Ticket prices. This is not for you (the fans).

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  • Eddieredder
    Eddieredder Posts: 753
    patkelly12 said:
    Eddieredder said:
    patkelly12 said:
    SHZA said:
    patkelly12 said:
    PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
    Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop. 

    If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
    Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? Its all accounted for either way. 

    I guess that's' my point. All the standard tickets are gone. Its not like they can come back and say "Hey, we never got that premium subsidy. We need you to cough up some more on those tickets we sold you earlier." - I guess the only solution if that subsidy isn't recouped is to charge even more on the next tour (for standard tickets).

    Assuming the above is all on the up and up.
    But it could be as simple as. "we didn't get the premium minimum, so you don't get your full fee". I don't see TM, the venue, or the promoter having to take less. But who knows. 
  • EH14457
    EH14457 Orlando, FL Posts: 412
    edited February 2024
    The problem with trying to buy tickets these days is that the entire sales platform is built to maximize profit, at the expense of the consumer. TM has been slowly refining how they milk consumers for years, and it's totally reasonable that the artists themselves would feel like they deserve their fair share of the *additional* revenue being generated by the price manipulating shenanigans. I'm not saying Pearl Jam (or PJ management) is 100% blameless in all of this; they're not. But they're also not 100% at fault. I assume they've just decided, with 30+ years under their belts, that maybe they don't want to fight the system anymore to the degree that they have in the past. That's their prerogative; and it's anybody else's prerogative to cancel their 10c membership, skip the shows, etc... I hate this is what buying concert tickets has become, but sadly it has. 

    That said, here are my suggestions for "fixing" things, some of which are most likely not realistic, but I like the thought exercise:

    1. The public allotment of tickets for each show should be available upfront at static prices.

    There will still inevitably be production hold tickets which become available very close to the show... band holds, VIPs, additional seats based on the actual production setup. And there will still be tickets available at premium prices from the first moment the show goes on sale. But artificially constraining supply upfront (by not making certain seats available) so that you can lure anxious fans into buying the only *available* tickets at premium prices is absolute garbage. At least with Seattle, I watched some ticket prices go from $175-185 to hundreds more, and I watched new rows of Pearl Jam Premium magically appear at the same price as better Pearl Jam Premium that just sold. You can't argue that dynamic and/or premium pricing help ensure that the artists get fair market value and at the same time artificially constrain supply to facilitate higher-priced purchases. That's literally having your cake and eating it too.

    The downside to this framework is that, by necessity, many of the best tickets would need to be priced much higher right out of the gate. And that sucks, but it does seem like the only viable alternative to the current system which would ensure that the artists are still capitalizing (fairly) on the value of their art... which bring us to #s 2 and 3.

    2. More pricing tiers

    Die-hards will hate this, but GAs, first 5 rows of the floor, and the best lowers should 100% be more than a $10 premium over the worst seat in the house. Bump GAs up to $250, best lowers and floors to $220, make add'l lowers and floors maybe $175, best uppers $150-ish, and then let some fans/families who don't want to drop a whole paycheck on a concert sit in the nosebleeds or behind the stage for $100 or less.

    3. Make 10c the only place to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing

    This is also going to be controversial, but it's clear Pearl Jam is onboard with the premium pricing game... so in the spirit of #1, and to stop all the whining about 10c's value these days... hold ~20% of GA, best lowers, and best floors out of the 10c lottery, and only make those available in the public sales at ridiculous prices. Is this going to price people out? Absolutely. But what are you going to do? Demand for these seats drastically outweighs supply, and that's not going to change any time soon. So enter the 10C Lottery. If you win, you get to buy a ticket at 10c-only pricing. If you don't win, and you want one of those seats, your options are F2F from another 10C member or pay the premium price. Side note: 10c accounts are linked to TM for sake of the lottery, right? So couldn't they also ensure that only 10c members can buy F2F tickets from other 10c members? That would reduce the competition for those F2F tickets at the lower prices and also increase the value of a 10c membership.

    4.  Bring back show prioritization

    Especially if prices are going up across the board and 10c represents a unique opportunity to get the best tickets at non-premium pricing, you simply can't have a situation where some people go 5/5 or better with one of those shows representing someone else's 0/1. As the value of winning the lottery increases, you need to ensure a more equitable distribution of wins.

