i read that the governor wants to seek the death penalty. i also read that she would be interested in discussing removing the confederate flag. unfortunately i don't think that flag is going anywhere.
I hope the citizens of S.C. will rally to demand that it be taken down.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
i read that the governor wants to seek the death penalty. i also read that she would be interested in discussing removing the confederate flag. unfortunately i don't think that flag is going anywhere.
I think it will someday. I'm not sure about right this moment, but someday. The last time it was a prominent political issue -- about 15 years ago -- the public was evenly divided, hence the "compromise" to take it off the capitol dome. My time in Charleston occurred when that was going on and I remember well all the hollering. There will be hollering again, but I think a lot has changed in 15 years.
The Confederate Flag Is a Racist Symbol of a Failed Rebellion. It's Not a Debate.
There are white Southerners who venerate their Confederate ancestors as heroes, even patriots. One of mine was a deserter. I wish he hadn't fought at all.
My great-great grandfather was conscripted into the Confederate Navy and assigned to a ship guarding Mobile Bay, in Alabama. In August 1864, after Union vessels sank his ship in a battle that would close the Confederacy's last port, he swam to shore and walked home -- a distance of about 400 miles, according to research my father did a few years ago.
I don't know much else about him, other than that he owned a small farm and that he did not own any slaves. That he was drafted into the military may suggest he was not eager to fight for the South, but I don't know whether he believed in the cause -- only that when he saw his opportunity, he abandoned it.
The Confederacy was the most vile and harmful political invention in United States history. It was founded on the explicit principle that slavery is the "natural and normal condition" of black people, and that they should be ruthlessly exploited to the benefit of their white masters. More Americans died in the bloodletting that followed than in World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam combined.
Where in that story arc is anything worth celebrating? Yet 150 years after the Civil War ended in utter defeat for the Confederacy, a flag of that failed pseudo-nation still flies on public property. And once again, following the killing of nine black parishioners by an apparent white supremacist inside a church in Charleston, South Carolina, we are talking about whether it should.
This isn't at all a difficult question. There is no place for the flag of a rebellious breakaway region on public property anywhere in the United States.
It certainly does not belong above a memorial steps from the South Carolina statehouse, where apparently it cannot ever be lowered -- under force of law.
White Southerners who support the display of the flag claim it is a symbol of their "heritage," when what they really mean is it reminds them of an imagined past where white people held all the power and minorities were kept properly in their place. They say it honors their ancestors, though most likely know less about theirs than I do about mine.
These are the things they say when they are trying to be polite. On Friday, the website of the Alabama Media Group created an ill-conceived forum for readers to "debate" the Confederate flag issue. Not surprisingly, the nasty side of the Internet showed up in force, with the poor employee assigned to moderate the comment section required to put in a CrossFit-level workout just to keep up.
Pulling down a few Confederate flags isn't going to help families of the victims of the Charleston shootings, nor will it erase the legacy of racism and hate that sadly persists to this day. But at least there will be fewer visible reminders of it.
I recall a VERY lively thread about this confederate flag thing, from a couple of years ago (Pandora, may she RIP, used to fly one on her house, hence the lively debate, lol). Could be interesting to pull that one out again, though I have no recollection of what the thread was called....
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.
Anyway, to answer your question hugh, my 2 daughters are 14 and 10. And my son is 5. Obviously he just liked the fire engines at the Wentworth street fire department. Surprisingly, my 14 year old didn't want to be there and really just had the "it's hot, can we go attitude?" I told her to her not to talk to me until we got home! I really thought she would get the most out of it. My 10 year old seemed to grasp what she was looking at. She didn't show emotion, but was asking some questions.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not a vengeful person. All I care about is that everyone is safe and that the beliefs and problems behind crimes like this are kept from spreading and growing in young minds. Not forgiving doesn't necessarily = vengeance. But it is too bad so many people think it does, I absolutely agree with you there.
I totally understand your reluctance. It took me a long time to understand forgiveness when I was going through a very difficult and personal trial myself. It didn't come easy. But once I understood that it was absolutely essential to my emotional and spiritual well-being, everything changed. Just as a lack of forgiveness doesn't = vengeance, neither does forgiveness = condoning the crime.
For many spiritual people, forgiveness means recognizing the humanity of the perpetrator and accepting humanity's imperfection. When I was going through my ordeal and now every time something like this happens, that's what I struggle with the most: Another human being did this. An animal, yes, maybe or maybe not an insane animal -- but a HUMAN animal. At some very deep, core level, all of us are capable of doing what this scum bag did, yet we don't. What separates the Dylann Roof's from the rest of us? How did Dylann Roof grow from the innocent being in his mother's womb into the violent, racist, hate-filled HUMAN being that he is? The question overwhelms me.
