Gay Marriage Ban

inmytree

Jasunmark wrote:

inmytree wrote:

the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....

what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?

This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."

I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).

The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.

And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.

Well, they're not.

more drama....

you know, during the commercials of the month long monster truck marathon (which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights") I saw folks rallying to vote against prop 8....to be honest, Grave Digger was on next so I didn't pay much attention...

I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...

as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...

or you can go to Iowa...

you have options...

I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P

Abookamongstthemany

inmytree wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

inmytree wrote:

the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....

what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?

This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."

I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).

The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.

And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.

Well, they're not.

more drama....

you know, during the commercials of the month long monster truck marathon (which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights") I saw folks rallying to vote against prop 8....to be honest, Grave Digger was on next so I didn't pay much attention...

I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...

as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...

or you can go to Iowa...

you have options...

I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P

Black people still had 'options' when they were forced to use separate public bathrooms, water fountains, etc....

They had the option to use the public restrooms assigned to them or go without. Just because they had 'options' doesn't make it any more right and it doesn't mean they weren't being discriminated against.

WaveCameCrashin

I think were going to see more states pass Gay Marriage even if California never passes it. The supreme court ruled it's not a civil rights issue and they are right. But at least the gay community has options as far as moving to another state if they wanted to.

Prince Of Dorkness

inmytree wrote:

(which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights")

Um, it was a slag against the stereotypical straight male. And was supposed to be a joke. Guess my comedy doesn't translate to Straight very well. How am I supposed to know where you live?

I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...

My post wasn't directly solely at you. I'll try to make that a bit more clear this time.

as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...

Well if we were a straight couple, I'd be able to sponsor him into a America and he could become a citizen which is what we both want. But because we're a gay couple, we live under the constant specter that his work Visa could be refused and we'd have to move back to Canada, destroying the life that we've set up here. Just "becoming" a citizen isn't that easy. Unless you're straight and married, of course.

And besides, the power of attorney papers you can get written up by a lawyer don't cross state lines. So if I was to come visit you in the south (hey, it could happen) we'd be totally without any protection at all should he get hit by a Monster Truck.

or you can go to Iowa...

Not a lot of work for film makers (like me) or high-end residential architects (like him) in Iowa. And I thought America was supposed to be the land of the free? Is that only where sanctioned by the government?

you have options...

but not as many as you do, and that's just not fair.

I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P

I agree. "Separate but Equal" has never worked in America. Although if you want the rights of marriage without being married, you can have a "Common Law Marriage." (Sadly, I don't get that option either).

If, however, you want to fight for the rights to have a civil union, I'm willing to help you fight for that right. I don't like injustice. So sign me up.

know1

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.

And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.

Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.

inmytree

Jasunmark wrote:

inmytree wrote:

(which I know is some sort of slight toward the south...and ironic coming from someone whining about "equal rights")

Um, it was a slag against the stereotypical straight male. And was supposed to be a joke. Guess my comedy doesn't translate to Straight very well. How am I supposed to know where you live?

I do wonder where I said I'm not gay so I don't care...I know that was tossed in for dramatic effect...

My post wasn't directly solely at you. I'll try to make that a bit more clear this time.

as for your power of attorney rant...I'm not sure if you know this, but you can see a lawyer and have one written up...oh wait, I see he's not a citizen...well, perhaps he can become one then you can be his power attorney...

Well if we were a straight couple, I'd be able to sponsor him into a America and he could become a citizen which is what we both want. But because we're a gay couple, we live under the constant specter that his work Visa could be refused and we'd have to move back to Canada, destroying the life that we've set up here. Just "becoming" a citizen isn't that easy. Unless you're straight and married, of course.

And besides, the power of attorney papers you can get written up by a lawyer don't cross state lines. So if I was to come visit you in the south (hey, it could happen) we'd be totally without any protection at all should he get hit by a Monster Truck.

or you can go to Iowa...

Not a lot of work for film makers (like me) or high-end residential architects (like him) in Iowa. And I thought America was supposed to be the land of the free? Is that only where sanctioned by the government?

you have options...

but not as many as you do, and that's just not fair.

I'm still upset I can't have a civil union with my significant lover of the opposite sex...where are my rights...?!?!?! :P

I agree. "Separate but Equal" has never worked in America. Although if you want the rights of marriage without being married, you can have a "Common Law Marriage." (Sadly, I don't get that option either).

If, however, you want to fight for the rights to have a civil union, I'm willing to help you fight for that right. I don't like injustice. So sign me up.

my friend, you make many good points, of which I can't argue...

good luck with your quest for Marriage, but be careful what you ask for, it's not all it's cracked up to be...

trust me, I know...

WaveCameCrashin

Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)

decides2dream

know1 wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.

And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.

Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.

que?
:?
:?:

the only thing about it that isn't *working* is the fact that the right of marriage is not afforded to homosexual couples...otherwise, how is legal marriage not *working* exactly......? and - again - just b/c you seem to think that the right to marry is a privilege and not a right and that it is already in existence for all, which truly, is a crock......again, doesn't make it so. once upon a time it was illegal for interracial couples to marry....now it isn't.....so yes, once again, the rights of marriage need to be broadened to include homosexuals b/c they too are 2 consenting adults being discriminated not b/c of the color of their skin, but their sexual orientation....but still, discrimination pure and simple. you don't want to see it as such, fine......

