Any citizen "with rights" is free to live and breathe under the law within society. Any person who take's away that person's "right to live and be part of society" is removed and put into jail - that is why we have them. "Have another opportunity to take more lives" is merely a drastic flaw of society and our legal system - and in no way reflects people appreciation to give people a second change and reform themselves. With some crimes, people should be in jail for life and these are the types that we're discussing. Killing someone who doesn't see the wrong in their action, doesn't see the sanctity of life and freedom of others to live, does not care if they die, but if they knew they would simply rot in jail the rest of their lives, it would drastically teach a lesson to society and those carrying out such acts. I don't want to keep repeating myself, so please read this if you haven't. (http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=135469&start=600#p3077160)
Not really. You are removing someone that has proven to be a killer from having the opportunity to take more lives.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i also felt terribly when i watched the live coverage of hussein's death. maybe because i felt it was the end of a long tragic story that everyone knew for 3 years was going to end that way? i don't know. i saw the cell phone video execution footage a few days after the hanging and heard the people berating saddam and chanting "muqtada, muqtada"....a very undignified way to die indeed. yes he was a bad man, but i still do not feel like anything was gained by his death that could not have been gained by locking him up for life. and no i am not a hussein supporter/apologist.
i agree with several people on here that the state murdering someone will not bring the victims back, and it will not prevent them from killing again because they will be in jail and will only be a threat to other inmates if they are allowed in the general prison population. it costs more to put someone to death than it does to jail them for life. with our system there are appeals after appeals and the state has to pay to try those people time and time again.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
who are you guy's trying to convince ? in a state if a majority votes for it then it is what it is right ?
and once that bullet is fired or the switch is thrown or the plunger pushed to the bottom it is what it is because the larger majority wanted it that way,if you want it changed then vote in that direction.
there now wasn't that ez........bad horse !
Godfather.
this is a state issue and every state has a provision for or against it in their state constitution. it is not like you can change it with a single vote. this sort of thing is done with legislation, or decree by the state governor, not voting.
No because you're not teaching anyone the value of life, but simply reinforcing if you take one, you may lose your own. That's not the same lesson at all. And the people who typically commit crimes deemed worthy of such punishment don't value their own life - so no lesson or societal moral code is set. It sets forth the notion of not caring about the punishment, which also cheapens life as a whole, not properly reinforcing the idea that life is good, so don't take it away. It merely amounts to a punishment system based upon vengeance and convenience.
I guess it is all how you look at it, as I see it saying that no one man's life is worth more than anothers, and when you take one through purposeful malicious actions, you are indeed required to give your own. All justice is based on vengeance.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Nowhere in "justice" is vengeance... that's merely our society's sick interpretation and practice of it...which is also why we have such a silly punishment in place. And if no one life is worth more than another, why is it ok for two wrongs to make a right?
I guess it is all how you look at it, as I see it saying that no one man's life is worth more than anothers, and when you take one through purposeful malicious actions, you are indeed required to give your own. All justice is based on vengeance.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
adolph hitler, the rest of the nazi SS
and dr. joseph mengele (aka angel of death)
all deserve to live?
that is if they were alive today and captured.
...
Does Werner von Braun fall into that category?
He headed Germany's rocket program that created the V-1 and V-2 rockets that terrorized civilian populations in London... was a member of the Nazi Party and a commissioned officer in the SS. His program's manufacturing used slave labor from concentration camps... the manufacturing process of the V-1 and V-2 were responsible for more deaths than the weapons themselves.
...
And now... there are monuments and buildings here in the U.S. that bear his name.
...
