***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Howard is a good player. he's already peaked. I think he's overrated...the contract they gave him is asinine

    and I don't listen to 610...it makes people dumber[/quote]

    moronic[/quote]

    It is actually the most intelligent thing written in probably the last 5 pages of this thread.[/quote]

    really so you would consider Joey fn Votto and Prince Fielder over Ryan Howard? and if Mark Texeira was so damn good he wouldn't have been on 3 different teams already. I guess the Phils are now falling into the Eagles trap where nothing or no one is good enough for the WIP-like idiots of the world. You two guys are probably the same guys who rip Rollins and Victorino for lousy on-base percentage but chide Howard for knocking in 140+ runs a year. Use statistics only for your arguments but dismiss them when they don't show what you want.

    Joey Votto and Prince Fielder? wow wow wow - really guys?

    Joey Votto's career high in homers so far is 25 and career rbi's is 84. I guess playing for thePhils would increase his homers by 20 a year and rbi's by 60 a year.[/quote]

    dude, you're all over the place here.

    The texeira point is just plain stupid. Arod has been on 3 teams and he's pretty good. guys move around all the time in sports today.

    I said I'd consider votto and fielder, depending on whether or not you're talking long term or short term. fielder and votto both hit 300 (fielder was at 299) last year with OBP over 400. Both are younger than howard. Both make more contact than howard. All of these stats show that if you replaced howard with these players, they would have the same amount, if not more, RBI than howard does in the phils lineup.

    Rollins and howard are two completely different players. Rollins shitty OBP is far from ideal for a leadoff guy, but he makes up for that by playing outstanding defense. He also plays a premium defensive position, so there is tons of value to his defense. I would rather have seen the phils overpay to keep rollins than howard. 1B is not a difficult position to find replacement players. Stick any of those 1B I mentioned in the phils lineup and they will give you the same shiny RBI totals as howard.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    How fucking dumb do you have to be to run onto a field with pot on you?
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    pjhawks wrote:
    The Fixer wrote:

    I'd definitely take Pujols, Texeira, Cabrera, or Gonzalez over howard. And I'd seriously consider morneau, fielder, and votto (depending on whether you're talking for one year or long term).

    You keep coming with RBI. THEY ARE A PRODUCT OF A PLAYERS LINEUP!! Put Gonzalez in the phils lineup and he knocks in more runs than howard (he makes more contact, hits for a higher average, etc).

    Howard is a good player. he's already peaked. I think he's overrated...the contract they gave him is asinine

    and I don't listen to 610...it makes people dumber

    moronic

    great insight...you're brilliant
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    How fucking dumb do you have to be to run onto a field with pot on you?

    that dude was about 5 rows in front of me last night. he didn't look like the sharpest tool in the shed.

    I'm sure he's one of the fans who's impressed with howard's RBI totals
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    The Fixer wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    How fucking dumb do you have to be to run onto a field with pot on you?

    that dude was about 5 rows in front of me last night. he didn't look like the sharpest tool in the shed.

    I'm sure he's one of the fans who's impressed with howard's RBI totals

    haha, thats funny. Yeah, deadspin has a picture of him. Didn't look real brilliant. He is an aspiring DJ (34 years old) and most certaintly a gigantic fan of RBI's.

    http://deadspin.com/5531577/last-nights ... -bloodlust
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    pjhawks wrote:
    Phantom Pain wrote:
    I agree in the part about the new fans being there just to be cool and tailgate and play beer pong at the Phillies game

    Then after the game as they're walking out ask the guy next to them "Who won anyway?"

    It is annoying but it comes with winning unfortunately

    I can't say it ruins my experience going to a game like some but it is what it is

    it is annoying - i am walking in last night at 6:55 and half the parking lot looked like they were an hour away from heading into the game as they are playing beer pong, redneck horseshoes (i get this at concerts but for baseball people- really?) and grilling. and can we stop the people from taking up multiple parking spots for these stupid games. I enjoy a good tailgate but have some courtesy towards others. winning and putting up with this is still better than the alternative though.

    Hamels looked great though - has his velocity back it looks like. Lidge looked like he had his great slider (sorry put sinker 1st but was a typing mistake) as well - two huge strikeouts by him - great to see with knucklehead Madson out 2 months.

    As for ripping on Howard - see about 3 pages ago - this is what he does at times but at the end of the year the guy will have 45 or more home runs and 140 or so RBIs. the guy is a stud and will be fine. As average as this team has been so far still right there in 1st place.

    redneck horseshoes? are you talking about cornhole? because there's not a god damn thing wrong with that. sports or concert in my eyes...
    www.myspace.com
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.
    Go Birds!!!!
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    edited May 2010
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.

    now show their OBP, OPS, and BA vs LH. and we wont even talk about defense.

    If you think howard is a better hitter than cabrera you are delusional

    as for RBI...oh well, I tried. some people will just never get it
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.

    You just used 3 numbers. 3, and one most people on here argee is meaningless. If you want to use 3 numbers at least look at the triple slash stats. They will tell you a lot more.
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    jamminpearls wrote:
    The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.
    +1

    RIBS!!!!!!!!
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    all you have to do is watch the game. watch how the R6 completely carries this team on his shoulders late in the season to know why he's worth more than most of those guys mentioned. did they overpay? probably. all i know is they are going to have a player who has and will continue to put up HISTORIC numbers over the next few years. historic gentlemen. historic. and if we win another series before his contract expires---totally worth every penny.

