Gay Marriage Ban

inmytree

no matter what one believes about gay marriage....the people of California voted...and sometimes democracy doesn't always go the way one wants it to go...

Prince Of Dorkness

inmytree wrote:

no matter what one believes about gay marriage....the people of California voted...and sometimes democracy doesn't always go the way one wants it to go...

I'm sorry, but no.

The Majority should NEVER be given the chance to vote away the rights of a minority. I mean.. they came for me first... are they coming for you next? Don't think it can't happen. Because now they have a legal precedence that they can force a vote to remove ANY rights at all. From anyone in the minority.

You think they chose us homos first by accident? 'Cause they didn't. This is just the beginning. They're not going to stop here.

Anon

Save the drama and stop acting like you are the only demographic group not having things go their way. EVERYONE has something that they want but can't have because the government denies it. Stop voting for the same people over and over and maybe things will change.

And they didn't 'come for you' first.

Prince Of Dorkness

JB811 wrote:

EVERYONE has something that they want but can't have because the government denies it.

Really?

Funny, because I don't see straight, white, Christian, heterosexual men being denied anything. In fact, I see them being handed a lot of it on a silver platter.

And in this case, they DID come for us first. It's been reported that the Mormons and Catholics started planning this 10 years ago. They chose to go after the rights of gay people first since it would be so easy to get people to vote against us.

I'm kinda surprised that the conspiracy people didn't know that.

Anon

What about the blacks in the 60's and the Jews before that? I think they were a little more oppressed.

I'm white, male, and straight. The government does many things with my money that I don't approve of, plus I'm one that believes in the Constitution. These last two administrations have been assaulting that every day.

So you are gay, big deal. I don't care. My point was that the government has too much control and it only seems to bother some people when they can't do what THEY want.

Prince Of Dorkness

JB811 wrote:

What about the blacks in the 60's and the Jews before that? I think they were a little more oppressed.

That would be up for debate. As a gay person I can't sponsor my husband into America as my spouse. I can't list him as "next of kin" and when one of us dies, the government gets 25% of everything that we've amassed over the 17 years that we've been together. There are over 1000 rights that we don't have that you do but "big deal," right?

I'm not totally up on my history but I don't think that's ever been something that any other group has had blocked from them.

JB811 wrote:

it only seems to bother some people when they can't do what THEY want.

But you pretty much sum up the major problem. It's all gotta be about you. It's all about your little problems. Look, I agree that taxes are misspent and I agree that there are big problems with government control. But that's not what we're talking about.

Since YOU are not gay, as soon as I stand up for myself I'm told to "cut the drama" or "big deal." You only want me to care about something if it matters to YOU. It doesn't effect you... so you don't care. You only care about something if it knocks on YOUR little front door. And when it does... I wonder who will be left to stand up for you.

Anon

You aren't getting it. I called you on your claims that gays were the first which I totally disagree with. I listed two other groups that were murdered by the thousands, perhaps millions, because of their religious belief or the color of their skin.

I don't care that you are gay. Seriously you are taking that to the wrong path. My point was that there are people that only complain when they can't do their thing. And I have to point out that my family built their savings through hard work and now when my father passes I'll have to pay an inheritance tax. So that is more government being where they should not be. Just as they would take your money should you die.

I'm of firm belief that the government should not be limiting anyone that obeys the law and pay taxes on what they can or can not do. That is why I said that I don't care about you being gay. I don't think the government should have this say. We are all adults.

Some day the people are going to stand together against ALL politicians.

Prince Of Dorkness

No, YOU'RE not getting it. Gay people are the first on the hit list that the Mormons have. They had a very concentrated effort over the last ten years to take away our rights here.

I never said you should care that I'm gay. I don't care that you don't care. I don't care about you personally at all. I care about my rights. Which I'm now told can be taken away if the majority wants it that way. And you seem to think that me standing up for myself is "drama." (you sure you're not gay? I've never heard a straight man use that term before.)

Yes, there are other groups that have also felt the tyranny of the majority. But they no longer do.

