the death penalty

Godfather.

inmate cost...
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/statsbrief/cost.html
$55.09 per day

also...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 620AAT4aSv

Where the costs differ is in the prosecution / trial. Capital cases involving the death penalty are much more costly to prosecute. The defense typically gets 2-3 attorneys (even for indigent defendants) you also have numerous expert testimony and then there are the automatic appeals and the numerous other appeals that are typically filed.

Yes the system is flawed.


Godfather.

ed243421

johnny
what facts do you have other than the numbers they have sold you?

ajedigecko

i wonder.......if the topic were about "big business corporate men" taking the monies and living lavish lifestyles off the backs of working peoples.

how many here would be for death penalty?

wolfamongwolves

ed243421 wrote:

why all the anger here?
these are our opinions
i believe mine
you, yours
i understand opinions can be changed
but at this point in time
this is where we are at
and to get angry at someone
because they do not believe what you do
tells me that the angered ones
are insecure in their own beliefs

For once, we are in complete agreement.

JonnyPistachio

ed243421 wrote:

johnny
what facts do you have other than the numbers they have sold you?

good job answering... Kinda what I was expecting.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

you want to kill people and you're calling US angry? that would be comical if it wasn't so ridiculous.

ed243421 wrote:

why all the anger here?
these are our opinions
i believe mine
you, yours
i understand opinions can be changed
but at this point in time
this is where we are at
and to get angry at someone
because they do not believe what you do
tells me that the angered ones
are insecure in their own beliefs

eyedclaar

redrock wrote:

81 wrote:

if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. these people know the consequences

I don't think we are debating that. What is being debated is the consequence itself. One is killing a person to avenge the killing of another one. Not really for punishment, in my opinion, but for revenge.

And to me, it isn’t entirely about revenge (I agree no act of retribution can erase a crime that has already been committed), but it is a matter of practicality moving forward. Obviously, the flawed law enforcement/court system and aforementioned costs associated with state sanctioned executions are prohibitive, but figure out a way to streamline this process and I don’t think killing violent sickos and predatory molesters is a bad idea. We don’t cage rabid dogs, we put them down, and honestly, I’m a lot more sympathetic towards the sick dog because they have no choice in their illness, people usually do. Not always. Obviously, I know of many mentally shattered combat vets, but even with those, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that someone’s mind is broken and they are a genuine threat to others, no matter where you try to contain them. And hell, it isn’t cheap to warehouse human beings either, and frankly, I’m not sure I even see the point. Lock me in a cage, and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

All this talk about “rights” and “good” and “evil” and “murder” is amusing because there is no universal definition for these things. You think that nobody has the right to kill another person, which makes me laugh because first, it happens all the time (rights end where reality begins), and second, it is all too easy to imagine scenarios in which killing certain people benefits the greater good. Philosophically, I can understand and accept that.

You might think I have this unholy bloodlust or something, but I’ll tell you, all throughout my life I have stood up against bullies and pricks. I have never started shit with someone who didn’t deserve it. I was ostracized in high school for attacking the middle linebacker, captain of the football team, during gym class one day when he checked some Vietnamese exchange student literally half his size into a wall and then started laughing. The gym teacher had to tackle me to stop my beating of him with a hockey stick. I don’t regret it for one second.

As far as I’m concerned, we as humans let our big dumb brains rationalize the shitty behavior of others which in turn justifies inaction. We tolerate the worst in people, mostly because we are afraid. Fuck that. I live by the platinum rule. Do unto others as you would have them do ten times unto you. I guess if it makes me a hypocrite to want to dispose of violent people, then so be it; I’ve been called much worse.

JonnyPistachio

eyedclaar wrote:

redrock wrote:

81 wrote:

if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. these people know the consequences

I don't think we are debating that. What is being debated is the consequence itself. One is killing a person to avenge the killing of another one. Not really for punishment, in my opinion, but for revenge.