    "just get me to the plate boys"--that's all you gotta know.
    www.myspace.com
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    The Jeagler wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    all you have to do is watch the game. watch how the R6 completely carries this team on his shoulders late in the season to know why he's worth more than most of those guys mentioned. did they overpay? probably. all i know is they are going to have a player who has and will continue to put up HISTORIC numbers over the next few years. historic gentlemen. historic. and if we win another series before his contract expires---totally worth every penny.

    "just get me to the plate boys"--that's all you gotta know.

    I guess that quote doesn't apply to World Series games
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    They why keep a fucking batting average then or ERA for that matter, or even RBI's? All they are is stats. Stats are not eveything but that is a pretty ignorant view.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    The Fixer wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    jamminpearls wrote:
    Howard 277avg 142hr 49hr. Pujulos 335ang 122rbi 41hr. Tex 297avg 114rbi 33hr. Fielder 283 110 39. Cabrera 318 115 32. Gonzalez 285 100 32. These are each players avgs since 2006. Howard is 6th in avg and 1st in both hrs and rbis. Pujulos is 1st in avg and 2nd in rbis and hrs. Tex is 3rd in avg and 4th in both rbis and hrs. Fielder is 5th in avg and rbis and 3rd in hrs. Cabrera is 2nd in avg 3rd in rbis and tied for 5th in hrs. Gonzalez is 4th in avg 6th in erbis and tied for 5th in hrs. The numbers don't lie albert is the only player who is better then howard at that posotion joey voto is a joke of a comparsion.


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    all you have to do is watch the game. watch how the R6 completely carries this team on his shoulders late in the season to know why he's worth more than most of those guys mentioned. did they overpay? probably. all i know is they are going to have a player who has and will continue to put up HISTORIC numbers over the next few years. historic gentlemen. historic. and if we win another series before his contract expires---totally worth every penny.

    "just get me to the plate boys"--that's all you gotta know.

    I guess that quote doesn't apply to World Series games

    it did in '08. unfortunately only utley came to play last year. wouldn't have even made it there had it hadnt been for his amazing wildcard and nlcs performance though.
    www.myspace.com
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    They why keep a fucking batting average then or ERA for that matter, or even RBI's? All they are is stats. Stats are not eveything but that is a pretty ignorant view.

    i dont know man. seems to me, the game got a long fine for about 120 years without sabermetrics...
    www.myspace.com
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.
    sadly you aren't to far off and shockingly i agree with the bolded part of your post. i don't understand all this xzr bullshit and hold stats or whatever else. whats more scary is gm's like the mariners gm and others use these sabermertics "stats" to sign and draft players.
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    The Jeagler wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.

    They why keep a fucking batting average then or ERA for that matter, or even RBI's? All they are is stats. Stats are not eveything but that is a pretty ignorant view.

    i dont know man. seems to me, the game got a long fine for about 120 years without sabermetrics...

    Sure it did, but why not look a bit deeper? Why not think about whats really important in a player, especially with all the great minds in the game today. At one point in time OBP was unheard of now you can't go 10 minutes watching a game without hearing about it.
  • The Fixer
    The Fixer Posts: 12,837
    metsfan wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:


    baseball is not played on a spreadsheet or in some kind of computer model. when i think of these sabermetric websites and stuff i picture geeks in lab coats behind the scenes crunching numbers with their calculators. i'm old school. baseball is more than that.
    sadly you aren't to far off and shockingly i agree with the bolded part of your post. i don't understand all this xzr bullshit and hold stats or whatever else. whats more scary is gm's like the mariners gm and others use these sabermertics "stats" to sign and draft players.

    all GMs should use sabermetrics. guys that don't like minaya and amaro, dole out ridiculous contracts to ryan howard, oliver perez, jason bay, jaime moyer, etc

    seattle's GM has had a great first year...and tampa and boston's GMs (theo epstein and andrew friedman) are probably the two biggest proponents of sabermetrics (along with billy beane in oakland). Those teams aren't bad

    sabermetrics aren't the only thing that should be used to judge a player, but to ignore them is just dumb.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    The Jeagler wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    i dont know man. seems to me, the game got a long fine for about 120 years without sabermetrics...

    Sure it did, but why not look a bit deeper? Why not think about whats really important in a player, especially with all the great minds in the game today. At one point in time OBP was unheard of now you can't go 10 minutes watching a game without hearing about it.

    believe me, i understand. and i know that it has it's merits. hearing you guys call me ignorant for not paying attention to them is funny because, to me, it sounds like you guys aren't paying attention to what actually happens on the field and the intangibles that howard brings to the phils. especially down the stretch. every year.
    www.myspace.com
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    The Fixer wrote:

    all GMs should use sabermetrics. guys that don't like minaya and amaro, dole out ridiculous contracts to ryan howard, oliver perez, jason bay, jaime moyer, etc

    seattle's GM has had a great first year...and tampa and boston's GMs are probably the two biggest proponents of sabermetrics. Those teams aren't bad

    sabermetrics aren't the only thing that should be used to judge a player, but to ignore them is just dumb.
    i'm not ignoring them i think its the "it" thing in baseball like moneyball was. one of these sabermetrics stats had daniel murphy as the 5th best defensive 1st baseman. a player whose a career minor leaguer and now doesn't have his 1st base job. what does that say bout these so called "stats".
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

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