    ---

    These changes obviously wouldn't result in a perfect system; they're just my best stab at a framework that would provide transparency, benefit 10c members, and still allow for a decent amount of "premium" revenue to be captured by the band. At the end of the day, I think most people could get on board, even if reluctantly, with any transparent system. The biggest issue with the current sales is that they're the opposite of transparent. No explanation of how the lottery drawing is run, no visibility (non-personally-identifiable) into the distribution of tickets by membership number across shows, no clarity on the regular vs premium pricing distribution or the criteria by which prices may change dynamically. I could go on and on. Admittedly 10c doesn't owe anybody anything wrt the above; they just shouldn't be shocked when people assume the worst in the absence of information.
    Post edited by EH14457 on

    10/7/96 (FL), 9/22/98 (FL), 9/23/98 (FL), 8/9/00 (FL), 8/10/00 (FL), 8/12/00 (FL), 4/11/03 (FL), 4/12/03 (FL), 4/13/03 (FL), 7/8/03 (NY), 7/9/03 (NY), 7/12/03 (PA), 7/14/03 (NJ), 10/8/04 (FL), 8/5/07 (IL), 11/27/12 (FL), 12/6/13 (WA), 4/8/16 (FL), 4/9/16 (FL), 4/11/16 (FL), 8/5/16 (MA), 8/22/16 (IL), 8/8/18 (WA), 8/10/18 (WA), 9/25/21 (CA), 9/26/21 (CA), 5/3/22 (CA), 5/12/22 (CA), 5/13/22 (CA), 9/18/23 (TX), 9/19/23 (TX), 10/23/23 (WA), 10/24/23 (WA), 5/28/24 (WA), 5/30/24 (WA), 4/24/25 (FL), 4/26/25 (FL), 4/29/25 (GA), 5/1/25 (GA)

  • AlaG
    AlaG Brookline, MA Posts: 979
    BudT said:
    100 Pacer said:
    BudT said:
    Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.

    It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
    I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go. 

    Don't tell me how the premium pricing works. 

    I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans.
    I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. 
    Ideal scenario:
    -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter.
    -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. 
    -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
    Got tix for MSG refreshing on here for an hour or so about 4 hours before the show. Ditto in 2016.
  • SHZA
    SHZA St. Louis, MO USA Posts: 4,314
    edited February 2024
    patkelly12 said:
    Eddieredder said:
    patkelly12 said:
    SHZA said:
    patkelly12 said:
    PJ Premium is 10% and and those high prices subsidizes the rest of the tickets. Also we should never buy Premium tickets and they will drop to standard price. So which is it then?
    Someone is obviously buying them. But it's not necessary in most cases and prices will drop. 

    If they aren't ALL bought at the prices needed to subsidize the rest of the tickets (which is what we were told they represented), then how can the math work? It would seem to me that would cause some financial straits.
    Who holds the bag on premium? The band? TM? is there a formula? Its all accounted for either way. 

    I guess that's' my point. All the standard tickets are gone. Its not like they can come back and say "Hey, we never got that premium subsidy. We need you to cough up some more on those tickets we sold you earlier." - I guess the only solution if that subsidy isn't recouped is to charge even more on the next tour (for standard tickets).

    Assuming the above is all on the up and up.
    That's how I see it. By it's nature, the amount that will come from from a dynamic pricing model is somewhat unpredictable. But they probably have some estimate based on the entire tour. If Premium sales far exceed expectations, they aren't going to say "well, the premiums subsidized the regular tickets even more than we expected, here's a partial refund." If there's a shortfall relative to estimates, maybe it's addressed in the contract or adjusted on the next tour. Maybe they release more premiums at a lower price point. But whatever the sales turn out to be has the effect of subsidizing everything else. 
    Post edited by SHZA on
  • BudT
    BudT Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Posts: 60
    AlaG said:
    BudT said:
    100 Pacer said:
    BudT said:
    Tickets that are good and reasonably priced aren't going to start appearing as the show gets closer. If you've gone to any shows the last few tours, in a high demand market you know that. It's not going to happen.

