9 Dead in Shooting at Black Church in SC

The Waiting Trophy Man

fife said:

Last-12-Exit said:

A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

So powerful.

just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me

I was watching live on TV when she said that and I don't mean any disrespect or anything but I didn't find it powerful and I don't think she's strong. It might look that way, but to me it's just learned behaviour from the bible, which I don't believe in at all. I think she's denying her true feelings in a way because she has learned/been taught to forgive. I'm not saying hat someone can't eventually forgive someone for something even this horrendous, but less than 48 hours later? The normal/natural reaction is not to forgive, it goes against human nature. It's like some cultures, such as Vietnamese, they're taught not to cry when a loved one dies. Fuck that. I'll cry. And if someone murdered a loved one in cold blood I'd be fucking angry. I wouldn't be sitting there saying "I forgive you." This POS doesn't even care. If he was there in the courtroom and someone handed him a gun he would've walked over to that woman after she said that and gunned her down, too. So it's just an abnormal response learned from the bible and in my opinion it's just bullshit, with all due respect. I wasn't moved at all. In fact, I had to mute the tv because I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it. And don't even get me started on that judge. He actually said, in front of all those grieving family members, that the family of the racist murdering scum bag were victims that needed considering too. What a fucking asshole! I would have lost my mind in that courtroom if I was a family member of one of the victims. Are you fucking kidding me!? Sorry for the long rant and the fact it's all one paragraph. Just had to keep typing and get it all out.

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
Don't be sorry for your "long rant".
Forgiving someone for killing your family because your religion dictates you?
That's fucked.
Carry on.
Fucking psycho of a human.

hedonist

We're on the outside; no need for any of us to be sorry for our rants or comments (but you've gotta expect reactions).

I'm not sure that religion itself commands some going where I cannot fathom - then again, I've never been in that position. So...no way I could or would decry such a gracious and perhaps needful way of reacting to this. By someone SO CLOSE.

It's not my place to belittle how a human being is trying to...BE...through this. Coming to terms with such trauma. It can't be too much to cut her a break if that's what is getting her through this horror. It could be her own sense of what's right for her - not blind faith, but her own faith. This will be fresher and rawer for her than any of us, and I find it presumptuous and a bit dismissive to assume otherwise.

And, the asshole who committed this crime is the one who is fucked. A victim of the asshole (too nice a term, by the way) trying to find peace being called fucked? That in itself - to me - is fucked up.

Also, please keep in mind this went down at a church. During bible study. Of course religion will factor in. May that, and whatever else helps to heal, keep on truckin.

The fuck am I to say otherwise?

PJfanwillneverleave1

Fuck that hedo.
I am scared of any person that can forgive a person that kills. Let alone a member of my family.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Just like any animal on this planet... I'd defend my family to a death (mine or the assailant's).

If a mushroom headed mutant went and randomly murdered one of my family members for shits and giggles... well... let's just say of all the things I would be thinking of doing... I wouldn't be thinking about 'forgiving him'. Pain I couldn't imagine.

The judge shouldn't have been talking about this creep's parents as victims. He should have been questioning the degree to which they are complicit in this event with their negligent parenting efforts.

hedonist

Well...I myself can't imagine being so forgiving (fuck knows it's taken me a long time to let go of lesser personal offenses), but I simply can't discount someone who IS able to do so. If that's what helps her even short-term? So be it.

Not being able to think of myself being in such a position to do that takes nothing from my admiration from those who can.

For the record, I have no sympathy for this less-than-piece of shit.

PJfanwillneverleave1

After the short-term forgiveness ends for her, what's next?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

hedonist said:

Well...I myself can't imagine being so forgiving (fuck knows it's taken me a long time to let go of lesser personal offenses), but I simply can't discount someone who IS able to do so. If that's what helps her even short-term? So be it.

Not being able to think of myself being in such a position to do that takes nothing from my admiration from those who can.

For the record, I have no sympathy for this less-than-piece of shit.

Whatever gets people through their day, Hedo. I'm hearing everything you're saying and it's all good from my perspective.

ldent42

I get what Hedo's saying. I don't know the woman who said it, I didn't see the footage, this is the first I've heard of it. But while we might be familiar with that kind of forgiveness as a Christian religious concept it's hardly just them. It's a very Zen thing too. I'd also speculate that she ain't saying she's not mad at him, nor is she giving him some kind of pass, but rather trying to let go of her anger. You know when you're really super pissed and you realize the person you're pissed at is so far beneath yoy that they're not worth the energy required to feel anger so you just walk away? I'd imagine that by saying "I forgive you" she's making a gesture of taking the high road, 'you tried to hurt me, you wanted to anger me and my people and start a race war, and I'm not gonna give you that power. I'm not gonna let you have that, not gonna give you my anger, my fury, my reaction. I forgive you, you get none of the hate you sought out of me.'

