9 Dead in Shooting at Black Church in SC

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Comments

  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    There is one thing the south has that the north doesn't. Yes sir and no sir. Everybody says it down here. This scum bag when answering the judges questions was answering him with yes sirs and no sirs. You don't hear that in the north.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    edited June 2015
    PJ_Soul said:

    fife said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

    So powerful.

    just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
    Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.


    Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
    Thank you.
    This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
    Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    edited June 2015
    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    fife said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

    So powerful.

    just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
    Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.


    Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
    This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
    What can I say? I just don't. I fully understand why people do, and do understand that this is a crutch that some people need.... I just think of it in a different way (the term delusional fits in there somewhere). I know it's not a very generous sentiment on my part. But I still think it. Can't help it. Not that I would say it to a person's face if they expressed the sentiment, and not that someone saying it makes me feel any less sympathetic to what they're going through. Not at all. And having no room for hating is a good thing, absolutely. The whole forgiveness thing is, in my mind, on a different level.

    Anyhoo, this isn't the right thread for expanding this debate, probably. ;)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,386
    PJ_Soul said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    fife said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

    So powerful.

    just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
    Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.


    Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
    This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
    What can I say? I just don't. I fully understand why people do, and do understand that this is a crutch that some people need.... I just think of it in a different way (the term delusional fits in there somewhere). I know it's not a very generous sentiment on my part. But I still think it. Can't help it. Not that I would say it to a person's face if they expressed the sentiment, and not that someone saying it makes me feel any less sympathetic to what they're going through. Not at all. And having no room for hating is a good thing, absolutely. The whole forgiveness thing is, in my mind, on a different level.

    Anyhoo, this isn't the right thread for expanding this debate, probably. ;)
    for whatever its worth, forgiveness has never truely been about the benefit of the one being forgiven but about the benefit of the one doing the forgiving.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    I'm not sure how I didn't hear this before, but the woman that faked being dead was the mother of the 26 year old. She watched her son die and laid in his blood as she pretended to be dead. I can't imagine that horror. This turns me from sadness to shear anger and rage. It's unbelievable.
  • what dreams
    what dreams Posts: 1,761
    PJ_Soul said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    fife said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

    So powerful.

    just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
    Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.


    Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
    This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
    What can I say? I just don't. I fully understand why people do, and do understand that this is a crutch that some people need.... I just think of it in a different way (the term delusional fits in there somewhere). I know it's not a very generous sentiment on my part. But I still think it. Can't help it. Not that I would say it to a person's face if they expressed the sentiment, and not that someone saying it makes me feel any less sympathetic to what they're going through. Not at all. And having no room for hating is a good thing, absolutely. The whole forgiveness thing is, in my mind, on a different level.

    Anyhoo, this isn't the right thread for expanding this debate, probably. ;)
    Without forgiveness, there is absolutely no hope for humanity. I'm so grateful that people like this woman exist. All the rest of us screaming for vengeance -- from the death penalty to "I hope he has Vaseline in jail" -- we are the ones I worry about.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    edited June 2015
    I can only speak for myself, but I am not a vengeful person. All I care about is that everyone is safe and that the beliefs and problems behind crimes like this are kept from spreading and growing in young minds. Not forgiving doesn't necessarily = vengeance. But it is too bad so many people think it does, I absolutely agree with you there.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,071
    thanks for posting the pics and thanks for the updates last-12. i've been thinking about you guys all day. i am glad that your community is coming together. a divided community could make this even worse. i don't know if you had said before, but just curious, how old are your kids? I am just wondering if they are old enough to grasp what happened and if they are able to process it all. if they are smaller i am sure they will have questions later on. i know they will learn from a good dad.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,071
    i read that the governor wants to seek the death penalty. i also read that she would be interested in discussing removing the confederate flag. unfortunately i don't think that flag is going anywhere.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,071
    Take Down the Confederate Flag—Now
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/take-down-the-confederate-flag-now/396290/

    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    i read that the governor wants to seek the death penalty. i also read that she would be interested in discussing removing the confederate flag. unfortunately i don't think that flag is going anywhere.

