Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

Thoughts_Arrive

Degeneratefk said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

I don't know, I'm torn on this issue and have been for a long time.
As much as I respect women's rights, it's human life we are talking about terminating here.
What about the pill? It's a woman's responsibility to use contraceptives to prevent pregnancy and the man's responsibility to use a condom and it is the woman's responsibility to refrain from sex if her partner has no condom.

drakeheuer14

Degeneratefk said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

The choice should have been made before having sex. 

Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 

benjs

drakeheuer14 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

The choice should have been made before having sex. 

Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 

On the converse - is a woman's body a woman's to control? Because if it is, and a fetus happens to reside inside of it, maybe the woman should go skydiving, shoot some heroin, and take up boxing, since a woman's body is not a baby's to control. Unless you feel it is, and that the acceptance of a man's seed forces a woman into a life of subservience to a yet-to-be-born child. 

When a topic like this has so many conflicting yet valid perspectives - what right does society have to make this decision on behalf of anyone? Let people keep their own damn personal opinions, and let them act on them, recognizing consensus is not feasible.

PJ_Soul

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

oftenreading

benjs said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

The choice should have been made before having sex. 

Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 

On the converse - is a woman's body a woman's to control? Because if it is, and a fetus happens to reside inside of it, maybe the woman should go skydiving, shoot some heroin, and take up boxing, since a woman's body is not a baby's to control. Unless you feel it is, and that the acceptance of a man's seed forces a woman into a life of subservience to a yet-to-be-born child. 

When a topic like this has so many conflicting yet valid perspectives - what right does society have to make this decision on behalf of anyone? Let people keep their own damn personal opinions, and let them act on them, recognizing consensus is not feasible.

I read a very interesting article this week (and maybe posted it here? can’t remember) based on exactly this point. Essentially, it argued that where there is no consensus in a society that something is even a crime, any laws around it can not be fashioned on a basis of “morals” of one side or another, and instead should only be based on areas of verifiable facts. Pertaining to abortion specifically, one relevant fact is that both medical and surgical abortions are safer for a woman than pregnancy and childbirth; thus, anti abortion laws increase medical risk to women. 

hedonist

Are there actually any contraceptives that are 100% effective?  I don't believe so.  Unless I'm incorrect, I find equating its failure to irresponsibility on the user's part to be unfair and / or uneducated.

PJ_Soul

Yup, birth control fails often enough.

jnimhaoileoin

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Thoughts_Arrive

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.

Thoughts_Arrive

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
I believe the pill is 100% reliable.

Thoughts_Arrive

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
If there is evidence then yes abort.

oftenreading

Thoughts_Arrive said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
If there is evidence then yes abort.

That's pretty unrealistic, given how long court cases usually last, compared to the relatively short amount of time a woman has to obtain an abortion. The average court case would last longer than the entire gestation. 

Thoughts_Arrive

oftenreading said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
If there is evidence then yes abort.

That's pretty unrealistic, given how long court cases usually last, compared to the relatively short amount of time a woman has to obtain an abortion. The average court case would last longer than the entire gestation. 

I don't know then.

jnimhaoileoin

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
I believe the pill is 100% reliable.

The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you

Thoughts_Arrive

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
I believe the pill is 100% reliable.

The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you

That's not due to the pill itself but due to not taking it properly.

benjs

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
I believe the pill is 100% reliable.

The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you

That's not due to the pill itself but due to not taking it properly.

That's great that you believe that the pill is 100% reliable, but I'm hoping you'll change what you believe when given evidence that you're wrong.

From the National Health Service in the UK (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/how-effective-contraception/):
"Perfect use: more than 99% effective. Fewer than 1 in 100 women will get pregnant in a year when using the combined pill correctly."

More than 99% effective is less than 100%. If you have sex once a week, that would mean a person has sex roughly 100 times in two years - meaning biannually, a pregnancy scare (or, for those who are anti-abortion, a pregnancy).

PJ_Soul

Thoughts_Arrive said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
If there is evidence then yes abort.

Wow, that isn't true AT ALL. So many rapes go unreported for so many different reasons, and so many more that are reported do not go to trial because the prosecution can't get enough evidence. And so often there is no evidence of rape by the time a woman reports, if she does - just her word against his. So what's hour suggestion? That only rapes where the rapist is prosecuted can warrant an abortion? Do you know how long it takes for the court system to get this done? By the time your requirements are met the baby would be born already.... I really think you need to think this thing through a lot more.

And no, the pill is not 100% effective.

Malroth

What have I missed?

I say keep it legal, just don't do it. Please.

jnimhaoileoin

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

And how do you propose a woman's rape be verified?? You want them to be put on trial maybe, to prove a woman claiming rape was actually raped so she's granted the right to abort a baby??  Or should only the rape victims with hard evidence of their rape be able to do it?

Usually the victim takes the perpetrator to court where it is proven......
If there is evidence then yes abort.

Wow, that isn't true AT ALL. So many rapes go unreported for so many different reasons, and so many more that are reported do not go to trial because the prosecution can't get enough evidence. And so often there is no evidence of rape by the time a woman reports, if she does - just her word against his. So what's hour suggestion? That only rapes where the rapist is prosecuted can warrant an abortion? Do you know how long it takes for the court system to get this done? By the time your requirements are met the baby would be born already.... I really think you need to think this thing through a lot more.

And no, the pill is not 100% effective.

Again, thank you voice of reason!

Thoughts_Arrive

I think it is the woman's responsibility not to get raped. End of story.