Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

Thoughts_Arrive

Just kidding to the above. I thought I'd wind you up seeing you're all ganging up against me again.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Just kidding to the above. I thought I'd wind you up seeing you're all ganging up against me again.

Nobody is ganging up on you. You are arguing against popular opinion.

* Your quip above the quoted post is a joke, but there are people who actually believe such a statement.

Thoughts_Arrive

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Just kidding to the above. I thought I'd wind you up seeing you're all ganging up against me again.

Nobody is ganging up on you. You are arguing against popular opinion.

* Your quip above the quoted post is a joke, but there are people who actually believe such a statement.

Why I said it. To come across as a right wing conservative Christian patriarchal cunt.

oftenreading

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Just kidding to the above. I thought I'd wind you up seeing you're all ganging up against me again.

Nobody is ganging up on you. You are arguing against popular opinion.

* Your quip above the quoted post is a joke, but there are people who actually believe such a statement.

Why I said it. To come across as a right wing conservative Christian patriarchal cunt.

Always a good look  

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Just kidding to the above. I thought I'd wind you up seeing you're all ganging up against me again.

Nobody is ganging up on you. You are arguing against popular opinion.

* Your quip above the quoted post is a joke, but there are people who actually believe such a statement.

Why I said it. To come across as a right wing conservative Christian patriarchal cunt.

lol

You succeeded!

mace1229

benjs said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

What about cases of fatal foetal abnormality or when the mother's life is at risk?

Also, as others have pointed out, no form of birth control is 100% reliable

Yes, I'm okay with that. If the baby is going to end up severely disabled or the mum's life at risk I am for abortion.
I believe the pill is 100% reliable.

The pill is absolutely not 100% reliable, as any woman could tell you

That's not due to the pill itself but due to not taking it properly.

That's great that you believe that the pill is 100% reliable, but I'm hoping you'll change what you believe when given evidence that you're wrong.

From the National Health Service in the UK (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/how-effective-contraception/):
"Perfect use: more than 99% effective. Fewer than 1 in 100 women will get pregnant in a year when using the combined pill correctly."

More than 99% effective is less than 100%. If you have sex once a week, that would mean a person has sex roughly 100 times in two years - meaning biannually, a pregnancy scare (or, for those who are anti-abortion, a pregnancy).

I agree it is less than 100%, but your analogy is not how it works. 99% effective does not mean if you have sex 100 times then you will statistically get a pregnant scare once.  As the article states, and you even quoted, that means less than 1 woman out of 100 get pregnant. So if your basing it on sexual encounters and averaging twice a week like you mentioned, it’s much higher than 99%, if you’re going on how much sex someone has like your analogy does.
not to get all mathy, but...
if 100 women had sex twice a week and only 1 gets pregnant, that’s a 0.01% fail rate per sexual activity. 
ive always heard “more than 99%” and when just a few searches that’s all I could still find. I don’t know if “more than 99%” means something closer to 99.01 or 99.99%. But either way your analogy was way over-exaggerated.     .      .    

jnimhaoileoin

The main problem with the pill seems to be how its efficacy can be affected by other medications. You often hear stories of how people were ill and maybe on antibiotics when they get pregnant unexpectedly. So I'm guessing you can't 100% rely on it if you're taking any other medication (either that or it's literally an issue of people throwing up and not realising they've thrown up the pill too!)

Thoughts_Arrive

jnimhaoileoin said:

The main problem with the pill seems to be how its efficacy can be affected by other medications. You often hear stories of how people were ill and maybe on antibiotics when they get pregnant unexpectedly. So I'm guessing you can't 100% rely on it if you're taking any other medication (either that or it's literally an issue of people throwing up and not realising they've thrown up the pill too!)

Then women should not have sex if they are on other medications or demand their partner use a condom if they really want to have sex whilst on antibiotics.

jnimhaoileoin

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

The main problem with the pill seems to be how its efficacy can be affected by other medications. You often hear stories of how people were ill and maybe on antibiotics when they get pregnant unexpectedly. So I'm guessing you can't 100% rely on it if you're taking any other medication (either that or it's literally an issue of people throwing up and not realising they've thrown up the pill too!)

Then women should not have sex if they are on other medications or demand their partner use a condom if they really want to have sex whilst on antibiotics.

Well firstly, many women are on long-term medications so it's not practical to suggest they just take a vow of celibacy. Secondly, condoms are possibly even less reliable than the pill

brianlux

jnimhaoileoin said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

The main problem with the pill seems to be how its efficacy can be affected by other medications. You often hear stories of how people were ill and maybe on antibiotics when they get pregnant unexpectedly. So I'm guessing you can't 100% rely on it if you're taking any other medication (either that or it's literally an issue of people throwing up and not realising they've thrown up the pill too!)

Then women should not have sex if they are on other medications or demand their partner use a condom if they really want to have sex whilst on antibiotics.

Well firstly, many women are on long-term medications so it's not practical to suggest they just take a vow of celibacy. Secondly, condoms are possibly even less reliable than the pill

This is why we need Planned Parenthood.  So many people think all they do is abortions but, no, they can and do help with so many other issues like, "I'm on meds, what's my best birth control option."  They really do some great work helping folks out.

dignin

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

Kid got a raw deal living with f**king cave people. Absolutely brutal. 

cincybearcat

oftenreading said:

benjs said:

drakeheuer14 said:

Degeneratefk said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

Yes if it is as a result of rape.
No if you were too irresponsible to use contraceptives.

Why? It's still a woman's choice regardless of contraceptive use. You're basically taking away choice because therebwere no condoms?

The choice should have been made before having sex. 

Not just the woman’s body to consider after that. 

