***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,926
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Ryan Howard:
    4 full major league seasons - averages of 49.6 home runs and 143 RBIs
    last 3 full major league seasons - averages of 46.6 home runs and 141 RBIs

    and as I mentioned before, 3 division titles, 2 world series appearances, 1 world series title and possibly on the verge of being the greatest 3 year post-season run by a National League team in over 60 years.

    the man is paid to hit home runs and drive in runs and does it at a prodigious rate for a team on a once in a lifetime era of baseball in Philly and possible all of the national league for a 70 year period. NUFF SAID.

    This says nothing that has not already been stated. Yes, the entire world knows, Ryan Howard is a very good player on an excellent team. This cannot possibly be an argument for why he is better than another player or worth the contract he got.

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    edited May 2010
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Ryan Howard:
    4 full major league seasons - averages of 49.6 home runs and 143 RBIs
    last 3 full major league seasons - averages of 46.6 home runs and 141 RBIs

    and as I mentioned before, 3 division titles, 2 world series appearances, 1 world series title and possibly on the verge of being the greatest 3 year post-season run by a National League team in over 60 years.

    the man is paid to hit home runs and drive in runs and does it at a prodigious rate for a team on a once in a lifetime era of baseball in Philly and possible all of the national league for a 70 year period. NUFF SAID.

    This says nothing that has not already been stated. Yes, the entire world knows, Ryan Howard is a very good player on an excellent team. This cannot possibly be an argument for why he is better than another player or worth the contract he got.

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.

    100% but the Phillies have an excellent team. You put any of those other players on the Phillies and chances are they would have had the same success, if not more.

    Edit: I would take Utley over Howard offensivly any day as well, especially considering the position they play.
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    pjhawks wrote:

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.


    From 1991–2005 the Braves were one of the most successful franchises in baseball, winning division titles an unprecedented 14 consecutive times in that period (omitting the strike-shortened 1994 season in which there were no official division champions). The Braves won the NL West 1991–93 and the NL East 1995–2005. The Braves advanced to the World Series five times in the 1990s, winning the title in 1995


    i don't think the phils will ever top that


    just saying
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    metsfan wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.


    From 1991–2005 the Braves were one of the most successful franchises in baseball, winning division titles an unprecedented 14 consecutive times in that period (omitting the strike-shortened 1994 season in which there were no official division champions). The Braves won the NL West 1991–93 and the NL East 1995–2005. The Braves advanced to the World Series five times in the 1990s, winning the title in 1995


    i don't think the phils will ever top that


    just saying

    The Big Red Machine average 98 wins over 7 years with 3 World Series wins, 1 WS loss, and 1 loss in the final game of the NLCS from 70-76 and missed the playoffs with 98 wins in 74.

    That's a pretty impressive run as well.
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • RW81233
    RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Ryan Howard:
    4 full major league seasons - averages of 49.6 home runs and 143 RBIs
    last 3 full major league seasons - averages of 46.6 home runs and 141 RBIs

    and as I mentioned before, 3 division titles, 2 world series appearances, 1 world series title and possibly on the verge of being the greatest 3 year post-season run by a National League team in over 60 years.

    the man is paid to hit home runs and drive in runs and does it at a prodigious rate for a team on a once in a lifetime era of baseball in Philly and possible all of the national league for a 70 year period. NUFF SAID.

    This says nothing that has not already been stated. Yes, the entire world knows, Ryan Howard is a very good player on an excellent team. This cannot possibly be an argument for why he is better than another player or worth the contract he got.

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.
    I guess that's the point...don't you think that Prince and Gonzalez would do just as well, if not better, in Philly? Would their presence mean the Phils lose in the playoffs? Over the long term? I mean if you sign Prince to that deal NEXT YEAR it gets him for years 28-33 with an option for 34...not 32-37 with an option for 38 (I may be off a year here or there with that). His numbers have risen or stayed constant for the last 3 years while Howard has started to fail, particularly against LHP. Howard has improved in the field and started taking care of his body, but Fielder has too (even going and remaining vegan leading to a significant weight loss and even better hitting numbers). He's every bit the leader that Howard is in the Brewers dugout, and I'm sure he'd do well in Philly. As a Brewer fan I have to admit that I'm looking at this with my own SUBJECTIVE "eye test", but I think Prince has to be considered as a good an individual and team player as Ryan Howard at this point in their respective careers. As for Gonzalez I don't watch him play 120-140 times per year, but he can't be getting this kind of attention for sucking. It's fine if you're arguing for Ryan Howard because he's your guy and he has brought you joy as a Phillies fan for the last 4-5 years, but just because he's been successful on a successful team doesn't mean he's automatically better than other players.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.