    It's happened. It happened in 2022, even at MSG day of, and it happened in 2023.
    I was in 200 level at MSG last tour. I refreshed TM through the day. There weren't any good tickets sitting there to snatch for a decent price. I've gone to enough shows and scrambled to know there's people more rabid than me going after and hanging onto tickets because they want to go. 

    Don't tell me how the premium pricing works. 

    I don't care how it works. I care that those were potential 10c Tix and usually were in the past. Now the band in collusion with TM scalps those tickets to their fans.
    I'm here to complain because there's nowhere else management will see it. 
    Ideal scenario:
    -put GA out there for any 10c member to enter.
    -P1 & P2 is all seniority based. 
    -They don't try to scalp Tix to their fans that they should've offered in the first place.
    Got tix for MSG refreshing on here for an hour or so about 4 hours before the show. Ditto in 2016.
    That's what I want to be doing day of the show. Refreshing.
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,553
    Man I used to play the StubHub game all the time before I had a kid. Go out near the venue for dinner/drinks and just keep refreshing looking for a deal. If you're unsuccessful just continue the night out. But I had like a 75% hit rate. You still come out ahead if you took your lumps on the other 25%,
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,136
    There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.

    These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?  
  • SHZA
    SHZA St. Louis, MO USA Posts: 4,314
    Get_Right said:
    There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.

    These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?  
    How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham? 
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,136
    edited February 2024
    SHZA said:
    Get_Right said:
    There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.

    These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?  
    How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham? 
    I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
  • LiveAtLeeds
    LiveAtLeeds Posts: 156
    Get_Right said:
    SHZA said:
    Get_Right said:
    There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.

    These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?  
    How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham? 
    I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
    Yeah Berlin and Barcelona are selling terribly too.
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,136
    LiveAtLeeds said:
    Get_Right said:
    SHZA said:
    Get_Right said:
    There is no subsidy. There is a calculated minimum revenue number that is proposed by TM/promoter. This minimum may be based on selling out an arena at the lowest price or it may be the minimum fee the artist will accept to play a show. The price of 10C tickets are part of this calculation. Then there a range of potential revenue to be realized by dynamic/premium pricing. There may be a minimum that TM is obligated to pay the artist for these sales, but I would guess that most of time the revenue falls within the acceptable range since these are precise forecasts calculated by algorithms and accountants.

    These are not casual projections and there are not "some estimates" and it is very unlikely there are any shortfalls. They are technology based calculations managed by top accountants and financial professionals and are likely contractually bound. Make no mistake, the sale of EVERY ticket is micromanaged by automation, technology and maybe even AI to maximize profits. This is big, big business in 2024 and the concert market is only growing each year. Are there more shows or is TM making more money out of the same number of shows?  
    How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham? 
    I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
    Yeah Berlin and Barcelona are selling terribly too.

    Are those stadiums?
  • vedpunk
    vedpunk Posts: 960
    All shows will sell out or be close to sold out as prices adjust by show time. 
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,136
    vedpunk said:
    All shows will sell out or be close to sold out as prices adjust by show time. 

    That is my general feeling as well.
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    vedpunk said:
    All shows will sell out or be close to sold out as prices adjust by show time. 
    Even if they do, which seems unlikely especially for Barcelona, it’ll still leave a sour feeling 
  • YourLightMadeUsStars
    YourLightMadeUsStars Posts: 58
    BudT said:
    Tell me I'm an asshole for paying that much but they gave me no choice.
    So many have this mentality.. if only we could collectively fight our FOMO and need for instant gratification. If no one purchased these outrageous PJ premium tickets then WE would give THEM no choice but to drop the prices (or leave those seats in future 10c/public sales where they belong). I know the value of a dollar is different for everyone but it still surprises me that those willing to spend top dollar do not wait out of principle. Especially the suckers gobbling up the 20 row deep floor tickets for $1000+.. 

