9 Dead in Shooting at Black Church in SC

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I've been drinking Shipwreck IPA. Craft beer from Vancouver Island.

Mmmmmm. Beer.

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

jeffbr

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Go Beavers

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

From Russian River Brewing in California.

CM189191

jeffbr

CM189191 said:

Never heard of Surly Brewing, but if I lived in MN I'd definitely check it out.

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

jeffbr

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

Sounds fun! I love beer festivals. I believe Russian River primarily distributes up and down the west coast, but not sure about nationally. If they do have it, definitely give it a try. Have fun!

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

Sounds fun! I love beer festivals. I believe Russian River primarily distributes up and down the west coast, but not sure about nationally. If they do have it, definitely give it a try. Have fun!

They have a philly distributor so you never know.
Jeff, one of my favorite beers ever is a local one for you: red hook esb

Go Beavers

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

Sounds fun! I love beer festivals. I believe Russian River primarily distributes up and down the west coast, but not sure about nationally. If they do have it, definitely give it a try. Have fun!

If I remember right, someone in the PJ brew crew facebook group said a bar in PA had it on tap. Not much detail there, but it sounds like it's not impossible. I know people send bottles of it in the mail if you have a hook up.

mcgruff10

Go Beavers said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

Sounds fun! I love beer festivals. I believe Russian River primarily distributes up and down the west coast, but not sure about nationally. If they do have it, definitely give it a try. Have fun!

If I remember right, someone in the PJ brew crew facebook group said a bar in PA had it on tap. Not much detail there, but it sounds like it's not impossible. I know people send bottles of it in the mail if you have a hook up.

Yeah they distribute all through philly.

jeffbr

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

So hold the bar high for petty crimes but not so much for mass murder?

I actually think the opposite. Dope and petty thievery are crimes we can live with and shouldn't have sentences damning to the offender.

I don't think that sentences for petty crimes should be damning to the offender if the punishment fits the crime. Petty crime = petty sentence.
It's just that heinous murder changes things. A lot. Making the punishment fit the crime in cases of the most extreme and horrendous crimes puts an undue burden on the punisher (i.e. society). Most people are not evil, so I don't think it's right or moral in any way to expect them to commit evil. And that is what that is. If you're punishing an evil act with an evil punishment... well, on a pragmatic level, that just makes everyone evil.

I see where you're going with that, but you' haven't spoke on behalf of the victims- you've spoken to the component of society removed from the crime.

Society has a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims. Not all necessary tasks are pleasant.

Well I don't think that basing sentences administered by the justice system on the individual emotions of victims is practical at all. Remember that many victim families don't support the DP either, and that the DP process sometimes even causes them harm and additional trauma. But even if the family did want the DP... I don't think it's practical to consider it. I mean, what? Kill the person if the victim family is into that, and don't if the victim family isn't? The criminal justice system can't properly function like that.

Firstly... most survivors want justice for their loss. I'm pretty sure, if the dead had a voice... they'd want some form of justice that looked a little differently than a cozy cell, hot meals cooked, exercise programs and internet privileges; but yes... there are some that want to even forgive the killer of their child. This isn't saying much from my perspective: there are people that think a lot of things that are not necessarily fantastic.

Secondly... remember that I advocate for the DP with certain criteria. Mass, serial, or involving children are some of the criteria I speak of.

There isn't one Clifford Olson survivor that didn't lament the treatment Olson received- they all wanted him executed and so did the majority of the Canadian public. Sex dolls (which he complained about), best cancer treatment money could buy, isolation, and... best yet... cash for bodies was a little too much.

He needed to go.

You're speaking for all the victims of Clifford Olson without posting a source?
(Interesting your go-to example is Clifford Olson. i was a child in the exact area where he was killing kids. The people he killed lived in my community. My life was directly affected by him, but I never spent a second wasting time on vengeful feelings when it comes to that creep. Society was kept safe from him, that is what the job of the justice system is).

That's not the job of the justice system. The justice system is to deliver justice, otherwise we would be calling to the safeguard system.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, Soul. Regardless, thanks for testing my belief system and challenging me on my views. I'm in the same place I was, but it's a useful exercise regardless.

Congrats on scoring U2 tickets.

Thanks - you got Vancouver U2 tix too, right? Floor? Maybe we should meet up and debate face-to-face.

Topics limited to: which beer tastes better... which song is better... etc.!

Pliney the Elder is a really good beer, but overrated because of the power of psychological suggestion that happens as a result of the demand for the beer. The brewery plays on this by tightly controlling the release (say one or two kegs st a time) to a single pub in a certain geographic area. The higher price they put on a keg (about double) also factors into this ("it must be good since I'm paying $8.50 a pint for this").

Discuss.

Good one! I've had Pliney numerous times. I like Pliney. But I don't think Pliney is so amazing that I go out of my way to track it down and pay a premium for it. So I guess I can't argue with you about it being overrated.

Never heard of pliney . Is it a Canadian beer?

It's a Double IPA (8% ABV) from Russian River Brewing in California. It is usually pretty hard to find, and generally gets really positive reviews. Definitely a good beer if you like hoppy IPAs.

Oh wow that sounds awesome. I doubt if I ll be able to find it in New Jersey but I ll be on the look out. I m heading to the Atlantic City beer fest, hopefully they show up.

Sounds fun! I love beer festivals. I believe Russian River primarily distributes up and down the west coast, but not sure about nationally. If they do have it, definitely give it a try. Have fun!

They have a philly distributor so you never know.
Jeff, one of my favorite beers ever is a local one for you: red hook esb

Great! Hopefully you'll be able to find it. Yeah, Redhook ESB was my go-to for years. I've been drinking it for almost 30 years now! They were early in the craft beer game. The Redhook Brewery is about 15 minutes from my house, so I like to pop in there from time to time. It has become a bit touristy since it is in a city that exploded with winery, brewery and distillery tourism, but it is still a fun place to chill and knock back a few pints.