    100% but the Phillies have an excellent team. You put any of those other players on the Phillies and chances are they would have had the same success, if not more.

    Edit: I would take Utley over Howard offensivly any day as well, especially considering the position they play.

    you are still not accounting for howard putting the entire team on his shoulders down the stretch each of the last 3 seasons. he has done this at times when the rest of the team were in slumps or not at their best. you cannot accurately predict that any of those other guys would have stepped up in the same way at such crucial moments in a season...this is where you have to look at intangibles not stats.
    www.myspace.com
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    metsfan wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.


    From 1991–2005 the Braves were one of the most successful franchises in baseball, winning division titles an unprecedented 14 consecutive times in that period (omitting the strike-shortened 1994 season in which there were no official division champions). The Braves won the NL West 1991–93 and the NL East 1995–2005. The Braves advanced to the World Series five times in the 1990s, winning the title in 1995


    i don't think the phils will ever top that


    just saying

    what the reds and cardinals did back in the day was tougher than what the braves did. the nl east is not that great right now, obviously. but it was atrocious for much of the nineties when they had their heyday...which still ultimately culminated in as many world series wins as we already have in the last couple years. its much tough to make it to 3 straight world seires than 5 in a 15 year period.
    www.myspace.com
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,537
    Solat13 wrote:
    metsfan wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.


    From 1991–2005 the Braves were one of the most successful franchises in baseball, winning division titles an unprecedented 14 consecutive times in that period (omitting the strike-shortened 1994 season in which there were no official division champions). The Braves won the NL West 1991–93 and the NL East 1995–2005. The Braves advanced to the World Series five times in the 1990s, winning the title in 1995


    i don't think the phils will ever top that


    just saying

    The Big Red Machine average 98 wins over 7 years with 3 World Series wins, 1 WS loss, and 1 loss in the final game of the NLCS from 70-76 and missed the playoffs with 98 wins in 74.

    That's a pretty impressive run as well.

    And if the Phils were to make the WS this year(knocking on fucking wood LOUDLY), then this would be an incredible feat in its own, as it hasn't been done by an NL team since the Cardinals of the late 40's.
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    Solat13 wrote:
    The Big Red Machine average 98 wins over 7 years with 3 World Series wins, 1 WS loss, and 1 loss in the final game of the NLCS from 70-76 and missed the playoffs with 98 wins in 74.

    That's a pretty impressive run as well.
    totally forgot bout the big red machine

    :oops:
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • Solat13
    Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    The Jeagler wrote:
    you are still not accounting for howard putting the entire team on his shoulders down the stretch each of the last 3 seasons. he has done this at times when the rest of the team were in slumps or not at their best. you cannot accurately predict that any of those other guys would have stepped up in the same way at such crucial moments in a season...this is where you have to look at intangibles not stats.

    Obviously you can't account for situations of the team such as where they are in the standings but here are the Sept/Oct numbers for the 6 mentioned earlier the last 3 regular seasons:

    Howard .303/.407/.674/1.081 30HR 88RBI
    Pujols .356/.451/.644/1.095 16HR 71RBI
    Fielder .314/.428/.653/1.081 27HR 65RBI
    Gonzalez .285/.380/.564/.944 21HR 70RBI
    Tex .329/.407/.626/1.033 19HR 64RBI
    Cabrera .310/.394/.526/.920 19HR 70RBI
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    jamminpearls wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    This is insane the bottom line in sports is wins and loses correct. And the players with the best numbers get paid the most correct. I could give a shit about saberwhatever or all these other insane new things. Gotta love j happ killn it last year but because of some new thing sayn his balls get hit hard or right to people last that he should have a bad year this year. INSANE. If my eyes tell me the players good that's all I need to know. Howard is by far better then any other 1st basemen besides pujulos and that's just a FACT. And if you disagree your just wrong.

    wow. you should be working as a MLB scout somewhere. all you'd need to do is watch the games and tell people who's good. when they argue or bring up stats, you can just tell them that they don't know what they're talking about. you'd need some help with grammar though.
    First off I'm on my blackberry so its hard to type as is. Second the stats tell me that he's the best in two major catorgies. Hrs, rbis he's NUMBER 1 are they important STATS to u???? Or is batting avg against a lh pitcher more important?

    no, RBI are not important stats. read the previous few pages
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Jearlpam0925 wrote:
    This is all crazy talk. The Howard contract is horrendous. The only thing that got me giddy about it is the commitment from the organization to its proven players. But I'm taking Tex, Poop Holes, Fielder, A Gone, Miggy, and possibly Morneau over Howard any day. Howard is a product of this lineup for the most part. Put Howard on Cincy, Pitt, KC, or any other garbage team and no pitcher pitches to him, he doesn't end up with more than 35 homers, and continues to strikeout or hit a home run with even less people on base due to there no being three all stars hitting in front of you. Love Howard, but this is all crazy talk.