    The obvious manipulation of the supply to generate demand is what has me refusing to bite. They’re selling, so do folks buying these premium tickets truly not know they’re being toyed with, or they just don’t care? Ex: shows are being marked “sold out” when many seats are being marked as sold and held back intentionally.. some behind the stages face value tickets haven’t sold yet.. and only so many premium tickets are showing for sale at any one time (after those get purchased then entire rows of new premium suddenly become available). All easy tactics on TM/PJ’s part to create false scarcity to drive prices up, but frustrating and insulting for the customer none-the-less.. even for those that can pay the prices being asked. 

    I’m ISO MSG N1 tickets but will test my luck on F2F before seeing how prices/true availability look in the days before the show. If that ends up being $1,000+ for a pair then I’ll pass.. though I’m pretty confident I’ll find that pair at a reasonable price between now and showtime with a little effort. 

    It’s unfortunate to know that shows will no longer “sell out” and that many prime tickets will be burned without even making it into the hands of a fan, or even a scalper, who would at least unload them for cheap to fans waiting outside the building.

  • ilockyer
    ilockyer Posts: 2,272
    edited February 2024
    Get_Right said:
    SHZA said:
    How are those precise forecasts working out for Tottenham? 
    I think it is too early to tell. Let's see how full it is come showtime. Are there any other shows not selling well? But even if it does not sell well, TM and the band will make out just fine over the entire tour.
    Other shows not selling well? In terms of UK or London stadium gigs, other than Def Leppard/Motley Crue last year, I've not seen one move this slowly in a very long time. Swift, AC/DC, Foos, Green Day sold out, Bruce's first Wembley show has little left, the Saturday has some rear pitch and top deck at the back remaining (probably due to static setlists last year and higher prices - fans aren't committing like they used to in advance). Top price on any of them was £175, Foos and Green Day were around the £100 mark for best). Most you could get in the building for about £70.
    Post edited by ilockyer on
    The secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits
  • SHZA
    SHZA St. Louis, MO USA Posts: 4,314
    Barcelona looks pretty bad. Of the US shows, LA Forum has the most unsold uppers. Making out just fine is not the same as forecasting actual revenue with laser-like precision. In any event, the subsidization point is that the revenue realized by dynamic/premium pricing has the effect of reducing the revenue that needs to be realized from the remaining tickets to reach the minimum revenue number, and in that sense "subsidizes" the standard tickets. 
  • bootleg
    bootleg Posts: 1,209
    I’m not familiar enough with the European economics but they may have missed the pricing mark a little.  Also have seen some mention that there may have been some timing issues as many Europeans have already made other travel plans (with your fancy 1 month Holidays and all).  Most of the US shows are already listed as sold out, so they likely could have charged even more in some of those markets.  For other concerts in the US if tickets don’t sell they usually end up cutting the price as the date gets closer.  Saw Beck tickets cut in half last year the week before the show.   Prob won’t see them come down that much as the PJ demand is still strong but they should come down a little for shows that aren’t selling as well. 
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,136
    SHZA said:
    Barcelona looks pretty bad. Of the US shows, LA Forum has the most unsold uppers. Making out just fine is not the same as forecasting actual revenue with laser-like precision. In any event, the subsidization point is that the revenue realized by dynamic/premium pricing has the effect of reducing the revenue that needs to be realized from the remaining tickets to reach the minimum revenue number, and in that sense "subsidizes" the standard tickets. 

    As I said, it's a range. And I am surprised they went back to Cali after the poor sales last time around. And we can agree to disagree on the subsidy, one has nothing to do with the other, they are separate, one is a finite number while one is not.
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    bootleg said:
    I’m not familiar enough with the European economics but they may have missed the pricing mark a little.  Also have seen some mention that there may have been some timing issues as many Europeans have already made other travel plans (with your fancy 1 month Holidays and all).  Most of the US shows are already listed as sold out, so they likely could have charged even more in some of those markets.  For other concerts in the US if tickets don’t sell they usually end up cutting the price as the date gets closer.  Saw Beck tickets cut in half last year the week before the show.   Prob won’t see them come down that much as the PJ demand is still strong but they should come down a little for shows that aren’t selling as well. 
    6 weeks, we’re fancy like that ;)
    But yeah, the holiday planning is another reason why I think shows may not sell out. With the late announcement and now the high prices, people commit to other plans 

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