Furthermore, your lack of grasp of inheritance laws is typical. Yes.. you will pay an inheritance tax on what your father leaves you.. but not what your SPOUSE leaves you (kind of, it's a little more involved than that). I don't have that protection or over 1,000 other rights, protections and privileges. But apparently, since it doesn't effect you, it's just "big deal." You'd rather I focused on something that would help YOU out.

Like I said before, you only care if it effects you.

You know that if I was in a car accident and was comatose, my husband wouldn't be allowed into the hospital room to see me? Or make medical decisions for me? Nor would he be the one to say it's time to pull the plug? He wouldn't even be able to be my advocate and give my wishes about organ donation... to the government, he's just the guy who shares rent with me.

But you don't care about that because it doesn't effect you. You only want me to vote for an independent candidate and that's pretty much it.

And sorry... apparently if I don't stand up for my family.. nobody else is going to.

Prince Of Dorkness

And actually.. that's not even really fair.

I can see the the majority of the people even here at the Pearl Jam Fan Forum are on my side even if they're not gay. It's just those "I hate all government" people who seem to think... I'm not sure... do you think anything?

Commy

Jasunmark wrote:

And actually.. that's not even really fair.

I can see the the majority of the people even here at the Pearl Jam Fan Forum are on my side even if they're not gay. It's just those "I hate all government" people who seem to think... I'm not sure... do you think anything?

i think we are in the middle of a struggle. like in the 20's with workers rights. like with wome'sn right to vote. or during the 70's and the civil rights movement.

its only a matter of time Jasun, before gay marriage is legal. but we been to make it happen. its rare rights are given by the state, they must be taken.

Prince Of Dorkness

Oh you're very right there.

But I read a great article in the SFGate..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

"Let us hereby be reminded, before sadness and frustration overwhelm once more: Proposition 8 and its ilk are merely the last, fitful gasps of a long-dying ideology, markers of a certain kind of sad, conservative desperation. They are the final clawings and scrapings of a reactionary worldview that attempts to outlaw and punish all it cannot, will not understand. Same as it ever was, really."

inmytree

Jasunmark wrote:

inmytree wrote:

no matter what one believes about gay marriage....the people of California voted...and sometimes democracy doesn't always go the way one wants it to go...

I'm sorry, but no.

The Majority should NEVER be given the chance to vote away the rights of a minority. I mean.. they came for me first... are they coming for you next? Don't think it can't happen. Because now they have a legal precedence that they can force a vote to remove ANY rights at all. From anyone in the minority.

You think they chose us homos first by accident? 'Cause they didn't. This is just the beginning. They're not going to stop here.

save the drama...you act as if gays have been tossed in the gulag...

the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....

this is just a stupid issue for both sides to really care about...personally, I'm upset that I can't have a Civil Union unless it's with the member of the same sex...I want to entire a Civil Union with my girlfriend but the state won't let me....oh gawwwd, what am I going to do....???? how can I live like this, my rights are being denied.... :evil:

know1

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

Abookamongstthemany

I don't care for marriage and the importance so many seem to place on it. And so many of us that post here on AMT seem to be more of the unconventional types so maybe this view of marriage as being so important doesn't hit home for some of us. But that doesn't change the fact that, in our current society, marriage is still viewed as the ultimate show of love, maturity and commitment that a couple can act upon. That is the reality of the situation no matter how silly I might personally view marriage. So yes, it seems very unfair to only allow one certain type of couple the right to marriage while excluding others who would like to get married for all the same reasons straight people choose to get married but are denied simply because they don't fit the mold of acceptance to do so. Just ask any married person about the memories of their wedding day, the importance of taking their vows before their personal God and what their marriage means to them then you'll find all the reasons why it's simply wrong to deny any couple in love the ability to engage in the same act, with all the same meaning and importance that society still associates with it. If a civil union is the same then why have it and call it something different. It's not the same and we know it thus gay couples are being discriminated against by denying them the right based solely on their personal choices which of course harm no one and have no negative effects on society.

know1

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

So why can't the government change that to allow people to file jointly with one other person of their choosing and not call it marriage?

