Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Degeneratefk said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?
    I don't know, I'm torn on this issue and have been for a long time.
    As much as I respect women's rights, it's human life we are talking about terminating here.
    What about the pill? It's a woman's responsibility to use contraceptives to prevent pregnancy and the man's responsibility to use a condom and it is the woman's responsibility to refrain from sex if her partner has no condom.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • drakeheuer14
    drakeheuer14 Posts: 4,626
    Degeneratefk said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

    The choice should have been made before having sex. 

    Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,447
    drakeheuer14 said:
    Degeneratefk said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

    The choice should have been made before having sex. 

    Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 
    On the converse - is a woman's body a woman's to control? Because if it is, and a fetus happens to reside inside of it, maybe the woman should go skydiving, shoot some heroin, and take up boxing, since a woman's body is not a baby's to control. Unless you feel it is, and that the acceptance of a man's seed forces a woman into a life of subservience to a yet-to-be-born child. 

    When a topic like this has so many conflicting yet valid perspectives - what right does society have to make this decision on behalf of anyone? Let people keep their own damn personal opinions, and let them act on them, recognizing consensus is not feasible.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,911
    edited March 2018
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    benjs said:
    drakeheuer14 said:
    Degeneratefk said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

    The choice should have been made before having sex. 

    Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 
    On the converse - is a woman's body a woman's to control? Because if it is, and a fetus happens to reside inside of it, maybe the woman should go skydiving, shoot some heroin, and take up boxing, since a woman's body is not a baby's to control. Unless you feel it is, and that the acceptance of a man's seed forces a woman into a life of subservience to a yet-to-be-born child. 

    When a topic like this has so many conflicting yet valid perspectives - what right does society have to make this decision on behalf of anyone? Let people keep their own damn personal opinions, and let them act on them, recognizing consensus is not feasible.
    I read a very interesting article this week (and maybe posted it here? can’t remember) based on exactly this point. Essentially, it argued that where there is no consensus in a society that something is even a crime, any laws around it can not be fashioned on a basis of “morals” of one side or another, and instead should only be based on areas of verifiable facts. Pertaining to abortion specifically, one relevant fact is that both medical and surgical abortions are safer for a woman than pregnancy and childbirth; thus, anti abortion laws increase medical risk to women. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    edited March 2018
    Are there actually any contraceptives that are 100% effective?  I don't believe so.  Unless I'm incorrect, I find equating its failure to irresponsibility on the user's part to be unfair and / or uneducated.

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,911
    Yup, birth control fails often enough.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
    Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    edited March 2018
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
    Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
    I believe the pill is 100% reliable.
    Post edited by Thoughts_Arrive on
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
    If there is evidence then yes abort.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
    If there is evidence then yes abort.
    That's pretty unrealistic, given how long court cases usually last, compared to the relatively short amount of time a woman has to obtain an abortion. The average court case would last longer than the entire gestation. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    oftenreading said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
    If there is evidence then yes abort.
    That's pretty unrealistic, given how long court cases usually last, compared to the relatively short amount of time a woman has to obtain an abortion. The average court case would last longer than the entire gestation. 
    I don't know then.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
    Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
    I believe the pill is 100% reliable.
    The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
    Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
    I believe the pill is 100% reliable.
    The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you
    That's not due to the pill itself but due to not taking it properly.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,447
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    jnimhaoileoin said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

    Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable
    Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
    I believe the pill is 100% reliable.
    The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you
    That's not due to the pill itself but due to not taking it properly.
    That's great that you believe that the pill is 100% reliable, but I'm hoping you'll change what you believe when given evidence that you're wrong.

    From the National Health Service in the UK (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/how-effective-contraception/):
    "Perfect use: more than 99% effective. Fewer than 1 in 100 women will get pregnant in a year when using the combined pill correctly."

    More than 99% effective is less than 100%. If you have sex once a week, that would mean a person has sex roughly 100 times in two years - meaning biannually, a pregnancy scare (or, for those who are anti-abortion, a pregnancy).
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,911
    edited March 2018
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
    If there is evidence then yes abort.
    Wow, that isn't true AT ALL. So many rapes go unreported for so many different reasons, and so many more that are reported do not go to trial because the prosecution can't get enough evidence. And so often there is no evidence of rape by the time a woman reports, if she does - just her word against his. So what's hour suggestion? That only rapes where the rapist is prosecuted can warrant an abortion? Do you know how long it takes for the court system to get this done? By the time your requirements are met the baby would be born already.... I really think you need to think this thing through a lot more.

    And no, the pill is not 100% effective.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Malroth
    Malroth broken down chevrolet Posts: 2,563
    What have I missed?
    :giggle:
    I say keep it legal, just don't do it. Please.
    The worst of times..they don't phase me,
    even if I look and act really crazy.
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thoughts_Arrive said:
    Yes if it is as a result of rape.
    No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.
    And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it? :angry:
    Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
    If there is evidence then yes abort.
    Wow, that isn't true AT ALL. So many rapes go unreported for so many different reasons, and so many more that are reported do not go to trial because the prosecution can't get enough evidence. And so often there is no evidence of rape by the time a woman reports, if she does - just her word against his. So what's hour suggestion? That only rapes where the rapist is prosecuted can warrant an abortion? Do you know how long it takes for the court system to get this done? By the time your requirements are met the baby would be born already.... I really think you need to think this thing through a lot more.

    And no, the pill is not 100% effective.
    Again, thank you voice of reason!
  • Thoughts_Arrive
    Thoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    I think it is the woman's responsibility not to get raped. End of story.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014

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