A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."
So powerful.
just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me
Same here, and frankly, I don't think I even find this attitude impressive. The only reason I don't go on a bit of a rant when I see comments like this is because I don't want to insult a person who just lost someone and is trying to cope any way she can.
Anyway, I think that's great you took your kids to the church Last-12-Exit. THAT is powerful, IMO.
This woman also said she has no room for hatin'. How can you not be impressed by someone who says this less than 48 hours after losing her son? I'm not religious, I've always thought people use religion as a crutch. Well in this case, if this is what gets them through this, it's not really that bad.
What can I say? I just don't. I fully understand why people do, and do understand that this is a crutch that some people need.... I just think of it in a different way (the term delusional fits in there somewhere). I know it's not a very generous sentiment on my part. But I still think it. Can't help it. Not that I would say it to a person's face if they expressed the sentiment, and not that someone saying it makes me feel any less sympathetic to what they're going through. Not at all. And having no room for hating is a good thing, absolutely. The whole forgiveness thing is, in my mind, on a different level.
Anyhoo, this isn't the right thread for expanding this debate, probably.
Without forgiveness, there is absolutely no hope for humanity. I'm so grateful that people like this woman exist. All the rest of us screaming for vengeance -- from the death penalty to "I hope he has Vaseline in jail" -- we are the ones I worry about.
Have we resigned ourselves to mass murder being inevitable? Is it actually an expectation that people forgive ruthless maniacs like this?
Sorry, but some things are simply inexcusable.
If one failed to negotiate a turn and caused a head on collision where someone was killed... we can forgive them for such an 'accident'. When someone plots a mass murder, sits in a church that has accepted him into their fold, and then lustfully opens fire killing nine innocent people he doesn't even know... he can rot in Hell.
Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?
Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?
It's interesting that everything that is wrong with that flag beams brightly now- the distasteful ideology behind it exposed.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not a vengeful person. All I care about is that everyone is safe and that the beliefs and problems behind crimes like this are kept from spreading and growing in young minds. Not forgiving doesn't necessarily = vengeance. But it is too bad so many people think it does, I absolutely agree with you there.
I totally understand your reluctance. It took me a long time to understand forgiveness when I was going through a very difficult and personal trial myself. It didn't come easy. But once I understood that it was absolutely essential to my emotional and spiritual well-being, everything changed. Just as a lack of forgiveness doesn't = vengeance, neither does forgiveness = condoning the crime.
For many spiritual people, forgiveness means recognizing the humanity of the perpetrator and accepting humanity's imperfection. When I was going through my ordeal and now every time something like this happens, that's what I struggle with the most: Another human being did this. An animal, yes, maybe or maybe not an insane animal -- but a HUMAN animal. At some very deep, core level, all of us are capable of doing what this scum bag did, yet we don't. What separates the Dylann Roof's from the rest of us? How did Dylann Roof grow from the innocent being in his mother's womb into the violent, racist, hate-filled HUMAN being that he is? The question overwhelms me.
I don't think I'm reluctant. I'm very secure in my beliefs here (i just don't want to offend anyone with them). I already acknowledge the humanity of criminals and certainly already accept humanity's imperfection, to say the least, lol. I simply do not feel that forgiveness and these things you're talking about go hand in hand. It's just a matter of overall differences in philosophy and perception, i suppose.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.
Your comment reminds me something I never understood about South Carolina politics. The GOP is entrenched for sure, but there are SOOOOOOO MANY African-Americans in that state who vote for them or they don't vote at all. As you know but others may not, the Charleston House seat is represented by a black Republican, voted for in a special election. I just don't see with the demographics of the state how Democrats can't even get a foothold. I know Charleston has had a (white, Irish) Democratic mayor forever and a day, and there's Clyburn from Columbia, but given what I've read in some local chat groups I belong to, those two standouts are no longer guaranteed wins.
I really don't want to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative thread or argue that the parties are divided by race, but dang, every election season, I feel like I need to get on a bus and register some black voters out in Awendaw or something. But I don't even know it would do any good!
Getting back to the flag, the only reason why I could see it someday coming down is that A LOT of "outsiders" are moving into the state from elsewhere. The people moving in, mostly from the north, might have some influence. And if there is a tourism boycott, forget it, that flag is coming down. South Carolina will die without tourism.
Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?
It's interesting that everything that is wrong with that flag beams brightly now- the distasteful ideology behind it exposed.
I have always hated that stupid flag, and the IGNORANT hillbilly wannabes who display it proudly in Ohio, despite their total lack of connection to the "heritage" excuse. It is a proud rebuttal of doctrines of tolerance at the least, and an outright proclamation of overt racism in most cases.
Thirty Bills, That's the point. The perpetrator will rot in Hell. People who have faith trust that with God. You do not have to understand that, but I have come to see things differently after going through something horrific with a lot of spiritual guidance. Like I said in another post, to the faithful, forgiveness does not = excusing the crime. It's not saying "It's okay dude. No problem that you just killed my grandma."
It's way more complicated than that. Some might call it delusional. I just know that even as I think this guy is the lowest scum on earth, I acknowledge that he is a human being, just like me capable of great "sin." From a word study point of view, forgiveness is about giving. Forgiving people are the most generous people on the planet, and we need more of them.
If Dylann Roof were a forgiving person, we would not sit here today having this conversation.
Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.
Your comment reminds me something I never understood about South Carolina politics. The GOP is entrenched for sure, but there are SOOOOOOO MANY African-Americans in that state who vote for them or they don't vote at all. As you know but others may not, the Charleston House seat is represented by a black Republican, voted for in a special election. I just don't see with the demographics of the state how Democrats can't even get a foothold. I know Charleston has had a (white, Irish) Democratic mayor forever and a day, and there's Clyburn from Columbia, but given what I've read in some local chat groups I belong to, those two standouts are no longer guaranteed wins.
I really don't want to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative thread or argue that the parties are divided by race, but dang, every election season, I feel like I need to get on a bus and register some black voters out in Awendaw or something. But I don't even know it would do any good!
Getting back to the flag, the only reason why I could see it someday coming down is that A LOT of "outsiders" are moving into the state from elsewhere. The people moving in, mostly from the north, might have some influence. And if there is a tourism boycott, forget it, that flag is coming down. South Carolina will die without tourism.
I have lived here since 1999 and still can't begin to understand the politics here. This is a Republican state. The people here are right wingers. Blacks and whites both are anti gay and anti abortion. I have been a registered voter in the same district since I've lived here and I definitely have noticed that way more white people vote than black. Except the last 2 presidential elections. Those are the only 2 times I've ever had to wait to vote.
Every election cycle I feel the same frustration. How do we continue to vote for people like Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley, even Tim Scott? I know the answer. Many of those black people that were voting for Obama in those 2 presidential election didnt vote in any other elections. They didn't vote for their local representative, or their state senator. I really believe many black people voted just to see a black president and they probably will never vote again. Obviously, I've done no polls or have any statistics to back that up. That is strictly my opinion based on what I have seen.
Isn't it an insult to all those who have served the state and this nation that the flag of a failed racist rebellion is treated with equal respect as the one carried by those who fought for our country?
It's interesting that everything that is wrong with that flag beams brightly now- the distasteful ideology behind it exposed.
I have always hated that stupid flag, and the IGNORANT hillbilly wannabes who display it proudly in Ohio, despite their total lack of connection to the "heritage" excuse. It is a proud rebuttal of doctrines of tolerance at the least, and an outright proclamation of overt racism in most cases.
I see it here as well in California in places as well. There are a couple of guys here in town who drive around with these big Confederate flags attached to there vehicles. Racism knows no boundaries. California has a reputation for being liberal (and in many places is so) but we have our enclaves of racist and hate groups of all sorts. This is a problem that needs to be dealt- definitely in the south- but pretty much everywhere as well.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.
Your comment reminds me something I never understood about South Carolina politics. The GOP is entrenched for sure, but there are SOOOOOOO MANY African-Americans in that state who vote for them or they don't vote at all. As you know but others may not, the Charleston House seat is represented by a black Republican, voted for in a special election. I just don't see with the demographics of the state how Democrats can't even get a foothold. I know Charleston has had a (white, Irish) Democratic mayor forever and a day, and there's Clyburn from Columbia, but given what I've read in some local chat groups I belong to, those two standouts are no longer guaranteed wins.
I really don't want to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative thread or argue that the parties are divided by race, but dang, every election season, I feel like I need to get on a bus and register some black voters out in Awendaw or something. But I don't even know it would do any good!
Getting back to the flag, the only reason why I could see it someday coming down is that A LOT of "outsiders" are moving into the state from elsewhere. The people moving in, mostly from the north, might have some influence. And if there is a tourism boycott, forget it, that flag is coming down. South Carolina will die without tourism.