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

So why can't the government change that to allow people to file jointly with one other person of their choosing and not call it marriage?

lol fine by me (and I'm sure with gay people too) what do you want to call it? civil union? great who cares what its called. its still not allowed.

whitepants

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I don't care for marriage and the importance so many seem to place on it. And so many of us that post here on AMT seem to be more of the unconventional types so maybe this view of marriage as being so important doesn't hit home for some of us. But that doesn't change the fact that, in our current society, marriage is still viewed as the ultimate show of love, maturity and commitment that a couple can act upon. That is the reality of the situation no matter how silly I might personally view marriage. So yes, it seems very unfair to only allow one certain type of couple the right to marriage while excluding others who would like to get married for all the same reasons straight people choose to get married but are denied simply because they don't fit the mold of acceptance to do so. Just ask any married person about the memories of their wedding day, the importance of taking their vows before their personal God and what their marriage means to them then you'll find all the reasons why it's simply wrong to deny any couple in love the ability to engage in the same act, with all the same meaning and importance that society still associates with it. If a civil union is the same then why have it and call it something different. It's not the same and we know it thus gay couples are being discriminated against by denying them the right based solely on their personal choices which of course harm no one and have no negative effects on society.

Preach it sister! Amen!

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

The fact is that everyone really already has the same right - to marry someone of consenting age and of the opposite sex if they choose to. I'm not saying being gay is a choice, but marriage is definitely a choice...and a choice that involves agreement by another person.

My opinion is the government should get out of sponsoring/sanctioning marriages completely.

Outside of that, I'm not for or against gay marriage, but I haven't heard logical arguments from either side on the issue to sway me.

what don't you understand about the Federal tax system? gay people can't file jointly. thats just one thing they aren't allowed. I know you hate the federal government and want them out of everything but you are sidestepping the issue here by saying you dont want the government involved in marriage. well they are, and there is no way around that.

thank you.
i find it annoying when the only *answer* offered is the government has no business in marriage. well ya know what? they do and they ARE involved...so let's deal in reality, eh? secondly, it's really convenient when people say to "get over it" or "what's the big deal"...when it doesn't affect them. hmmmm......why didn't interracial couples get over it or not see it's not a big deal? seriously. it's the SAME THING - discrimination pure and simple. two consenting adults wanting to marry. and there ARE a plethora of rights, most of which we all take for granted that come along with getting married, thus why the 'institution' has survived so long, and also why homosexuals want, and DESERVE the rights of legal marriage.

Prince Of Dorkness

inmytree wrote:

the funny thing is, I didn't see any pro gay marriage folks complaining about prop 8 being on the ballot...suddenly, when it didn't pass it was riot time....

what are you talking about? We raised over 30 million dollars, we had HUGE protests, we had a giant campaign, we had a gigantic reaction before the election. You missed that? Was Monster Truck having a TV marathon that month or something?

This idea that I have the right to marry a woman if I want is mean-spirited and insulting. I've been with my husband for 17 years. We've built a whole life together and I think we deserve the same rights and protections that Britney Spears can get by staggering drunk into a chapel in Vegas. Please don't tell me your solution is "leave him and find some random woman to shack up with to protect the sanctity of marriage."

I should be able to sponsor him into the country as my spouse. I should be his next of kin, I should have power of attorney over his affairs. I should be allowed into the hospital room if he's dying (Right now I could be arrested if I tried to get in and the hospital didn't want me in there.. don't say it can't happen.. it happens all the time).

The whole argument that we should have a separate "thing" for gay people makes me want to break bones. Personally, I'd be fine with that... but that's denied to us too.

And yes.. every time I stand up for myself or my family, some Jackass has to say "Oh, cut the drama" or "big deal... I'm not gay so I don't care" or "how come I can't have a civil union too?" and acts like my rights are just a big joke.

Well, they're not.