinical murder then don't expect a pat on the back from me.
So it sounds like you're saying your position is based on emotion then, no?
Now!? Hell, I've been saying that all along!
i enjoy vigilantly justice the most.
that is truly a lost art form.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
did you know that the US is the only country in the WORLD that executes child offenders? as in those under 18? and it's actually against international law, which the US says it's above?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I am so SO sorry that you are having to go through this! There's not much worse in the world than losing a good friend, especially to senseless violence.
so you can excuse a child-murderer if someone tells you he is insane?
and what if the murderer is a normal sane person?
do you excuse him?
"it's carried out in the name of something supposedly 'good', 'decent', and 'just'"??
i don't see it that way
i believe it's carried out in the name of something "horrible, "indecent, and "unjust"
the murder itself
and a tradgedy for the murderer???
so you would have felt pain if dahmer had been executed?
or gacy?
or hitler?
you do know hitler was a child once too
atta was a child once
should we forgive him for 9-11?
i think it's hypocritical to worry about everything that is wrong with the human race
and support and give excuses to murderers who have clearly decided that they no longer want to be a part of it
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
this may shock and/or surprise you, and even to some on my end of the capital punishment debate, but I personally found even Saddam Hussein's execution sickening. How it was carried out, and that it was carried out at all.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
i found it disgusting that people were so willing to focus on Saddam Hussein's guilt and how much fun it was going to be to kill him. it was sickening how much delight was shown when he was actually executed. i guess those people who were rejoycing, forgot who supported Saddam for decades. of course there wasn't any mention of that.
Firstly, I made no mention of excusing anybody. As for Hitler being a child once, so was Reagan, and George W. Bush. They are all responsible for mass killings from the comfort of their armchairs. Do I think the crimes of such individuals warrant murder becoming a legitimate form of justice? Nope. We should never allow ourselves to be dragged down to their level. If murder is wrong, then it should be wrong for everyone, including us.
Someone attending an execution in the U.S, sitting there smugly, and sanctimoniously clutching a Bible whilst someone's life is snuffed out in front of them is no less depraved to me than Dahmer calmly dispatching his victims.
i watched the footage. they could have done it in a more civilized manner. they brought him in and everyone there was mocking him and they all chanted "muqtada muqtada mudtada". he was very dignified and did not fight back or resist at all. they put a hood on him, affixed the noose, and let him drop. it was pretty chilling and i will never forget what i saw.
i was really surprised and sickend by how people were celebrating and claiming retribution for 9/11 when it had long been established that iraq had nothing to do with it. i guess the sheep will believe what they want to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary....but that is a topic for another thread i guess....
in the end it was georgie boy getting revenge for his old man. ironically, georgie could have met the same fate at the hague for crimes against humanity himself, and that is another thread as well...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"At least a child murderer has insanity as his excuse"
you said you did not make excuses for anyone
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
you felt bad when you saw saddam executed?
http://history1900s.about.com/od/saddam ... crimes.htm
what is wrong with you people?
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13