I have lived here since 1999 and still can't begin to understand the politics here. This is a Republican state. The people here are right wingers. Blacks and whites both are anti gay and anti abortion. I have been a registered voter in the same district since I've lived here and I definitely have noticed that way more white people vote than black. Except the last 2 presidential elections. Those are the only 2 times I've ever had to wait to vote.
Every election cycle I feel the same frustration. How do we continue to vote for people like Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley, even Tim Scott? I know the answer. Many of those black people that were voting for Obama in those 2 presidential election didnt vote in any other elections. They didn't vote for their local representative, or their state senator. I really believe many black people voted just to see a black president and they probably will never vote again. Obviously, I've done no polls or have any statistics to back that up. That is strictly my opinion based on what I have seen.
I have friends involved in local politics, and I think I need to start asking then some questions. But I do agree with you . . . I have to believe it's because blacks either don't vote and the ones who do are socially conservative.
It's difficult for me to trust any of my local representatives knowing what I know through the fire department. I don't trust most. I had the opportunity to meet senator Pinckney once, briefly. He was not my senator. What you do notice when he was in a room was it was his room.
I don't even trust Joe Riley. Or any of the local councils -- they are busy selling Charleston to the highest bidder. The destruction of the environment by developers is criminal, turning what is arguably the most naturally beautiful place in America into a parking lot. Different thread. Maybe when I'm down (next week probably, or 4th week) we can hang and discuss that. It would be fun to meet a PJ fan in Charleston!
I don't even trust Joe Riley. Or any of the local councils -- they are busy selling Charleston to the highest bidder. The destruction of the environment by developers is criminal, turning what is arguably the most naturally beautiful place in America into a parking lot. Different thread. Maybe when I'm down (next week probably, or 4th week) we can hang and discuss that. It would be fun to meet a PJ fan in Charleston!
Figures. I am leaving next Friday and meeting my wife's parents in Cincinnati to take the kids to kings island over the weekend. Then we will be heading up to Fort Wayne for the 4th. I won't be back in town until July 7. Will you still be around?
You can hear this already with the gun argument. The guns didn't kill these people. Hell, I've even heard the NRA blaming reverend Pinckney for NOT allowing guns in his church to defend themselves.
I don't even trust Joe Riley. Or any of the local councils -- they are busy selling Charleston to the highest bidder. The destruction of the environment by developers is criminal, turning what is arguably the most naturally beautiful place in America into a parking lot. Different thread. Maybe when I'm down (next week probably, or 4th week) we can hang and discuss that. It would be fun to meet a PJ fan in Charleston!
Figures. I am leaving next Friday and meeting my wife's parents in Cincinnati to take the kids to kings island over the weekend. Then we will be heading up to Fort Wayne for the 4th. I won't be back in town until July 7. Will you still be around?
Could be because I don't have to be back to Virginia until the 9th, and my friends haven't confirmed their availability yet. I just got out of school today and delayed setting up the trip until yesterday. I gave them a three-week window to figure out their schedules with mine. The fact that I've heard back yet indicates it will be a later trip rather than earlier. Once I know, I'll send a PM. Safe travels.
That was moving. One thing I have noticed, all across this country, is people everywhere have felt this. You can see the hurt and the fear in Jon Stewarts face. He is 100% correct. He fucking gets it.
You don't have to be a religious person to understand that if you can't feel safe in church, where the fuck else can you feel safe in this place?
security cameras aren't an indication of being in a safe place. Suggests quite the opposite in fact.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Nikki Haley or any republican in this state will EVER try and get that flag moved. Haley claims it's a non issue. Facebook is riddled with the same old idiotic argument, it's heritage not hate. That flag will be there forever.
Your comment reminds me something I never understood about South Carolina politics. The GOP is entrenched for sure, but there are SOOOOOOO MANY African-Americans in that state who vote for them or they don't vote at all. As you know but others may not, the Charleston House seat is represented by a black Republican, voted for in a special election. I just don't see with the demographics of the state how Democrats can't even get a foothold. I know Charleston has had a (white, Irish) Democratic mayor forever and a day, and there's Clyburn from Columbia, but given what I've read in some local chat groups I belong to, those two standouts are no longer guaranteed wins.
I really don't want to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative thread or argue that the parties are divided by race, but dang, every election season, I feel like I need to get on a bus and register some black voters out in Awendaw or something. But I don't even know it would do any good!