    Another spot on post from someone who knows his baseball.

    yeah, jearlpam always brings good shit to the table
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    So for obp howrds 5th and for slugging and ops he's 2nd.then u add the fact that he's number 1 in hrs and rbi's.

    This is being greatly skewed by his MVP season which was 4 years ago. I tend to look at the past 3 seasons. That looks like this:

    .266 .363 .565 .928

    this is the correct way to analyze a player...you look at career trends, not career averages.

    howard peaked during his MVP season...they are overpaying for diminishing returns going forward. the contract sucks balls
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,926
    The Fixer wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    So for obp howrds 5th and for slugging and ops he's 2nd.then u add the fact that he's number 1 in hrs and rbi's.

    This is being greatly skewed by his MVP season which was 4 years ago. I tend to look at the past 3 seasons. That looks like this:

    .266 .363 .565 .928

    this is the correct way to analyze a player...you look at career trends, not career averages.

    howard peaked during his MVP season...they are overpaying for diminishing returns going forward. the contract sucks balls

    diminishing returns of averaging 46.6 home runs and 141 rbi's the past 3 seasons. sorry I'll take those diminshing returns over anyone not named Pujols.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    nope. you missed the sarcasm and i thought i layed it on pretty thick. he's replacing a guy who has made a career at swinging at the first pitch so it's only fitting he has bad at bats too. see where i'm going there?...wait for it...ah yes, there ya go![/quote][/quote][/quote]

    well played
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    pjhawks wrote:

    diminishing returns of averaging 46.6 home runs and 141 rbi's the past 3 seasons. sorry I'll take those diminshing returns over anyone not named Pujols.

    stop look at rbi's. stop looking at rbi's. stop looking at rbi's. stop looking at rbi's
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    pjhawks wrote:
    Ryan Howard:
    4 full major league seasons - averages of 49.6 home runs and 143 RBIs
    last 3 full major league seasons - averages of 46.6 home runs and 141 RBIs

    FAIL

    I give up with this dude
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Ryan Howard:
    4 full major league seasons - averages of 49.6 home runs and 143 RBIs
    last 3 full major league seasons - averages of 46.6 home runs and 141 RBIs

    and as I mentioned before, 3 division titles, 2 world series appearances, 1 world series title and possibly on the verge of being the greatest 3 year post-season run by a National League team in over 60 years.

    the man is paid to hit home runs and drive in runs and does it at a prodigious rate for a team on a once in a lifetime era of baseball in Philly and possible all of the national league for a 70 year period. NUFF SAID.

    This says nothing that has not already been stated. Yes, the entire world knows, Ryan Howard is a very good player on an excellent team. This cannot possibly be an argument for why he is better than another player or worth the contract he got.

    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.

    when you talk about most productive offensive player on the phils you refer to chase utley
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Isn't winning important along with numbers? I mean the most productive offensive player on a team that is on the verge of the greatest 70 year post-season run for a National League team surely has to hold more weight than a bunch of players with good stats who have yet to win more than one playoff series (Gonzalez, Fielder,etc.) doesn't it? Surely you can't argue winning and his numbers.[/quote]

    100% but the Phillies have an excellent team. You put any of those other players on the Phillies and chances are they would have had the same success, if not more.

    Edit: I would take Utley over Howard offensivly any day as well, especially considering the position they play.[/quote][/quote]

    you are still not accounting for howard putting the entire team on his shoulders down the stretch each of the last 3 seasons. he has done this at times when the rest of the team were in slumps or not at their best. you cannot accurately predict that any of those other guys would have stepped up in the same way at such crucial moments in a season...this is where you have to look at intangibles not stats.[/quote]

    the team wouldn't have needed him to do this in september of 2008 if he wasn't so fucking awful for the first 4 months of the season. check out his stats from that year...the dude SUCKED from April - July...everyone remembers his great september (which I give him credit for)...but if howard was even average for the first 4 months of the season the phils win the division going away.

    so please stop with the 'he carries them in sept' crap
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    LEARN TO QUOTE. IT IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

    i, and everyone else here, am well aware of his early season struggles that year. i am also aware that he was WHITE HOT down the stretch when we needed him.

    so, no, i won't stop with the "he carries them in sept crap" cuz he does it every year...

    you can pick out stats to knock him but this is one thing you certainly cannot knock him for. come on dude.
    www.myspace.com
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