    I hope the citizens of S.C. will rally to demand that it be taken down.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • what dreams
    what dreams Posts: 1,761
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    i read that the governor wants to seek the death penalty. i also read that she would be interested in discussing removing the confederate flag. unfortunately i don't think that flag is going anywhere.

    I think it will someday. I'm not sure about right this moment, but someday. The last time it was a prominent political issue -- about 15 years ago -- the public was evenly divided, hence the "compromise" to take it off the capitol dome. My time in Charleston occurred when that was going on and I remember well all the hollering. There will be hollering again, but I think a lot has changed in 15 years.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,071
    The Confederate Flag Is a Racist Symbol of a Failed Rebellion. It's Not a Debate.

    There are white Southerners who venerate their Confederate ancestors as heroes, even patriots. One of mine was a deserter. I wish he hadn't fought at all.

    My great-great grandfather was conscripted into the Confederate Navy and assigned to a ship guarding Mobile Bay, in Alabama. In August 1864, after Union vessels sank his ship in a battle that would close the Confederacy's last port, he swam to shore and walked home -- a distance of about 400 miles, according to research my father did a few years ago.

    I don't know much else about him, other than that he owned a small farm and that he did not own any slaves. That he was drafted into the military may suggest he was not eager to fight for the South, but I don't know whether he believed in the cause -- only that when he saw his opportunity, he abandoned it.

    The Confederacy was the most vile and harmful political invention in United States history. It was founded on the explicit principle that slavery is the "natural and normal condition" of black people, and that they should be ruthlessly exploited to the benefit of their white masters. More Americans died in the bloodletting that followed than in World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam combined.

    Where in that story arc is anything worth celebrating? Yet 150 years after the Civil War ended in utter defeat for the Confederacy, a flag of that failed pseudo-nation still flies on public property. And once again, following the killing of nine black parishioners by an apparent white supremacist inside a church in Charleston, South Carolina, we are talking about whether it should.

    This isn't at all a difficult question. There is no place for the flag of a rebellious breakaway region on public property anywhere in the United States.

    It certainly does not belong above a memorial steps from the South Carolina statehouse, where apparently it cannot ever be lowered -- under force of law.

    White Southerners who support the display of the flag claim it is a symbol of their "heritage," when what they really mean is it reminds them of an imagined past where white people held all the power and minorities were kept properly in their place. They say it honors their ancestors, though most likely know less about theirs than I do about mine.

    These are the things they say when they are trying to be polite. On Friday, the website of the Alabama Media Group created an ill-conceived forum for readers to "debate" the Confederate flag issue. Not surprisingly, the nasty side of the Internet showed up in force, with the poor employee assigned to moderate the comment section required to put in a CrossFit-level workout just to keep up.

    Pulling down a few Confederate flags isn't going to help families of the victims of the Charleston shootings, nor will it erase the legacy of racism and hate that sadly persists to this day. But at least there will be fewer visible reminders of it.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-hallman/confederate-flag-racist-symbol_b_7624566.html
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    I recall a VERY lively thread about this confederate flag thing, from a couple of years ago (Pandora, may she RIP, used to fly one on her house, hence the lively debate, lol). Could be interesting to pull that one out again, though I have no recollection of what the thread was called....
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.

    Anyway, to answer your question hugh, my 2 daughters are 14 and 10. And my son is 5. Obviously he just liked the fire engines at the Wentworth street fire department. Surprisingly, my 14 year old didn't want to be there and really just had the "it's hot, can we go attitude?" I told her to her not to talk to me until we got home! I really thought she would get the most out of it. My 10 year old seemed to grasp what she was looking at. She didn't show emotion, but was asking some questions.
  • what dreams
    what dreams Posts: 1,761
    PJ_Soul said:

    I can only speak for myself, but I am not a vengeful person. All I care about is that everyone is safe and that the beliefs and problems behind crimes like this are kept from spreading and growing in young minds. Not forgiving doesn't necessarily = vengeance. But it is too bad so many people think it does, I absolutely agree with you there.