Again I don't know her. She might be quoting Jesus, I really don't know. But I mean Jesus (the bible) ain't been around longer than the philosophical concept of the high road. So even if that is where she's getting it from I see no harm in it since the principle remains the same.

I'm sure she's pissed as hell but her words to me sound like an act of defiance. And I'm with Hedo on this point too, if she's got the grace to handle it like that (publicly mind you) more fucking power to her. I've seen myself in a situation where grief and wrongdoing where factors and it wasn't pretty. I'm not a violent person at all but there is a primal instinctive reactionary violence in me that scares the fucking bejesus out of me - and if that lady is able to overcome that and stand up and hold her head high and say "no. You do not deserve my anger. Have some forgiveness instead (cuz that's the opposite of what you were going for)." Then more fucking power to her. And also can I have some lessons?

brianlux

ldent42 said:

I get what Hedo's saying. I don't know the woman who said it, I didn't see the footage, this is the first I've heard of it. But while we might be familiar with that kind of forgiveness as a Christian religious concept it's hardly just them. It's a very Zen thing too. I'd also speculate that she ain't saying she's not mad at him, nor is she giving him some kind of pass, but rather trying to let go of her anger. You know when you're really super pissed and you realize the person you're pissed at is so far beneath yoy that they're not worth the energy required to feel anger so you just walk away? I'd imagine that by saying "I forgive you" she's making a gesture of taking the high road, 'you tried to hurt me, you wanted to anger me and my people and start a race war, and I'm not gonna give you that power. I'm not gonna let you have that, not gonna give you my anger, my fury, my reaction. I forgive you, you get none of the hate you sought out of me.'

Again I don't know her. She might be quoting Jesus, I really don't know. But I mean Jesus (the bible) ain't been around longer than the philosophical concept of the high road. So even if that is where she's getting it from I see no harm in it since the principle remains the same.

I'm sure she's pissed as hell but her words to me sound like an act of defiance. And I'm with Hedo on this point too, if she's got the grace to handle it like that (publicly mind you) more fucking power to her. I've seen myself in a situation where grief and wrongdoing where factors and it wasn't pretty. I'm not a violent person at all but there is a primal instinctive reactionary violence in me that scares the fucking bejesus out of me - and if that lady is able to overcome that and stand up and hold her head high and say "no. You do not deserve my anger. Have some forgiveness instead (cuz that's the opposite of what you were going for)." Then more fucking power to her. And also can I have some lessons?

Good thoughts there, Ident. I'm not sure I understand that kind of forgiveness but I think you and Hedo are saying is that maybe there is a power some posses in being able to hold back their anger and not give it over to the perpetrator. I kind of doubt most of us have that or can do that but there might be something to learn there.

One of the questions that surely will arise from all of this is what is the best response to all this as in, how do we reign in the kind of hatred and bigotry that lead to this sort of thing? To my way of thinking it's surely not through reckless violence but neither through passive acceptance. It seems to me there has to be some very powerful resistance to this kind of hatred. I'm thinking about the film "Selma" with it's excellent depiction of the work of MLK, the thoughts and actions of Malcolm X in his later days, the work of SNCC and other Civil Rights groups. A new civil war of some kind is what that deranged kid is hoping for. He should get no war of any kind, but rather strong, determined, powerful resistance.

ldent42

brianlux said:

ldent42 said:

I get what Hedo's saying. I don't know the woman who said it, I didn't see the footage, this is the first I've heard of it. But while we might be familiar with that kind of forgiveness as a Christian religious concept it's hardly just them. It's a very Zen thing too. I'd also speculate that she ain't saying she's not mad at him, nor is she giving him some kind of pass, but rather trying to let go of her anger. You know when you're really super pissed and you realize the person you're pissed at is so far beneath yoy that they're not worth the energy required to feel anger so you just walk away? I'd imagine that by saying "I forgive you" she's making a gesture of taking the high road, 'you tried to hurt me, you wanted to anger me and my people and start a race war, and I'm not gonna give you that power. I'm not gonna let you have that, not gonna give you my anger, my fury, my reaction. I forgive you, you get none of the hate you sought out of me.'