Prince Of Dorkness

inmytree wrote:

my friend, you make many good points, of which I can't argue...

good luck with your quest for Marriage, but be careful what you ask for, it's not all it's cracked up to be...

trust me, I know...

Well we've been together for 17 years and I know that after about 2, the nagging about leaving the socks on the floor gets old. Maybe one day we can have a beer about laugh about how we really aren't that different after all.

And thanks for the wish of luck. Looks like we're still going to need it.

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.

Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.

huh? lack of government involvement if you will, is what's not working. and by that, I mean not allowing gays to marry. and all adults do NOT have the privilege to marry. marriage is ONLY allowed (legally) between a man and woman. gay people do not have the same rights.

not gonna lie buddy, but you seem awfully confused about the situation.

Prince Of Dorkness

prfctlefts wrote:

Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)

Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.

The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?

jlew24asu

Jasunmark wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)

Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.

The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?

excuse my ignorance, but you and your partner can have joint bank accounts? what are the tax implications?

decides2dream

Jasunmark wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Aint that the truth cos say it doesn't work out.At least you can just walk away if your not married (generaly speaking)

Well we can't. we own a house, a car, two dogs and have joint bank accounts. All the loans are in both our names and we only own one set of knives and beer glasses.

The only thing that one of us owns that the other doesn't is our motorcycles because I bought his for his birthday a few years ago. And what am I going to do with two motorcycles?

exactly.
i always love that 'argument'...like it's a *plus*. :roll:
obviously if it were and what people wanted, they wouldn't be fighting for the right to marry, eh?
i know my bro-in-law is anti-marriage, so he and and his long-term GF, of over 20+ years...jumped thru a million legal loops, spent a good amount of $$$...to co-own a home, make each other their beneficiaries, protect their assets, etc, etc.....and then they did split, and it's actually MORE complicated b/c they are not married to get things rolling and seperate, etc. obviously, most people go into marriage or long-term relations hoping they won't end, thus why they join together in the first place......so yea, the whole 'it makes it easier'.....is only true perhaps if you don't own one single thing of value together, and sure...if you don't actually want to share your material goods, as well as health care decisions, etc. you definitely seem to know even MORe about all the rights marriage affords, especially since you know exactly what not being married has you lacking......and absolutely, imo, marriage is about making it *easier* in a sense to share your life, fully, every aspect, that you want to, both good and bad...

Prince Of Dorkness

jlew24asu wrote:

excuse my ignorance, but you and your partner can have joint bank accounts? what are the tax implications?

I mean, you can have a join bank account with anyone. The motorcycles are in my name because he was newer to America and we'd have gotten a higher interest rate if he was on the title. Go figure.

You're taxed on what you make.. not on what you have. So having join bank accounts isn't really that big a deal. Maybe a bit more paperwork come tax time. Not even sure about that, though.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.

Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.

So is schooling... it's a privilege, not a right. But it is not acceptable to offer that privilege to some and then deny it to others. Separate but equal is inherently wrong and unequal. You can't say blacks were wrong to whine about segregation because they had the same privilege of school attendance, it was just a different building. That is why gay marriage bans or civil unions aren't enough. Would you be ok with denying all gay people the option to attend a public school, on the basis that school is a privilege not a right?

know1

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

And I can't understand why someone would accept the status quo from government if it isn't working.

Again - all adults in this country already do have the privilege (because it's not really a right) to marry if they choose to.

So is schooling... it's a privilege, not a right. But it is not acceptable to offer that privilege to some and then deny it to others. Separate but equal is inherently wrong and unequal. You can't say blacks were wrong to whine about segregation because they had the same privilege of school attendance, it was just a different building. That is why gay marriage bans or civil unions aren't enough. Would you be ok with denying all gay people the option to attend a public school, on the basis that school is a privilege not a right?

(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)

No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.

Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)

No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.

Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.

Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?

Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.

know1

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)

No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.

Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.

Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?

Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.

know1

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

(I'm playing devil's advocate on some of this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage)

No I wouldn't be OK with banning gay people from attending public schools, but that is completely different.

Can you tell me that a gay person is banned from marrying in this country? If they choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, they can get married just like I can if I choose to marry someone from the opposite sex. They are not banned from marrying and they have the same rights technically speaking.

Then for the sake of devil's advocacy, how is it completely different? School and marriage are both privileges, not rights. Why is it ok to exclude people from one and not the other?

Comparing again to schools, you get to pick your school of choice. Gay people cannot pick their partner of choice. That's why your point about equal rights to marry the opposite sex doesn't hold water. It SOUNDS good and logical, but it's not. By the same equally lame brand of logic I could say you have a right to marry a woman that other men have, but not other women. So your right to marry a woman is denied to women, thus not equal. Not very convincing is it? Because it's inherently arbitrary... you're starting from the point that only opposite sex partnerships deserve recognition, which is a moral judgment call the government has no business making, just as the government should not be saying white males are the only ones that deserve schooling, and so other groups should be left out of the "privilege" of a public education.

I'm simply saying we all have the same rights currently. We can all marry someone from the opposite sex.

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

I'm simply saying we all have the same rights currently. We can all marry someone from the opposite sex.

but that is so completely irrelevant to this debate. dont u get that?