Getting back to the flag, the only reason why I could see it someday coming down is that A LOT of "outsiders" are moving into the state from elsewhere. The people moving in, mostly from the north, might have some influence. And if there is a tourism boycott, forget it, that flag is coming down. South Carolina will die without tourism.
I believe it's more that the African-Americans just don't vote unless there is a specific candidate they want to support (like Obama or Steve Benjamin here in Columbia). I hate to use the word apathy, but that's pretty much what it seems to be and a big reason for the strong GOP presence.
In regards to the tourism boycott, the NAACP has been actively engaged in boycotting SC tourism since 2000 (when they moved the flag from atop the statehouse). Tourism industry doesn't seem to be affected that much though. Charleston, Myrtle Beach, etc still draw lots of people every year. Honestly, the biggest impact of the boycott seems to be with NCAA sporting events. Non-merit based events can't be held in South Carolina. That prevents Columbia or Greenville from hosting men's NCAA Tournament games and has prevented the start of a football bowl game I believe.
In regards to the tourism boycott, the NAACP has been actively engaged in boycotting SC tourism since 2000 (when they moved the flag from atop the statehouse). Tourism industry doesn't seem to be affected that much though. Charleston, Myrtle Beach, etc still draw lots of people every year. Honestly, the biggest impact of the boycott seems to be with NCAA sporting events. Non-merit based events can't be held in South Carolina. That prevents Columbia or Greenville from hosting men's NCAA Tournament games and has prevented the start of a football bowl game I believe.
Which goes to show how ineffective the NAACP is as a political organization. Never knew this. The bulk of tourists are white. Those are the tourists who need to stop visiting. Charleston makes every damn travel magazine list as a top destination (never understood the appeal of Myrtle). It's time for that shit to stop. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future and how this event so soon after the Walter Scott will influence the tourist industry. The days after a tragedy everyone is fired up. I hope people will still be talking about the issues six months from now.
Which goes to show how ineffective the NAACP is as a political organization. Never knew this. The bulk of tourists are white. Those are the tourists who need to stop visiting. Charleston makes every damn travel magazine list as a top destination (never understood the appeal of Myrtle). It's time for that shit to stop. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future and how this event so soon after the Walter Scott will influence the tourist industry. The days after a tragedy everyone is fired up. I hope people will still be talking about the issues six months from now.
Yes, the boycott has largely been ineffective. I really don't think the Walter Scott shooting or this event will bring much to the boycott. Every year or so the local news rags do a story on the flag and the boycott. Every article basically states that everyone has their own opinion, the state is still divided on the issue (although it seems that it's been trending in favor of moving the flag to a museum the last couple of years), the boycott has been ineffective, and that an effective boycott would actually hurt a lot of people the organization claims to be helping.
And to make matters worse, it appears that the Westboro Baptist folks are planning on protesting the funerals of the victims. I really wish we could ban those folks from ever entering oiur state.
And to make matters worse, it appears that the Westboro Baptist folks are planning on protesting the funerals of the victims. I really wish we could ban those folks from ever entering oiur state.
And to make matters worse, it appears that the Westboro Baptist folks are planning on protesting the funerals of the victims. I really wish we could ban those folks from ever entering oiur state.
And to make matters worse, it appears that the Westboro Baptist folks are planning on protesting the funerals of the victims. I really wish we could ban those folks from ever entering oiur state.
Comments
There are white Southerners who venerate their Confederate ancestors as heroes, even patriots. One of mine was a deserter. I wish he hadn't fought at all.
My great-great grandfather was conscripted into the Confederate Navy and assigned to a ship guarding Mobile Bay, in Alabama. In August 1864, after Union vessels sank his ship in a battle that would close the Confederacy's last port, he swam to shore and walked home -- a distance of about 400 miles, according to research my father did a few years ago.
I don't know much else about him, other than that he owned a small farm and that he did not own any slaves. That he was drafted into the military may suggest he was not eager to fight for the South, but I don't know whether he believed in the cause -- only that when he saw his opportunity, he abandoned it.
The Confederacy was the most vile and harmful political invention in United States history. It was founded on the explicit principle that slavery is the "natural and normal condition" of black people, and that they should be ruthlessly exploited to the benefit of their white masters. More Americans died in the bloodletting that followed than in World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam combined.
Where in that story arc is anything worth celebrating? Yet 150 years after the Civil War ended in utter defeat for the Confederacy, a flag of that failed pseudo-nation still flies on public property. And once again, following the killing of nine black parishioners by an apparent white supremacist inside a church in Charleston, South Carolina, we are talking about whether it should.