Again I don't know her. She might be quoting Jesus, I really don't know. But I mean Jesus (the bible) ain't been around longer than the philosophical concept of the high road. So even if that is where she's getting it from I see no harm in it since the principle remains the same.

I'm sure she's pissed as hell but her words to me sound like an act of defiance. And I'm with Hedo on this point too, if she's got the grace to handle it like that (publicly mind you) more fucking power to her. I've seen myself in a situation where grief and wrongdoing where factors and it wasn't pretty. I'm not a violent person at all but there is a primal instinctive reactionary violence in me that scares the fucking bejesus out of me - and if that lady is able to overcome that and stand up and hold her head high and say "no. You do not deserve my anger. Have some forgiveness instead (cuz that's the opposite of what you were going for)." Then more fucking power to her. And also can I have some lessons?

Good thoughts there, Ident. I'm not sure I understand that kind of forgiveness but I think you and Hedo are saying is that maybe there is a power some posses in being able to hold back their anger and not give it over to the perpetrator. I kind of doubt most of us have that or can do that but there might be something to learn there.

One of the questions that surely will arise from all of this is what is the best response to all this as in, how do we reign in the kind of hatred and bigotry that lead to this sort of thing? To my way of thinking it's surely not through reckless violence but neither through passive acceptance. It seems to me there has to be some very powerful resistance to this kind of hatred. I'm thinking about the film "Selma" with it's excellent depiction of the work of MLK, the thoughts and actions of Malcolm X in his later days, the work of SNCC and other Civil Rights groups. A new civil war of some kind is what that deranged kid is hoping for. He should get no war of any kind, but rather strong, determined, powerful resistance.

Exactly, and responding to him with "forgiveness" which is generally speaking (and from what I can understand biblically speaking) an act of "love" is like the ultimate defiant gesture. Remember, fire cannot be fought with fire, it must be fought with water - likewise fighting hate with hate or anger is pointless, the only cure (counterbalance) to hate, is love.

And ty, B-lux.

Last-12-Exit

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

After the short-term forgiveness ends for her, what's next?

Healing, acceptance, moving on??

Last-12-Exit

The Waiting Trophy Man said:

fife said:

Last-12-Exit said:

A mother of one of the victims said to this scum bag "I forgive you, my god have mercy on you. I forgive you."

So powerful.

just don't know what to say about this. she is a stronger person than me

I was watching live on TV when she said that and I don't mean any disrespect or anything but I didn't find it powerful and I don't think she's strong. It might look that way, but to me it's just learned behaviour from the bible, which I don't believe in at all. I think she's denying her true feelings in a way because she has learned/been taught to forgive. I'm not saying hat someone can't eventually forgive someone for something even this horrendous, but less than 48 hours later? The normal/natural reaction is not to forgive, it goes against human nature. It's like some cultures, such as Vietnamese, they're taught not to cry when a loved one dies. Fuck that. I'll cry. And if someone murdered a loved one in cold blood I'd be fucking angry. I wouldn't be sitting there saying "I forgive you." This POS doesn't even care. If he was there in the courtroom and someone handed him a gun he would've walked over to that woman after she said that and gunned her down, too. So it's just an abnormal response learned from the bible and in my opinion it's just bullshit, with all due respect. I wasn't moved at all. In fact, I had to mute the tv because I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it. And don't even get me started on that judge. He actually said, in front of all those grieving family members, that the family of the racist murdering scum bag were victims that needed considering too. What a fucking asshole! I would have lost my mind in that courtroom if I was a family member of one of the victims. Are you fucking kidding me!? Sorry for the long rant and the fact it's all one paragraph. Just had to keep typing and get it all out.

I wholeheartedly disagree with most of your post. I do agree with what you said about the magistrate judge. What a piece of shit that guy is.

PJfanwillneverleave1

ldent42 said:

I get what Hedo's saying. I don't know the woman who said it, I didn't see the footage, this is the first I've heard of it. But while we might be familiar with that kind of forgiveness as a Christian religious concept it's hardly just them. It's a very Zen thing too. I'd also speculate that she ain't saying she's not mad at him, nor is she giving him some kind of pass, but rather trying to let go of her anger. You know when you're really super pissed and you realize the person you're pissed at is so far beneath yoy that they're not worth the energy required to feel anger so you just walk away? I'd imagine that by saying "I forgive you" she's making a gesture of taking the high road, 'you tried to hurt me, you wanted to anger me and my people and start a race war, and I'm not gonna give you that power. I'm not gonna let you have that, not gonna give you my anger, my fury, my reaction. I forgive you, you get none of the hate you sought out of me.'

