***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    metsfan wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.
    sadly you aren't to far off and shockingly i agree with the bolded part of your post. i don't understand all this xzr bullshit and hold stats or whatever else. whats more scary is gm's like the mariners gm and others use these sabermertics "stats" to sign and draft players.

    this is the most we have ever agreed on anything. ever. it is scary.

    i do realize there is a place for sabermetrics though. my only beef is that some people get waaa too carried away with them though. theres more to evaluating a player than stats.
    www.myspace.com
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Sure it did, but why not look a bit deeper? Why not think about whats really important in a player, especially with all the great minds in the game today. At one point in time OBP was unheard of now you can't go 10 minutes watching a game without hearing about it.[/quote][/quote]

    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.[/quote]

    like your boy pedro feliz right? his sabermetric numbers are atrocious (always have been)

    sorry man, it's gonna take me a while to forget about that one. Just breaking your stones
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    The Fixer wrote:
    metsfan wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.
    sadly you aren't to far off and shockingly i agree with the bolded part of your post. i don't understand all this xzr bullshit and hold stats or whatever else. whats more scary is gm's like the mariners gm and others use these sabermertics "stats" to sign and draft players.

    all GMs should use sabermetrics. guys that don't like minaya and amaro, dole out ridiculous contracts to ryan howard, oliver perez, jason bay, jaime moyer, etc

    seattle's GM has had a great first year...and tampa and boston's GMs (theo epstein and andrew friedman) are probably the two biggest proponents of sabermetrics (along with billy beane in oakland). Those teams aren't bad

    sabermetrics aren't the only thing that should be used to judge a player, but to ignore them is just dumb.

    Very well said. Tampa's GM is a perfect example. He has put together a great team on a tiny budget using the draft and utilizing these advances stats to make decisions. Cashman uses them, Epstein uses them, Jed Hoyer (who is going to be really good) uses them. Any GM that is good at their jobs uses them. Shit the Red Sox even have developed their own stats to evaluate players.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    metsfan wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:

    all GMs should use sabermetrics. guys that don't like minaya and amaro, dole out ridiculous contracts to ryan howard, oliver perez, jason bay, jaime moyer, etc

    seattle's GM has had a great first year...and tampa and boston's GMs are probably the two biggest proponents of sabermetrics. Those teams aren't bad

    sabermetrics aren't the only thing that should be used to judge a player, but to ignore them is just dumb.
    i'm not ignoring them i think its the "it" thing in baseball like moneyball was. one of these sabermetrics stats had daniel murphy as the 5th best defensive 1st baseman. a player whose a career minor leaguer and now doesn't have his 1st base job. what does that say bout these so called "stats".

    um, moneyball pretty much introduced sabermetrics. it's a great read

    I do agree that the defensive saber numbers are flawed...that's a work in progress
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,922
    The Jeagler wrote:
    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.

    Jaegs give up - any guys who would consider Joey Votto over Ryan Howard are a lost cause. I'll take Howard and our 3 straight division titles and 2 world series appearances and COUNTING.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    The Jeagler wrote:
    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.

    You are talking to Derek Jeters biggest fan. I Know there are other things but these stats can tell you a lot.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    The Fixer wrote:
    Sure it did, but why not look a bit deeper? Why not think about whats really important in a player, especially with all the great minds in the game today. At one point in time OBP was unheard of now you can't go 10 minutes watching a game without hearing about it.
    [/quote]

    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.[/quote]

    like your boy pedro feliz right? his sabermetric numbers are atrocious (always have been)

    sorry man, it's gonna take me a while to forget about that one. Just breaking your stones[/quote]

    for the record, i always said polanco would be better offensively. i just thought we'd miss feliz's defense. time will tell. looks like i will be wrong with that though.

    still you, for some sabermetric reason probably, don't like jayson werth who is having himself another stellar year. so....advantage: jeagler.

    plus- you suck at quoting!
    www.myspace.com
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    pjhawks wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.