Now... ask yourself that question again.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Any citizen "with rights" is free to live and breathe under the law within society. Any person who take's away that person's "right to live and be part of society" is removed and put into jail - that is why we have them. "Have another opportunity to take more lives" is merely a drastic flaw of society and our legal system - and in no way reflects people appreciation to give people a second change and reform themselves. With some crimes, people should be in jail for life and these are the types that we're discussing. Killing someone who doesn't see the wrong in their action, doesn't see the sanctity of life and freedom of others to live, does not care if they die, but if they knew they would simply rot in jail the rest of their lives, it would drastically teach a lesson to society and those carrying out such acts. I don't want to keep repeating myself, so please read this if you haven't. (http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=135469&start=600#p3077160)
A few months back I watch a great show about the creation, history and spread of nuclear weapons in the world. One of the areas they touched upon was this exact issue. Several of the people who created the weaponry basically knew they made something beyond their own grasp and it's development and use would reach beyond the power any one person or group should control. The same could be said about the invention of dynamite who never wanted it used for that kind or purpose.
...
Does Werner von Braun fall into that category?
He headed Germany's rocket program that created the V-1 and V-2 rockets that terrorized civilian populations in London... was a member of the Nazi Party and a commissioned officer in the SS. His program's manufacturing used slave labor from concentration camps... the manufacturing process of the V-1 and V-2 were responsible for more deaths than the weapons themselves.
...
And now... there are monuments and buildings here in the U.S. that bear his name.
...
Now... ask yourself that question again.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Sorry you don't agree but that's exactly what it is. You deem it differently because you feel the result is somehow equivalent or deserved, but that doesn't take away from it. Can't be for and against the same idea.. it's inconsistent and yes, hypocritical. Life is either valuable and no one should take it away, not even a government sanctioned law/punishment, or it is not valuable and if people break the laws, they will be killed just as they acted out (different manner, same result). The rest of the argument is mere double-talk and justification for carrying out a second wrong-doing.
If you don;t want to keep repeating yourself stop making stupid comments about hypocrisy. There is no hypocrisy there.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Sorry you don't agree but that's exactly what it is. You deem it differently because you feel the result is somehow equivalent or deserved, but that doesn't take away from it. Can't be for and against the same idea.. it's inconsistent and yes, hypocritical. Life is either valuable and no one should take it away, not even a government sanctioned law/punishment, or it is not valuable and if people break the laws, they will be killed just as they acted out (different manner, same result). The rest of the argument is mere double-talk and justification for carrying out a second wrong-doing.
No because you're not teaching anyone the value of life, but simply reinforcing if you take one, you may lose your own. That's not the same lesson at all. And the people who typically commit crimes deemed worthy of such punishment don't value their own life - so no lesson or societal moral code is set. It sets forth the notion of not caring about the punishment, which also cheapens life as a whole, not properly reinforcing the idea that life is good, so don't take it away. It merely amounts to a punishment system based upon vengeance and convenience.
I agree. The lesson isn't You can't take a life; the lesson is You can take a life only if you have a good reason. Totally different.
im back with the entertainment committee
:twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :shock: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i believe in axes and fucking around
i am not even kidding
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Taking a life to show some sort of misguided punishment which is supposed to protect the sanctity of life isn't hypocrisy?
doesn't it reinforce the value of life?
if you take someone's stuff you get punished with a few years, you assault someone you get punished, but the only punishment that fits taking a life, is in deed getting yours taken from you. I would say it isn't hypocrisy at all, but more so a statement on how much another person's life is worth.
no it does not reinforce the value of life. but then again i guess itd depend on your measure of value.
if you steal, you dont have your things stolen from you as punishment. if you assault someone, you are not assaulted as punishment.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
A few months back I watch a great show about the creation, history and spread of nuclear weapons in the world. One of the areas they touched upon was this exact issue. Several of the people who created the weaponry basically knew they made something beyond their own grasp and it's development and use would reach beyond the power any one person or group should control. The same could be said about the invention of dynamite who never wanted it used for that kind or purpose.
...
Does Werner von Braun fall into that category?
He headed Germany's rocket program that created the V-1 and V-2 rockets that terrorized civilian populations in London... was a member of the Nazi Party and a commissioned officer in the SS. His program's manufacturing used slave labor from concentration camps... the manufacturing process of the V-1 and V-2 were responsible for more deaths than the weapons themselves.
...
And now... there are monuments and buildings here in the U.S. that bear his name.
...
Now... ask yourself that question again.