This isn't at all a difficult question. There is no place for the flag of a rebellious breakaway region on public property anywhere in the United States.
It certainly does not belong above a memorial steps from the South Carolina statehouse, where apparently it cannot ever be lowered -- under force of law.
White Southerners who support the display of the flag claim it is a symbol of their "heritage," when what they really mean is it reminds them of an imagined past where white people held all the power and minorities were kept properly in their place. They say it honors their ancestors, though most likely know less about theirs than I do about mine.
These are the things they say when they are trying to be polite. On Friday, the website of the Alabama Media Group created an ill-conceived forum for readers to "debate" the Confederate flag issue. Not surprisingly, the nasty side of the Internet showed up in force, with the poor employee assigned to moderate the comment section required to put in a CrossFit-level workout just to keep up.
Pulling down a few Confederate flags isn't going to help families of the victims of the Charleston shootings, nor will it erase the legacy of racism and hate that sadly persists to this day. But at least there will be fewer visible reminders of it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-hallman/confederate-flag-racist-symbol_b_7624566.html
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Anyway, to answer your question hugh, my 2 daughters are 14 and 10. And my son is 5. Obviously he just liked the fire engines at the Wentworth street fire department. Surprisingly, my 14 year old didn't want to be there and really just had the "it's hot, can we go attitude?" I told her to her not to talk to me until we got home! I really thought she would get the most out of it. My 10 year old seemed to grasp what she was looking at. She didn't show emotion, but was asking some questions.
For many spiritual people, forgiveness means recognizing the humanity of the perpetrator and accepting humanity's imperfection. When I was going through my ordeal and now every time something like this happens, that's what I struggle with the most: Another human being did this. An animal, yes, maybe or maybe not an insane animal -- but a HUMAN animal. At some very deep, core level, all of us are capable of doing what this scum bag did, yet we don't. What separates the Dylann Roof's from the rest of us? How did Dylann Roof grow from the innocent being in his mother's womb into the violent, racist, hate-filled HUMAN being that he is? The question overwhelms me.
Sorry, but some things are simply inexcusable.
If one failed to negotiate a turn and caused a head on collision where someone was killed... we can forgive them for such an 'accident'. When someone plots a mass murder, sits in a church that has accepted him into their fold, and then lustfully opens fire killing nine innocent people he doesn't even know... he can rot in Hell.
I really don't want to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative thread or argue that the parties are divided by race, but dang, every election season, I feel like I need to get on a bus and register some black voters out in Awendaw or something. But I don't even know it would do any good!
Getting back to the flag, the only reason why I could see it someday coming down is that A LOT of "outsiders" are moving into the state from elsewhere. The people moving in, mostly from the north, might have some influence. And if there is a tourism boycott, forget it, that flag is coming down. South Carolina will die without tourism.
It's way more complicated than that. Some might call it delusional. I just know that even as I think this guy is the lowest scum on earth, I acknowledge that he is a human being, just like me capable of great "sin." From a word study point of view, forgiveness is about giving. Forgiving people are the most generous people on the planet, and we need more of them.
If Dylann Roof were a forgiving person, we would not sit here today having this conversation.
Every election cycle I feel the same frustration. How do we continue to vote for people like Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley, even Tim Scott? I know the answer. Many of those black people that were voting for Obama in those 2 presidential election didnt vote in any other elections. They didn't vote for their local representative, or their state senator. I really believe many black people voted just to see a black president and they probably will never vote again. Obviously, I've done no polls or have any statistics to back that up. That is strictly my opinion based on what I have seen.
You can hear this already with the gun argument. The guns didn't kill these people. Hell, I've even heard the NRA blaming reverend Pinckney for NOT allowing guns in his church to defend themselves.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
In regards to the tourism boycott, the NAACP has been actively engaged in boycotting SC tourism since 2000 (when they moved the flag from atop the statehouse). Tourism industry doesn't seem to be affected that much though. Charleston, Myrtle Beach, etc still draw lots of people every year. Honestly, the biggest impact of the boycott seems to be with NCAA sporting events. Non-merit based events can't be held in South Carolina. That prevents Columbia or Greenville from hosting men's NCAA Tournament games and has prevented the start of a football bowl game I believe.
http://www.ibtimes.com/westboro-baptist-church-blames-charleston-shooting-hillary-clinton-threatens-picket-1973484
In their case I don't think race plays a part. They just hate anything and everything liberal.
Ignorance at the pinnacle of stupidity.