    Jaegs give up - any guys who would consider Joey Votto over Ryan Howard are a lost cause. I'll take Howard and our 3 straight division titles and 2 world series appearances and COUNTING.

    ok, let's simplify things for you...you're obviously struggling to comprehend what I'm saying here.

    do you like the howard contract?
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Jeagler wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:
    Sure it did, but why not look a bit deeper? Why not think about whats really important in a player, especially with all the great minds in the game today. At one point in time OBP was unheard of now you can't go 10 minutes watching a game without hearing about it.

    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.[/quote]

    like your boy pedro feliz right? his sabermetric numbers are atrocious (always have been)

    sorry man, it's gonna take me a while to forget about that one. Just breaking your stones[/quote]

    for the record, i always said polanco would be better offensively. i just thought we'd miss feliz's defense. time will tell. looks like i will be wrong with that though.

    still you, for some sabermetric reason probably, don't like jayson werth who is having himself another stellar year. so....advantage: jeagler.

    plus- you suck at quoting![/quote]

    I love werth...I would have rather seen amaro overpay him than howard too. I just think he makes a LOT of mental mistakes (baserunning, throwing to wrong base or missing a cutoff man, etc). Some team will overpay for him this offseason.

    Feliz is your boy...

    I am terrible at quoting
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    victorino takes the cake when it comes to mental mistakes. he's got werth beat by a mile there.

    plus werth has a cool beard. that has to count for something.
    www.myspace.com
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,922
    The Fixer wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.

    Jaegs give up - any guys who would consider Joey Votto over Ryan Howard are a lost cause. I'll take Howard and our 3 straight division titles and 2 world series appearances and COUNTING.

    ok, let's simplify things for you...you're obviously struggling to comprehend what I'm saying here.

    do you like the howard contract?

    see my response about 5 pages ago - this will kind of long so please read it all to comprehend it.
    Yes I like the contract in the sense that it gives the Phils window another 3 or 4 years to compete at the top level. Do I believe the last year or two may hamstring the franchise at that point - yes I do but I think the opportunity for maybe 3 more years of championship caliber baseball is worth the risk of being hamstrung in 2016 and 2017.
    The 2nd point is that the Phils have set the market for 1st basemen now and will not follow the market. If Pujols, Gonzalez or Fielder had signed 1st the market could/will be at a higher level so in essence the deal may end up being a bargain in the long run (a la what the Eagles do). Before deeming the $25 million in excess let's see where the market is in the next 3 years. Short of developing a superstar from your own system surely you will not be replacing Howard's production in 2 years for less than $25 million.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Jeagler wrote:
    victorino takes the cake when it comes to mental mistakes. he's got werth beat by a mile there.

    plus werth has a cool beard. that has to count for something.

    he does make a lot of mental mistakes. last night he came up with 2 outs...as a leadoff hitter you NEVER swing at the first pitch after the pitcher makes the 2nd out. You take your time getting into the box, and ALWAYS take a strike. This lets the pitcher get a drink, take a seat, and get prepared for the next inning. of course victorino hacks at the first pitch and flies out. stupid, stupid, stupid

    I love the mental aspect of baseball...one of the reasons why it's the best sport
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    This is insane the bottom line in sports is wins and loses correct. And the players with the best numbers get paid the most correct. I could give a shit about saberwhatever or all these other insane new things. Gotta love j happ killn it last year but because of some new thing sayn his balls get hit hard or right to people last that he should have a bad year this year. INSANE. If my eyes tell me the players good that's all I need to know. Howard is by far better then any other 1st basemen besides pujulos and that's just a FACT. And if you disagree your just wrong.
    Go Birds!!!!
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    jamminpearls wrote:
    This is insane the bottom line in sports is wins and loses correct. And the players with the best numbers get paid the most correct. I could give a shit about saberwhatever or all these other insane new things. Gotta love j happ killn it last year but because of some new thing sayn his balls get hit hard or right to people last that he should have a bad year this year. INSANE. If my eyes tell me the players good that's all I need to know. Howard is by far better then any other 1st basemen besides pujulos and that's just a FACT. And if you disagree your just wrong.