And to me, it isn’t entirely about revenge (I agree no act of retribution can erase a crime that has already been committed), but it is a matter of practicality moving forward. Obviously, the flawed law enforcement/court system and aforementioned costs associated with state sanctioned executions are prohibitive, but figure out a way to streamline this process and I don’t think killing violent sickos and predatory molesters is a bad idea. We don’t cage rabid dogs, we put them down, and honestly, I’m a lot more sympathetic towards the sick dog because they have no choice in their illness, people usually do. Not always. Obviously, I know of many mentally shattered combat vets, but even with those, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that someone’s mind is broken and they are a genuine threat to others, no matter where you try to contain them. And hell, it isn’t cheap to warehouse human beings either, and frankly, I’m not sure I even see the point. Lock me in a cage, and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

All this talk about “rights” and “good” and “evil” and “murder” is amusing because there is no universal definition for these things. You think that nobody has the right to kill another person, which makes me laugh because first, it happens all the time (rights end where reality begins), and second, it is all too easy to imagine scenarios in which killing certain people benefits the greater good. Philosophically, I can understand and accept that.

You might think I have this unholy bloodlust or something, but I’ll tell you, all throughout my life I have stood up against bullies and pricks. I have never started shit with someone who didn’t deserve it. I was ostracized in high school for attacking the middle linebacker, captain of the football team, during gym class one day when he checked some Vietnamese exchange student literally half his size into a wall and then started laughing. The gym teacher had to tackle me to stop my beating of him with a hockey stick. I don’t regret it for one second.

As far as I’m concerned, we as humans let our big dumb brains rationalize the shitty behavior of others which in turn justifies inaction. We tolerate the worst in people, mostly because we are afraid. Fuck that. I live by the platinum rule. Do unto others as you would have them do ten times unto you. I guess if it makes me a hypocrite to want to dispose of violent people, then so be it; I’ve been called much worse.

understandable man, and I lke what you say. Trust me, I appreciate that Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez are not alive anymore to threaten people. I have said I have a hard time deciding how I feel about the DP. But with all its flaws and mistakes and unruly costs, it seems the current practice is poorly managed. I cannot chose between an imaginary perfect system however, and one that has its mistakes. And I personally think that wiht all the evidence accumulated that shows there have been mistakes -- that it is a barbaric, patheic, and truly flawed practice. But many of the pro death penalty people here seems to ignore those issues. The imaginary world where the movie Moinority Report, or our guarantee that a person is 100% guilty IS NOT HERE.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I can't reconcile "rights end where reality begins". Is that what you would have had African Americans believe in the 50's?

I'd like to hear your explanation of just how human beings have a choice in their mental illnesses.

eyedclaar wrote:

redrock wrote:

81 wrote:

if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. these people know the consequences

I don't think we are debating that. What is being debated is the consequence itself. One is killing a person to avenge the killing of another one. Not really for punishment, in my opinion, but for revenge.

And to me, it isn’t entirely about revenge (I agree no act of retribution can erase a crime that has already been committed), but it is a matter of practicality moving forward. Obviously, the flawed law enforcement/court system and aforementioned costs associated with state sanctioned executions are prohibitive, but figure out a way to streamline this process and I don’t think killing violent sickos and predatory molesters is a bad idea. We don’t cage rabid dogs, we put them down, and honestly, I’m a lot more sympathetic towards the sick dog because they have no choice in their illness, people usually do. Not always. Obviously, I know of many mentally shattered combat vets, but even with those, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that someone’s mind is broken and they are a genuine threat to others, no matter where you try to contain them. And hell, it isn’t cheap to warehouse human beings either, and frankly, I’m not sure I even see the point. Lock me in a cage, and someone is going to get hurt eventually.

All this talk about “rights” and “good” and “evil” and “murder” is amusing because there is no universal definition for these things. You think that nobody has the right to kill another person, which makes me laugh because first, it happens all the time (rights end where reality begins), and second, it is all too easy to imagine scenarios in which killing certain people benefits the greater good. Philosophically, I can understand and accept that.