On the converse - is a woman's body a woman's to control? Because if it is, and a fetus happens to reside inside of it, maybe the woman should go skydiving, shoot some heroin, and take up boxing, since a woman's body is not a baby's to control. Unless you feel it is, and that the acceptance of a man's seed forces a woman into a life of subservience to a yet-to-be-born child. 

When a topic like this has so many conflicting yet valid perspectives - what right does society have to make this decision on behalf of anyone? Let people keep their own damn personal opinions, and let them act on them, recognizing consensus is not feasible.

I read a very interesting article this week (and maybe posted it here? can’t remember) based on exactly this point. Essentially, it argued that where there is no consensus in a society that something is even a crime, any laws around it can not be fashioned on a basis of “morals” of one side or another, and instead should only be based on areas of verifiable facts. Pertaining to abortion specifically, one relevant fact is that both medical and surgical abortions are safer for a woman than pregnancy and childbirth; thus, anti abortion laws increase medical risk to women. 

But they certainly decrease medical risk to the baby.

mace1229

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

oftenreading

mace1229 said:

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

Except the conclusion stated isn’t wrong, because it’s been replicated many times over many different counties with many different health care systems. 
 

mace1229

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

Except the conclusion stated isn’t wrong, because it’s been replicated many times over many different counties with many different health care systems. 
 

I wouldnt argue that countries with more liberal views often have fewer abortions. But there is more evidence to support it is availability of contraceptives and overal wealth contribute to abortion rates. Compared to U.K., Ireland has much lower abortion rate even when counting illegal abortion estimates and those who travel to get it, it’s still significantly lower. 
Ive seen nothing to directly support if we make abortion illegal, then the number of abortions wil skyrocket. 

oftenreading

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

Except the conclusion stated isn’t wrong, because it’s been replicated many times over many different counties with many different health care systems. 
 

I wouldnt argue that countries with more liberal views often have fewer abortions. But there is more evidence to support it is availability of contraceptives and overal wealth contribute to abortion rates. Compared to U.K., Ireland has much lower abortion rate even when counting illegal abortion estimates and those who travel to get it, it’s still significantly lower. 
Ive seen nothing to directly support if we make abortion illegal, then the number of abortions wil skyrocket. 

The issue is not that they skyrocket. The issue is that they don’t actually decrease. 

jnimhaoileoin

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

Except the conclusion stated isn’t wrong, because it’s been replicated many times over many different counties with many different health care systems. 
 

I wouldnt argue that countries with more liberal views often have fewer abortions. But there is more evidence to support it is availability of contraceptives and overal wealth contribute to abortion rates. Compared to U.K., Ireland has much lower abortion rate even when counting illegal abortion estimates and those who travel to get it, it’s still significantly lower. 
Ive seen nothing to directly support if we make abortion illegal, then the number of abortions wil skyrocket. 

How could you possibly have statistics for Ireland? Abortion is illegal here and no reliable records are kept of the women who are forced to travel abroad

mace1229

jnimhaoileoin said:

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

dignin said:

Any of you pro-lifers care to comment on the evidence that if you make abortions illegal more women die and if you make abortions legal abortion rates go down? 

I guess one could argue that pro-lifers actually have more blood on their hands.

Paraguayan rape victim, 14, dies giving birth

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/22/paraguayan-rape-victim-14-dies-giving-birth

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/mar/21/abortion-rates-drop-dramatically-rich-countries-terminations-study

That is an incredibly weak argument for the more abortion restrictions there are the more abortions there will be. To jump to the conclusion that pro-lifers have more blood on there hands would be ridiculous, based on those articles anyway.
the stats only state countries (many of them developing) with strict abortion laws have more abortions.
completely ignores the general health of the country and availability of of contraceptives among many other factors that are far more likely to contribute. The come to the conclusion more = more abortions would be flat out wrong.

Except the conclusion stated isn’t wrong, because it’s been replicated many times over many different counties with many different health care systems. 
 

I wouldnt argue that countries with more liberal views often have fewer abortions. But there is more evidence to support it is availability of contraceptives and overal wealth contribute to abortion rates. Compared to U.K., Ireland has much lower abortion rate even when counting illegal abortion estimates and those who travel to get it, it’s still significantly lower. 
Ive seen nothing to directly support if we make abortion illegal, then the number of abortions wil skyrocket. 

How could you possibly have statistics for Ireland? Abortion is illegal here and no reliable records are kept of the women who are forced to travel abroad

This is in response to the last couple posts.
If that is true, then you’d agree there is no evidence to support strict laws would increase abortion, right? Most of countries is strict regulations are South American that don’t have an economy to match ours, Ireland’s is really the only country to base such statements from.
second, there is data about Ireland’s abortion rates. Data on how many women travel to get it and estimates how many do it illegally.  Maybe you can argue how accurate they are, but there’s plenty of stats on Ireland. Very easy to find.

PJ_Soul

Thoughts_Arrive said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

The main problem with the pill seems to be how its efficacy can be affected by other medications. You often hear stories of how people were ill and maybe on antibiotics when they get pregnant unexpectedly. So I'm guessing you can't 100% rely on it if you're taking any other medication (either that or it's literally an issue of people throwing up and not realising they've thrown up the pill too!)

Then women should not have sex if they are on other medications or demand their partner use a condom if they really want to have sex whilst on antibiotics.

How about men stop having sex if they don't like abortion? Really man, you don't like abortion but you want women to do everything about that.... If you don't like it, then never have sex with anyone, and you don't have to worry about your own baby being aborted. After that, it really isn't any of your business what other women choose to do with their bodies, or what medication they take, or whether or not they have sex.