    wow. you should be working as a MLB scout somewhere. all you'd need to do is watch the games and tell people who's good. when they argue or bring up stats, you can just tell them that they don't know what they're talking about. you'd need some help with grammar though.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    jamminpearls wrote:
    This is insane the bottom line in sports is wins and loses correct. And the players with the best numbers get paid the most correct. I could give a shit about saberwhatever or all these other insane new things. Gotta love j happ killn it last year but because of some new thing sayn his balls get hit hard or right to people last that he should have a bad year this year. INSANE. If my eyes tell me the players good that's all I need to know. Howard is by far better then any other 1st basemen besides pujulos and that's just a FACT. And if you disagree your just wrong.

    Just out of curiorsity, how often do you watch other teams besides the Phillies? Honestly? If your eyeballs are the only thing that tells you how good a player is, then how do you know Howard is so much better than everyone? You surely do not watch the Padres play more than 10 times a year?
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    The Fixer wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    victorino takes the cake when it comes to mental mistakes. he's got werth beat by a mile there.

    plus werth has a cool beard. that has to count for something.

    he does make a lot of mental mistakes. last night he came up with 2 outs...as a leadoff hitter you NEVER swing at the first pitch after the pitcher makes the 2nd out. You take your time getting into the box, and ALWAYS take a strike. This lets the pitcher get a drink, take a seat, and get prepared for the next inning. of course victorino hacks at the first pitch and flies out. stupid, stupid, stupid

    I love the mental aspect of baseball...one of the reasons why it's the best sport

    well he's replacing jroll right now so that makes perfect sense.
    www.myspace.com
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Jeagler wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    victorino takes the cake when it comes to mental mistakes. he's got werth beat by a mile there.

    plus werth has a cool beard. that has to count for something.

    he does make a lot of mental mistakes. last night he came up with 2 outs...as a leadoff hitter you NEVER swing at the first pitch after the pitcher makes the 2nd out. You take your time getting into the box, and ALWAYS take a strike. This lets the pitcher get a drink, take a seat, and get prepared for the next inning. of course victorino hacks at the first pitch and flies out. stupid, stupid, stupid

    I love the mental aspect of baseball...one of the reasons why it's the best sport

    well he's replacing jroll right now so that makes perfect sense.

    nah, that's little league shit. like guarding the line in the 9th inning with a 1 run lead...something howard failed to do last week that led to the tying run (vs SF). but most fans see he had an RBI in the box score and don't notice that type of stuff
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    yea joey work on your grammar

    slacker

    :lol::lol::mrgreen:
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,536
    This is all crazy talk. The Howard contract is horrendous. The only thing that got me giddy about it is the commitment from the organization to its proven players. But I'm taking Tex, Poop Holes, Fielder, A Gone, Miggy, and possibly Morneau over Howard any day. Howard is a product of this lineup for the most part. Put Howard on Cincy, Pitt, KC, or any other garbage team and no pitcher pitches to him, he doesn't end up with more than 35 homers, and continues to strikeout or hit a home run with even less people on base due to there no being three all stars hitting in front of you. Love Howard, but this is all crazy talk.
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    The Fixer wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    This is insane the bottom line in sports is wins and loses correct. And the players with the best numbers get paid the most correct. I could give a shit about saberwhatever or all these other insane new things. Gotta love j happ killn it last year but because of some new thing sayn his balls get hit hard or right to people last that he should have a bad year this year. INSANE. If my eyes tell me the players good that's all I need to know. Howard is by far better then any other 1st basemen besides pujulos and that's just a FACT. And if you disagree your just wrong.

    wow. you should be working as a MLB scout somewhere. all you'd need to do is watch the games and tell people who's good. when they argue or bring up stats, you can just tell them that they don't know what they're talking about. you'd need some help with grammar though.
    First off I'm on my blackberry so its hard to type as is. Second the stats tell me that he's the best in two major catorgies. Hrs, rbis he's NUMBER 1 are they important STATS to u???? Or is batting avg against a lh pitcher more important?
    Go Birds!!!!
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