You might think I have this unholy bloodlust or something, but I’ll tell you, all throughout my life I have stood up against bullies and pricks. I have never started shit with someone who didn’t deserve it. I was ostracized in high school for attacking the middle linebacker, captain of the football team, during gym class one day when he checked some Vietnamese exchange student literally half his size into a wall and then started laughing. The gym teacher had to tackle me to stop my beating of him with a hockey stick. I don’t regret it for one second.

As far as I’m concerned, we as humans let our big dumb brains rationalize the shitty behavior of others which in turn justifies inaction. We tolerate the worst in people, mostly because we are afraid. Fuck that. I live by the platinum rule. Do unto others as you would have them do ten times unto you. I guess if it makes me a hypocrite to want to dispose of violent people, then so be it; I’ve been called much worse.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

JonnyPistachio wrote:

The imaginary world where the movie Moinority Report, or our guarantee that a person is 100% guilty IS NOT HERE.

and that's it, isn't it?

BinauralJam

This is a fun thread today.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

ed243421 wrote:

why all the anger here?

let me be clear one last time. there is no anger here. just passion for life, the right to it, and the love of my fellow human being, no matter how flawed.

ed243421

Paul David wrote:

you want to kill people and you're calling US angry? that would be comical if it wasn't so ridiculous.

ed243421 wrote:

why all the anger here?
these are our opinions
i believe mine
you, yours
i understand opinions can be changed
but at this point in time
this is where we are at
and to get angry at someone
because they do not believe what you do
tells me that the angered ones
are insecure in their own beliefs

i no longer consider murderers people

JonnyPistachio

Paul David wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

The imaginary world where the movie Moinority Report, or our guarantee that a person is 100% guilty IS NOT HERE.

and that's it, isn't it?

Thats all I need man.

I cant imagine how many lives and families have been ruined by an innocent person being put on death row.
I know, please dont say "well, guess how many lives have been ruined by an axe murderer!" Because I am aware of that too, and it is horribly sadening.

What scares me is when i'm an innocent person and an axe murderer takes my head off.

--but--

What scares me even more is when i'm an innocent person and a lawyer, judge, random jury, and my government takes my head off.

JonnyPistachio

ed243421 wrote:

Paul David wrote:

you want to kill people and you're calling US angry? that would be comical if it wasn't so ridiculous.

ed243421 wrote:

why all the anger here?
these are our opinions
i believe mine
you, yours
i understand opinions can be changed
but at this point in time
this is where we are at
and to get angry at someone
because they do not believe what you do
tells me that the angered ones
are insecure in their own beliefs

i no longer consider murderers people

Are you willing to consider wrongfully accused murderers people?

eyedclaar

Paul David wrote:

I can't reconcile "rights end where reality begins". Is that what you would have had African Americans believe in the 50's?

I'd like to hear your explanation of just how human beings have a choice in their mental illnesses.

I think African Americans of today would understand exactly what I mean. Their “rights” afford them equal treatment in the eyes of our law enforcement and court systems, but that isn’t how reality works. I didn't say that's how it should be. I said that's how it is.

And I have my share of mental illness, that’s why I speak about it. Also, my job puts me in contact with those dealing with it. Some, like myself, are usually able to make healthy decisions even when their instincts are screaming at them to act differently. I know guys in management positions that wake up every night from horrible combat related nightmares, severe PTSD. Somehow they keep it together. Some can’t control themselves at all.

TriumphantAngel

Paul David wrote:

I even think what they did to Saddam was disgusting. Do you think GWB deserves the same for all his crimes against humanity? How about all of the innocent lives he snuffed out for the greater American good?

any of the pro death penalty folks here have any thoughts on this?

JonnyPistachio

ed243421 wrote:

johnny
what facts do you have other than the numbers they have sold you?

Just a few in case you were interested:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty ... id=1101084

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

University of Vermont
http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/

This msnbc article was very good all the way around. In fact, It had me wondering about the future of the DP.

Kat

This thread has deteriorated.

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