Yes, and let's not forget all the innocent Americans who involuntarily lost their lives in the mining of uranium for those nuclear weapons, though the people making the bombs knew the consequences to the miners.
Sorry you don't agree but that's exactly what it is. You deem it differently because you feel the result is somehow equivalent or deserved, but that doesn't take away from it. Can't be for and against the same idea.. it's inconsistent and yes, hypocritical. Life is either valuable and no one should take it away, not even a government sanctioned law/punishment, or it is not valuable and if people break the laws, they will be killed just as they acted out (different manner, same result). The rest of the argument is mere double-talk and justification for carrying out a second wrong-doing.
to quote cosmo; maybe because some you serve up a pitch that he just has to take a swing at.
no offence cosmo, it just seem to fit this just all too well.
to quote cosmo; maybe because some you serve up a pitch that he just has to take a swing at.
no offence cosmo, it just seem to fit this just all too well.
Godfather.
...
Hmmmm... I don't get it.
He said Hitler and the Nazis responsible should all be executed had it occurred today... I asked about von Braun... a Nazi officer in the SS that was responsible for the deaths of slave laborers from the concentration camps who was rewarded by the U.S. and lived in wealth til an old age. That's a meatball?
I don't get it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Taking a life to show some sort of misguided punishment which is supposed to protect the sanctity of life isn't hypocrisy?
doesn't it reinforce the value of life?
if you take someone's stuff you get punished with a few years, you assault someone you get punished, but the only punishment that fits taking a life, is in deed getting yours taken from you. I would say it isn't hypocrisy at all, but more so a statement on how much another person's life is worth.
no it does not reinforce the value of life. but then again i guess itd depend on your measure of value.
if you steal, you dont have your things stolen from you as punishment. if you assault someone, you are not assaulted as punishment.
which just reinforces the value. I am worth so much that no amount of restitution will make up for it, the only thing that pays that bill is your life.
Now that doesn't mean that I am for it in practice however. because of the possibility of innocent men being convicted in an imperfect justice system, it should only be used on those that confess to a murder and there is irrefutable evidence to support that confession.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I understand your point about the absolute certainty of a crime before such a punishment, but with your below scenario, you're basically allowing the criminal to set their own punishment and in most instances, it's what they want. Death in such a scenario is not a punishment as they have no care for their or anyone else's life, but life in prison is a punishment no one would want.
which just reinforces the value. I am worth so much that no amount of restitution will make up for it, the only thing that pays that bill is your life.
Now that doesn't mean that I am for it in practice however. because of the possibility of innocent men being convicted in an imperfect justice system, it should only be used on those that confess to a murder and there is irrefutable evidence to support that confession.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I understand your point about the absolute certainty of a crime before such a punishment, but with your below scenario, you're basically allowing the criminal to set their own punishment and in most instances, it's what they want. Death in such a scenario is not a punishment as they have no care for their or anyone else's life, but life in prison is a punishment no one would want.
which just reinforces the value. I am worth so much that no amount of restitution will make up for it, the only thing that pays that bill is your life.
Now that doesn't mean that I am for it in practice however. because of the possibility of innocent men being convicted in an imperfect justice system, it should only be used on those that confess to a murder and there is irrefutable evidence to support that confession.
that is quite an assumption. there are plenty of people on death row trying as hard as they can to stay alive through appeals. They may have to live in prison, but they still get to live.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
How is it an assumption? Is the purpose of such a punishment to install the notion that life is valuable and therefore if you take a life, you may lose your own? If so, then it is not an assumption because anyone who takes a life does not value theirs or others. Unless, you just solely believe it's easier to wash your hands of the criminal from society, the intent, punishment and rational for such is inconsistent and terribly flawed.
that is quite an assumption. there are plenty of people on death row trying as hard as they can to stay alive through appeals. They may have to live in prison, but they still get to live.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
How is it an assumption? Is the purpose of such a punishment to install the notion that life is valuable and therefore if you take a life, you may lose your own? If so, then it is not an assumption because anyone who takes a life does not value theirs or others. Unless, you just solely believe it's easier to wash your hands of the criminal from society, the intent, punishment and rational for such is inconsistent and terribly flawed.