Again I don't know her. She might be quoting Jesus, I really don't know. But I mean Jesus (the bible) ain't been around longer than the philosophical concept of the high road. So even if that is where she's getting it from I see no harm in it since the principle remains the same.

I'm sure she's pissed as hell but her words to me sound like an act of defiance. And I'm with Hedo on this point too, if she's got the grace to handle it like that (publicly mind you) more fucking power to her. I've seen myself in a situation where grief and wrongdoing where factors and it wasn't pretty. I'm not a violent person at all but there is a primal instinctive reactionary violence in me that scares the fucking bejesus out of me - and if that lady is able to overcome that and stand up and hold her head high and say "no. You do not deserve my anger. Have some forgiveness instead (cuz that's the opposite of what you were going for)." Then more fucking power to her. And also can I have some lessons?

If someone killing a member of your family doesn't deserve loud and vehement anger what does?
Forgiving acts such as that is called living in a fog not zen.
Wake up.

Last-12-Exit

"We welcomed you Wednesday night in our Bible study with open arms. You have killed some of the most beautiful people that I know. Every fiber in my body hurts, and I'll never be the same. But, as we said in that bible study, we enjoyed you. And now may God have mercy on you."
Felicia Sanders, mother of Tywanza Sanders and survivor of the massacre.

I know we like to act like we will feel a certain way if this kind of tragedy hits us closely. While some of you may have had this kind of horror in your life, most of us havent. I am not a religious person. I do not believe in god. But in no way will I tell these people how to cope with the trauma they have experienced. The utter horror. Honestly, I can't believe some of you would criticize forgiveness. Maybe it is the natural reaction humans should have to tragedy. How are you so sure that rage, anger, and vengeance is supposed to come first?

mickeyrat

just want to make sure I am clear on what folks are saying. The way to overcome hate is to hate? Gotcha. Judging how someone is making their way through the loss of family and friends is kinda fucked up in my lowly opinion.

my sister was raped at 14. hung jury trial. dead by suicide month and a half before her 16th birthday. My father had the opportunity to have this man killed(childhood friend of mine currently doing 33 years before parole possible for murder, who offered to do this). He refused as he couldnt have it on his conscience. I ,on the otherhand, carried a deep and abiding hatred of the man and his family and friends for 18 years as well as myself for not "defending her after the fact". Did nothing but keep me stuck in a very dark place I now refuse to go back to for anything. EVER.

in my view, the people who are willing to forgive will still feel to the depths of their core the hurt and pain, which is bad enough, without adding the burden that hate and sustained anger adds.

rgambs

I understand both sides pretty well.
People should be free to deal with this as they please and forgiveness is the path to freedom from a heinous act like this.
On the other hand, I do feel like this forgiveness being given might not be genuine. It is good for representing your religion and trying to move forward, but it doesn't come off as particularly genuine to me. Accept your anger, express it healthily and move toward forgiveness.
But like I said, everyone deals in their own way and it is good for the larger conversation to be so gentle and not stir the anger of outsiders.

PJfanwillneverleave1

I am glad that the world/USA has forgiven the perpetrators of 911 and expresses no anger.

Last-12-Exit

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

I am glad that the world/USA has forgiven the perpetrators of 911 and expresses no anger.

Good point. I am one of those still angry over 9/11. But I didn't say I was any better than the victims of this massacre. My point is that these people shouldn't be criticized for dealing with this horror the only way they know how to. All of these people are angry. I do think their feelings of forgiveness are genuine. That doesn't make them any less angry or hurt.

What I know is that this crime was an act of pure hate and evil. And these people will not allow the hate he had to breed and fester inside of them.

badbrains

mickeyrat said:

just want to make sure I am clear on what folks are saying. The way to overcome hate is to hate? Gotcha. Judging how someone is making their way through the loss of family and friends is kinda fucked up in my lowly opinion.

my sister was raped at 14. hung jury trial. dead by suicide month and a half before her 16th birthday. My father had the opportunity to have this man killed(childhood friend of mine currently doing 33 years before parole possible for murder, who offered to do this). He refused as he couldnt have it on his conscience. I ,on the otherhand, carried a deep and abiding hatred of the man and his family and friends for 18 years as well as myself for not "defending her after the fact". Did nothing but keep me stuck in a very dark place I now refuse to go back to for anything. EVER.

in my view, the people who are willing to forgive will still feel to the depths of their core the hurt and pain, which is bad enough, without adding the burden that hate and sustained anger adds.

Wow, that's some shit right there. Saying sorry to hear just doesn't do it.