    I totally understand your reluctance. It took me a long time to understand forgiveness when I was going through a very difficult and personal trial myself. It didn't come easy. But once I understood that it was absolutely essential to my emotional and spiritual well-being, everything changed. Just as a lack of forgiveness doesn't = vengeance, neither does forgiveness = condoning the crime.

    For many spiritual people, forgiveness means recognizing the humanity of the perpetrator and accepting humanity's imperfection. When I was going through my ordeal and now every time something like this happens, that's what I struggle with the most: Another human being did this. An animal, yes, maybe or maybe not an insane animal -- but a HUMAN animal. At some very deep, core level, all of us are capable of doing what this scum bag did, yet we don't. What separates the Dylann Roof's from the rest of us? How did Dylann Roof grow from the innocent being in his mother's womb into the violent, racist, hate-filled HUMAN being that he is? The question overwhelms me.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    what dreams said:



    PJ_Soul said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    fife said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

    So powerful.

    just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
    Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.


    Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
    This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
    What can I say? I just don't. I fully understand why people do, and do understand that this is a crutch that some people need.... I just think of it in a different way (the term delusional fits in there somewhere). I know it's not a very generous sentiment on my part. But I still think it. Can't help it. Not that I would say it to a person's face if they expressed the sentiment, and not that someone saying it makes me feel any less sympathetic to what they're going through. Not at all. And having no room for hating is a good thing, absolutely. The whole forgiveness thing is, in my mind, on a different level.

    Anyhoo, this isn't the right thread for expanding this debate, probably. ;)
    Without forgiveness, there is absolutely no hope for humanity. I'm so grateful that people like this woman exist. All the rest of us screaming for vengeance -- from the death penalty to "I hope he has Vaseline in jail" -- we are the ones I worry about.
    Have we resigned ourselves to mass murder being inevitable? Is it actually an expectation that people forgive ruthless maniacs like this?

    Sorry, but some things are simply inexcusable.

    If one failed to negotiate a turn and caused a head on collision where someone was killed... we can forgive them for such an 'accident'. When someone plots a mass murder, sits in a church that has accepted him into their fold, and then lustfully opens fire killing nine innocent people he doesn't even know... he can rot in Hell.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    rgambs said:

    Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?

    It's interesting that everything that is wrong with that flag beams brightly now- the distasteful ideology behind it exposed.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    what dreams said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I can only speak for myself, but I am not a vengeful person. All I care about is that everyone is safe and that the beliefs and problems behind crimes like this are kept from spreading and growing in young minds. Not forgiving doesn't necessarily = vengeance. But it is too bad so many people think it does, I absolutely agree with you there.

    I totally understand your reluctance. It took me a long time to understand forgiveness when I was going through a very difficult and personal trial myself. It didn't come easy. But once I understood that it was absolutely essential to my emotional and spiritual well-being, everything changed. Just as a lack of forgiveness doesn't = vengeance, neither does forgiveness = condoning the crime.

    For many spiritual people, forgiveness means recognizing the humanity of the perpetrator and accepting humanity's imperfection. When I was going through my ordeal and now every time something like this happens, that's what I struggle with the most: Another human being did this. An animal, yes, maybe or maybe not an insane animal -- but a HUMAN animal. At some very deep, core level, all of us are capable of doing what this scum bag did, yet we don't. What separates the Dylann Roof's from the rest of us? How did Dylann Roof grow from the innocent being in his mother's womb into the violent, racist, hate-filled HUMAN being that he is? The question overwhelms me.
    I don't think I'm reluctant. I'm very secure in my beliefs here (i just don't want to offend anyone with them). I already acknowledge the humanity of criminals and certainly already accept humanity's imperfection, to say the least, lol. I simply do not feel that forgiveness and these things you're talking about go hand in hand. It's just a matter of overall differences in philosophy and perception, i suppose.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata

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