that is quite an assumption. there are plenty of people on death row trying as hard as they can to stay alive through appeals. They may have to live in prison, but they still get to live.
the assumption you made was that prison for life would be worse than death.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
How is it an assumption? Is the purpose of such a punishment to install the notion that life is valuable and therefore if you take a life, you may lose your own? If so, then it is not an assumption because anyone who takes a life does not value theirs or others. Unless, you just solely believe it's easier to wash your hands of the criminal from society, the intent, punishment and rational for such is inconsistent and terribly flawed.
that is quite an assumption. there are plenty of people on death row trying as hard as they can to stay alive through appeals. They may have to live in prison, but they still get to live.
but more so you jump to the assumption that someone who kills someone else does not value you their life. Most people don''t kill someone with the intention of being caught. So the value they place on their own life is irrelevant.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i agree with several people on here that the state murdering someone will not bring the victims back, and it will not prevent them from killing again because they will be in jail and will only be a threat to other inmates if they are allowed in the general prison population. it costs more to put someone to death than it does to jail them for life. with our system there are appeals after appeals and the state has to pay to try those people time and time again.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
O.K thanks, how bout that break ?
Godfather.
I guess it is all how you look at it, as I see it saying that no one man's life is worth more than anothers, and when you take one through purposeful malicious actions, you are indeed required to give your own. All justice is based on vengeance.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justice
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Does Werner von Braun fall into that category?
He headed Germany's rocket program that created the V-1 and V-2 rockets that terrorized civilian populations in London... was a member of the Nazi Party and a commissioned officer in the SS. His program's manufacturing used slave labor from concentration camps... the manufacturing process of the V-1 and V-2 were responsible for more deaths than the weapons themselves.
...
And now... there are monuments and buildings here in the U.S. that bear his name.
...
Now... ask yourself that question again.
Hail, Hail!!!
If you don;t want to keep repeating yourself stop making stupid comments about hypocrisy. There is no hypocrisy there.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
This is exactly why it is difficult to have any meaningful discussion on difficult issues...I thought you were done posting?
I agree. The lesson isn't You can't take a life; the lesson is You can take a life only if you have a good reason. Totally different.
:twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :shock: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i am not even kidding
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i have no encores anywhere
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
no it does not reinforce the value of life. but then again i guess itd depend on your measure of value.
if you steal, you dont have your things stolen from you as punishment. if you assault someone, you are not assaulted as punishment.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And if you could remove that person from having the opportunity to take more lives without killing him? Then what?
Yes, and let's not forget all the innocent Americans who involuntarily lost their lives in the mining of uranium for those nuclear weapons, though the people making the bombs knew the consequences to the miners.
Why? And where did he say he was done posting?
no offence cosmo, it just seem to fit this just all too well.
Godfather.
Hmmmm... I don't get it.
He said Hitler and the Nazis responsible should all be executed had it occurred today... I asked about von Braun... a Nazi officer in the SS that was responsible for the deaths of slave laborers from the concentration camps who was rewarded by the U.S. and lived in wealth til an old age. That's a meatball?
I don't get it.
Hail, Hail!!!
wait...
scratch that.
that would make the volcano ill.
take 'em out back behind the barn.
:twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :shock: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
nice work fellows
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
which just reinforces the value. I am worth so much that no amount of restitution will make up for it, the only thing that pays that bill is your life.
Now that doesn't mean that I am for it in practice however. because of the possibility of innocent men being convicted in an imperfect justice system, it should only be used on those that confess to a murder and there is irrefutable evidence to support that confession.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
that is quite an assumption. there are plenty of people on death row trying as hard as they can to stay alive through appeals. They may have to live in prison, but they still get to live.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
the assumption you made was that prison for life would be worse than death.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
but more so you jump to the assumption that someone who kills someone else does not value you their life. Most people don''t kill someone with the intention of being caught. So the value they place on their own life is irrelevant.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan