the death penalty

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Comments

  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    The death penalty sucks and everyone who is strongly for it uses extreme and uncommon examples for it's use. You can't make sounds policy and procedure based off extreme circumstances. Also, here are a few obvious reasons we should not have the death penalty:
    - The legal system sucks. It is neither fair, just, right, offer good due process nor impenetrable to money to buy freedom or atleast alter the outcome. Also, most of the people who are in the predicament to be executed didn't have trials which offer todays' modern technology to dispel without a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty and therefore should be put to death. For such a punishment, that certainty is necessary, not optional.

    - The death penalty whether economically (even though it's more expensive) or socially is just an easy way for society and people as a whole to wash their hands of the unwanted, sick or evil of culture. It's not about justice or anything remotely due, simply convenience.

    - The death penalty serves no real punishment for anyone actually warranting a crime of that level. People don't commit crimes like that and relish life, they hate it - so killing them is merely giving them what they wish for. In a perfect world, we'd have prisons (for any level of crime) or aptly named "corrections" facilities to do just that, but instead they're no such thing as rehabilitation. That is nonsense and something we coin to make ourselves feel better, but certainly not serving it's purpose by any stretch of the imagination.

    - The death penalty does not serve any social and personal value of justice, merit or moral lesson to install upon society. No victim returns, no family gets their member back, it's merely teaching society as a whole, if you do x, then y could be the outcome. That does not stop x from happening, in fact it does the opposite.

    A legal system with the death penalty as a form of "justice" is mere vengeance and convenience.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    chadwick wrote:
    but are the drunk drivers serial killers, serial rapists, and serial child molesters?
    fuck no they are not.
    question for you chadwick as you keep mentioning serial killiers, serial rapists and child molesters in the same breath.

    why then, if it is not morally okay to rape rapists, is it acceptable to execute murderers?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    It's mere hypocrisy - the glaring statement... if life were truly sacred as these people claim, they wouldn't participate, enable or push forth policies that have such repercussions. Life is only sacred to those who feel it should apply to them.
    chadwick wrote:
    but are the drunk drivers serial killers, serial rapists, and serial child molesters?
    fuck no they are not.
    question for you chadwick as you keep mentioning serial killiers, serial rapists and child molesters in the same breath.

    why then, if it is not morally okay to rape rapists, is it acceptable to execute murderers?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    FiveB247x wrote:
    It's mere hypocrisy - the glaring statement... if life were truly sacred as these people claim, they wouldn't participate, enable or push forth policies that have such repercussions. Life is only sacred to those who feel it should apply to them.
    chadwick wrote:
    but are the drunk drivers serial killers, serial rapists, and serial child molesters?
    fuck no they are not.
    question for you chadwick as you keep mentioning serial killiers, serial rapists and child molesters in the same breath.

    why then, if it is not morally okay to rape rapists, is it acceptable to execute murderers?
    indeed it is. hypocrisy at it's finest.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    there is nothing sacred about a monster.
    their life is a waste of space.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    chadwick wrote:
    but are the drunk drivers serial killers, serial rapists, and serial child molesters?
    fuck no they are not.
    question for you chadwick as you keep mentioning serial killiers, serial rapists and child molesters in the same breath.

    why then, if it is not morally okay to rape rapists, is it acceptable to execute murderers?
    games are over.
    end it swiftly.
    torture sucks ass.
    a fast bullet is the end.
    the end.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    the death penalty doesn't bring peace or healing to the victims families no matter how the person died. you can't spend the rest of your life focussing on that anger otherwise it poisons you and you become a victim all over again. it destroys you, messes with you and it just never stops. you spend more time thinking of revenge and less time on honoring your loved ones memory and remembering the happy times. you have to somehow let go...

    Very well said. I've been searching for these words but couldn't find them.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    what i do have is zero tolerance for cruelty.
    it makes me happy when cruelty loses.
    it's that simple.

    You say you have zero tolerance for cruelty and yet you exhibit cruelty - and therefore cruelty has won.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    What is a "monster" exactly? A killer, a pedophile, a torturer, a solider, someone who pulls the switch or presses a button, or perhaps a tax payer who funds weapons that kill innocents? It is not black and white, but instead a very gray area for which you ignore and separate to easily good and bad only to justify it in the end to yourself.
    chadwick wrote:
    there is nothing sacred about a monster.
    their life is a waste of space.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    what i do have is zero tolerance for cruelty.
    it makes me happy when cruelty loses.
    it's that simple.

    You say you have zero tolerance for cruelty and yet you exhibit cruelty - and therefore cruelty has won.
    in your eyes i am sure i do exhibit cruelty.
    do i care what you think of me?
    not really.

    i say when we die the creator can sort it out.
    until then, cruelty on earth sucks dog shit and i wont stand for it.
    pull the switch, pull the trigger.
    the end.

    with every last bone fiber in my being i am positive i am the good guy.
    believe it or not, i do not care how you view me.
    i am not here to impress any of you.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    FiveB247x wrote:
    The death penalty sucks and everyone who is strongly for it uses extreme and uncommon examples for it's use. You can't make sounds policy and procedure based off extreme circumstances. Also, here are a few obvious reasons we should not have the death penalty:
    - The legal system sucks. It is neither fair, just, right, offer good due process nor impenetrable to money to buy freedom or atleast alter the outcome. Also, most of the people who are in the predicament to be executed didn't have trials which offer todays' modern technology to dispel without a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty and therefore should be put to death. For such a punishment, that certainty is necessary, not optional.

    - The death penalty whether economically (even though it's more expensive) or socially is just an easy way for society and people as a whole to wash their hands of the unwanted, sick or evil of culture. It's not about justice or anything remotely due, simply convenience.

    - The death penalty serves no real punishment for anyone actually warranting a crime of that level. People don't commit crimes like that and relish life, they hate it - so killing them is merely giving them what they wish for. In a perfect world, we'd have prisons (for any level of crime) or aptly named "corrections" facilities to do just that, but instead they're no such thing as rehabilitation. That is nonsense and something we coin to make ourselves feel better, but certainly not serving it's purpose by any stretch of the imagination.

    - The death penalty does not serve any social and personal value of justice, merit or moral lesson to install upon society. No victim returns, no family gets their member back, it's merely teaching society as a whole, if you do x, then y could be the outcome. That does not stop x from happening, in fact it does the opposite.

    A legal system with the death penalty as a form of "justice" is mere vengeance and convenience.

    You know, I think you make a good point about society using the death penalty to wash our hands of our own evils. I think the death penalty and especially the attitudes that support it are a convenient way for us to try to exonerate our society of any culpability. We place all the focus on the "evil" individual and disavow him as a member of our society - or even our species - so as to detract from the fact that society has likely failed the individual, and there are frequently things we could have done (or ways we could better structure our society) that could have decreased the likelihood of these crimes occurring to begin with.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Isn't this very narrow scope? Firstly its premise is that everyone believes in a god/creator - not true. Secondly, if cruelty on earth sucks, then why not kill... not simply the death penalty, but why obey laws to begin with? It's merely a catch 22 or circular argument. Also, not judging your character or similar, but so many people kill or do awful things with the belief "they're the good guy".
    chadwick wrote:
    in your eyes i am sure i do exhibit cruelty.
    do i care what you think of me?
    not really.

    i say when we die the creator can sort it out.
    until then, cruelty on earth sucks dog shit and i wont stand for it.
    pull the switch, pull the trigger.
    the end.

    with every last bone fiber in my being i am positive i am the good guy.
    believe it or not, i do not care how you view me.
    i am not here to impress any of you.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Thanks, I'm sure many do have mental or genetic related causes, but much of society that we deem criminal or "bad" are merely, as you describe, the failed. Most don't care to think it as this solely to separate themselves for illusion and guilt. Thanks for the kind words.
    scb wrote:
    You know, I think you make a good point about society using the death penalty to wash our hands of our own evils. I think the death penalty and especially the attitudes that support it are a convenient way for us to try to exonerate our society of any culpability. We place all the focus on the "evil" individual and disavow him as a member of our society - or even our species - so as to detract from the fact that society has likely failed the individual, and there are frequently things we could have done (or ways we could better structure our society) that could have decreased the likelihood of these crimes occurring to begin with.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    what i do have is zero tolerance for cruelty.
    it makes me happy when cruelty loses.
    it's that simple.

    You say you have zero tolerance for cruelty and yet you exhibit cruelty - and therefore cruelty has won.
    in your eyes i am sure i do exhibit cruelty.
    do i care what you think of me?
    not really.

    i say when we die the creator can sort it out.
    until then, cruelty on earth sucks dog shit and i wont stand for it.
    pull the switch, pull the trigger.
    the end.

    with every last bone fiber in my being i am positive i am the good guy.
    believe it or not, i do not care how you view me.
    i am not here to impress any of you.

    I believe you don't care how I view you. And I believe you believe you're the good guy. But there is no good guy. There is no evil guy. Life's just not black or white like that. But I find your need to believe that it is and to create such absolute distance between you and "them" to be interesting. Or maybe you're just fucking with us.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Isn't this very narrow scope? Firstly its premise is that everyone believes in a god/creator - not true. Secondly, if cruelty on earth sucks, then why not kill... not simply the death penalty, but why obey laws to begin with? It's merely a catch 22 or circular argument. Also, not judging your character or similar, but so many people kill or do awful things with the belief "they're the good guy".

    my scope is so far from narrow you yourself could create a universe inside of it.
    true, not everyone believes in god or a creator.
    i do and that's all that matters to me.

    lots of laws are bullshit.
    i haven't obeyed the law in what, 38 years?
    vigilantly justice... outstanding.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    FiveB247x wrote:
    so many people kill or do awful things with the belief "they're the good guy".

    Ding ding ding! We have a winner! :P
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    I believe you don't care how I view you. And I believe you believe you're the good guy. But there is no good guy. There is no evil guy. Life's just not black or white like that. But I find your need to believe that it is and to create such absolute distance between you and "them" to be interesting. Or maybe you're just fucking with us.
    please believe the following statement.

    i am not fucking with any of you at all.
    i am so serious your heads are spinning like tops.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Vigilantly justice creates violence/death/crime/abuse = Circular argument. The remedy creates the problem.
    chadwick wrote:
    my scope is so far from narrow you yourself could create a universe inside of it.
    true, not everyone believes in god or a creator.
    i do and that's all that matters to me.

    lots of laws are bullshit.
    i haven't obeyed the law in what, 38 years?
    vigilantly justice... outstanding.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Thanks, I'm sure many do have mental or genetic related causes, but much of society that we deem criminal or "bad" are merely, as you describe, the failed. Most don't care to think it as this solely to separate themselves for illusion and guilt. Thanks for the kind words.
    scb wrote:
    You know, I think you make a good point about society using the death penalty to wash our hands of our own evils. I think the death penalty and especially the attitudes that support it are a convenient way for us to try to exonerate our society of any culpability. We place all the focus on the "evil" individual and disavow him as a member of our society - or even our species - so as to detract from the fact that society has likely failed the individual, and there are frequently things we could have done (or ways we could better structure our society) that could have decreased the likelihood of these crimes occurring to begin with.

    I agree. And I think this very often applies to the mentally ill as well. For example, one of the worst killing sprees in the history of my city was committed a few years ago by a man who was mentally ill. He had tried numerous times to get help, but the mental health care system was too overloaded to deal with him and eventually he snapped. If we, as a society, truly don't want these kinds of things to happen, we need to work to ensure that our mental healthcare system has enough resources.

    Chadwick - do you work to ensure that our mental health system has enough resources? Or do you prefer to just let people get murdered so you can justify murdering them later?
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Isn't this very narrow scope? Firstly its premise is that everyone believes in a god/creator - not true. Secondly, if cruelty on earth sucks, then why not kill... not simply the death penalty, but why obey laws to begin with? It's merely a catch 22 or circular argument. Also, not judging your character or similar, but so many people kill or do awful things with the belief "they're the good guy".

    my scope is so far from narrow you yourself could create a universe inside of it.
    true, not everyone believes in god or a creator.
    i do and that's all that matters to me.

    lots of laws are bullshit.
    i haven't obeyed the law in what, 38 years?
    vigilantly justice... outstanding.

    So if I believe you're evil then it's reasonable for me to kill you? Want to go back to the state of nature, do ya?
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    this is so simple yet so fucked.
    we all have a strong opinion.

    you folks believe maniacs should live no matter how many chances they get.
    i believe after so many chances they should be sent away in a thin cedar box and placed in a shallow cold tomb.

    btw, some do not deserve a second chance.
    each crime is different, every criminal is different.
    simple shit.

    but they all have something in common... evil bullshit that needs to stop.

    fine, if you want them to live i suggest you folks get off your asses and feed them in their bullshit cells.
    it'll be fun for you to coddle demons.

    good luck.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I believe you don't care how I view you. And I believe you believe you're the good guy. But there is no good guy. There is no evil guy. Life's just not black or white like that. But I find your need to believe that it is and to create such absolute distance between you and "them" to be interesting. Or maybe you're just fucking with us.
    please believe the following statement.

    i am not fucking with any of you at all.
    i am so serious your heads are spinning like tops.

    Hmm... the need to believe you're causing our heads to spin like tops... sounds like someone who would be fucking with us to me. ;)
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I don't think anyone is really saying high level criminals should be released or sent back into society in some simple manner. We're just saying killing them is wrong. And if we killed all of our violent offenders as you say, our prison population (one of the highest in the world) would be drastically reduced and tons of prison workers would be out of work... so it'd be bad for the economy ;)
    chadwick wrote:
    this is so simple yet so fucked.
    we all have a strong opinion.

    you folks believe maniacs should live no matter how many chances they get.
    i believe after so many chances they should be sent away in a thin cedar box and placed in a shallow cold tomb.

    btw, some do not deserve a second chance.
    each crime is different, every criminal is different.
    simple shit.

    but they all have something in common... evil bullshit that needs to stop.

    fine, if you want them to live i suggest you folks get off your asses and feed them in their bullshit cells.
    it'll be fun for you to coddle demons.

    good luck.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    this is so simple yet so fucked.
    we all have a strong opinion.

    you folks believe maniacs should live no matter how many chances they get.
    i believe after so many chances they should be sent away in a thin cedar box and placed in a shallow cold tomb.

    btw, some do not deserve a second chance.
    each crime is different, every criminal is different.
    simple shit.

    but they all have something in common... evil bullshit that needs to stop.

    fine, if you want them to live i suggest you folks get off your asses and feed them in their bullshit cells.
    it'll be fun for you to coddle demons.

    good luck.

    Hmm... also the need to believe that you have exclusive, superior knowledge and experience and we are all just sheltered, ignorant, and naive... interesting. ;)
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    So if I believe you're evil then it's reasonable for me to kill you? Want to go back to the state of nature, do ya?
    again, you are out of your mind.

    what crimes against humanity have i commited?
    i smoke marijuana.
    it is illegal.
    that is my crime.
    i suggest you put a bullet behind my right ear because i smoke pot.

    :mrgreen::lol:

    here i am right here
    > :twisted: mr. dopey, look at me go :mrgreen:
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    I believe you don't care how I view you. And I believe you believe you're the good guy. But there is no good guy. There is no evil guy. Life's just not black or white like that. But I find your need to believe that it is and to create such absolute distance between you and "them" to be interesting. Or maybe you're just fucking with us.
    please believe the following statement.

    i am not fucking with any of you at all.
    i am so serious your heads are spinning like tops.

    Hmm... the need to believe you're causing our heads to spin like tops... sounds like someone who would be fucking with us to me. ;)
    again, please believe me.
    i am so serious it is outrageous.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    this is so simple yet so fucked.
    we all have a strong opinion.

    you folks believe maniacs should live no matter how many chances they get.
    i believe after so many chances they should be sent away in a thin cedar box and placed in a shallow cold tomb.

    btw, some do not deserve a second chance.
    each crime is different, every criminal is different.
    simple shit.

    but they all have something in common... evil bullshit that needs to stop.

    fine, if you want them to live i suggest you folks get off your asses and feed them in their bullshit cells.
    it'll be fun for you to coddle demons.

    good luck.

    Hmm... also the need to believe that you have exclusive, superior knowledge and experience and we are all just sheltered, ignorant, and naive... interesting. ;)

    i do have 30 some years of experience.
    dad was a prison guard for 30 odd years up until the day he died.
    my entire life up until then was hearing prison stories about the evils of mankind.
    what is your experience in this field?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    So if I believe you're evil then it's reasonable for me to kill you? Want to go back to the state of nature, do ya?
    again, you are out of your mind.

    what crimes against humanity have i commited?
    i smoke marijuana.
    it is illegal.
    that is my crime.
    i suggest you put a bullet behind my right ear because i smoke pot.

    :mrgreen::lol:

    here i am right here
    > :twisted: mr. dopey, look at me go :mrgreen:

    It doesn't matter what crimes you have committed or not committed; it only matters whether someone thinks you're evil, right? I mean you think you should be able to put people to death without regard for the law even if I & others don't think they're evil. So why shouldn't I be able to put someone to death without regard for the law even if you and others don't agree?
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    So if I believe you're evil then it's reasonable for me to kill you? Want to go back to the state of nature, do ya?
    again, you are out of your mind.

    what crimes against humanity have i commited?
    i smoke marijuana.
    it is illegal.
    that is my crime.
    i suggest you put a bullet behind my right ear because i smoke pot.

    :mrgreen::lol:

    here i am right here
    > :twisted: mr. dopey, look at me go :mrgreen:

    It doesn't matter what crimes you have committed or not committed; it only matters whether someone thinks you're evil, right? I mean you think you should be able to put people to death without regard for the law even if I & others don't think they're evil. So why shouldn't I be able to put someone to death without regard for the law even if you and others don't agree?

    you are one of the most unbelievable people i have ever traded messages with in my entire life.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    chadwick wrote:
    scb wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    this is so simple yet so fucked.
    we all have a strong opinion.

    you folks believe maniacs should live no matter how many chances they get.
    i believe after so many chances they should be sent away in a thin cedar box and placed in a shallow cold tomb.

    btw, some do not deserve a second chance.
    each crime is different, every criminal is different.
    simple shit.

    but they all have something in common... evil bullshit that needs to stop.

    fine, if you want them to live i suggest you folks get off your asses and feed them in their bullshit cells.
    it'll be fun for you to coddle demons.

    good luck.

    Hmm... also the need to believe that you have exclusive, superior knowledge and experience and we are all just sheltered, ignorant, and naive... interesting. ;)

    i do have 30 some years of experience.
    dad was a prison guard for 30 odd years up until the day he died.
    my entire life up until then was hearing prison stories about the evils of mankind.
    what is your experience in this field?

    My dad was a field investigator for the Office of the Medical Investigator and I went with him to murder scenes and helped with autopsies of people who had been brutally murdered, still fresh. And my ex-boyfriend and several of my friends were brutally murdered (the boyfriend more brutally than the friends). And when my dad received his body they were only able to identify it with my help. So there's that.
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