What is it like to be attractive?

Cinnamon Girl

iluvcats wrote:

If I could eat salt (not allowed) I would pop a bag of pop corn. Sure would be good for reading this interesting thread

I wonder if the original poster ever came back?

Agreed! I can't stay away from this thread.

Who Princess

Cinnamon Girl wrote:

iluvcats wrote:

If I could eat salt (not allowed) I would pop a bag of pop corn. Sure would be good for reading this interesting thread

I wonder if the original poster ever came back?

Agreed! I can't stay away from this thread.

I know! I can't believe it's still active. I feel kinda bad for the OP.

_

soulsinging wrote:

JordyWordy wrote:

Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)

there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.

and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...

Everyone keeps harping on the make up, where did I ever say women can't leave the house without perfect make up? What do you say to shaving the legs? You cool with your girl having hairier legs than you? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. To me, it's a combination of a laziness/insecurity/attitude thing. I still don't see why it's perfectly ok for her to say "he has to pull his financial weight like I do" but utterly unreasonable for me to say "she has to make an effort to look nice like I do."

Nobody ever said you had to make an effort to look nice, though.

And being capable of feeding oneself is something everyone should do indepent of whether or not they are in a relationship & regardless of social standards. They don't have to be able to take care of themselves financially FOR ME - and THEY don't have to take care of ME - they just have to not expect ME to take care of THEM. I don't understand why you seem so unable to comprehend that difference. Your attempted analogy might make more sense if the woman expected the man to actually financially support her - but his desire to mooch off of her instead of being able to feed himself is certainly not analogous to her not shaving her legs.

I used to have a boyfriend who, once he moved in with me, quit his job and layed around on the couch all day while I struggled to pay all the bills, feed him, buy his clothes, etc. and he had no concern whatsoever where our next meal was coming from - it was all up to me to figure out and take care of. All I meant by my original statement was that I don't want to be in this situation ever again. (If he becomes disabled or something, that's a different story.) You can't really believe that his actions were justified by me not shaving my legs. (Besides, how could I find the time to shave while working my ass off all the time??)

Also, you seem to be going back and forth about whether people are supposed to meet social standards or whether they're supposed to want to do what it takes to please their partners. You said a woman not shaving her legs is unacceptable because it's inconsiderate of your desires, and yet you're only willing to conform to social norms and not to your partner's desires. That sounds totally hypocritical to me.

_

soulsinging wrote:

So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?

Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.

It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?

Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.

I shave them cos it's not only men who like the feel of them who the hell said 'I will never, ever shave my legs cos it's blah blah blah'? I've said I shave them the odd time, if you're talking about SCB, talk to SCB. You insinuated that if she started shaving less and less that you'd leave her... I'm calling bullshit on that one unless you never really loved her anyway. I guess, like everything, there's a happy medium... once I don't offend anyone by having a bad hair day ON MY LEGS or by being lazy about wearing make up... well then we're all happy??? :? or something!

I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good. I just think that's an awful thing to say. And generally by 'everyone' in that comment, we mean women! How many greasy women with combovers advance to directoral levels in companies? Women are expected to look good and men are expected to bring home the bacon. However, there are plenty of men who can look good and don't earn a penny... how many women earn more than the average male and still look like crap? Women are just expected to do it ALL these days. It's just all going out of control... you certainly have mellowed on some of your opinions in this thread, as have I. Everyone should do the same.

Heineken Helen

scb wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?

Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.

It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....

Agreed! You don't need a sword and shield to say 'nope, I ain't shaving this week'

by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off but I caved anyway cos I like the feel of my legs being smoothe... he didn't cave so... who's being inconsiderate? And yet neither of us have left the other... despite this 'epic battle'

_

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good.

And that everyone "needs help" to meet this standard because there's no such thing as natural beauty...

soulsinging

scb wrote:

Nobody ever said you had to make an effort to look nice, though.

And being capable of feeding oneself is something everyone should do indepent of whether or not they are in a relationship & regardless of social standards. They don't have to be able to take care of themselves financially FOR ME - and THEY don't have to take care of ME - they just have to not expect ME to take care of THEM. I don't understand why you seem so unable to comprehend that difference. Your attempted analogy might make more sense if the woman expected the man to actually financially support her - but his desire to mooch off of her instead of being able to feed himself is certainly not analogous to her not shaving her legs.

I used to have a boyfriend who, once he moved in with me, quit his job and layed around on the couch all day while I struggled to pay all the bills, feed him, buy his clothes, etc. and he had no concern whatsoever where our next meal was coming from - it was all up to me to figure out and take care of. All I meant by my original statement was that I don't want to be in this situation ever again. (If he becomes disabled or something, that's a different story.) You can't really believe that his actions were justified by me not shaving my legs. (Besides, how could I find the time to shave while working my ass off all the time??)

Also, you seem to be going back and forth about whether people are supposed to meet social standards or whether they're supposed to want to do what it takes to please their partners. You said a woman not shaving her legs is unacceptable because it's inconsiderate of your desires, and yet you're only willing to conform to social norms and not to your partner's desires. That sounds totally hypocritical to me.

And you're obsessing over money as bad if not worse than I obsess over making an effort to look nice for one's partner. You see? We both have things we find important in another mate. You don't want a lazy bum that can't support himself financially and I don't want a lazy woman that can't be bothered to try and look nice. You COULD provide for him, but you don't want to. And I COULD date such a woman, but I don't want to. That is my point... we all have standards. You're just saying that MY standards are wrong and yours are right, which is ridiculous and self-serving.

I never said he was justified in not working just because you didn't shave your legs. I'm saying you're justified in having a problem with him not working, and he is justified in being turned off by you not shaving your legs. They have nothing to do with each other, they are just two examples of the many ways we evaluate our mates and whether or not they meet our needs and desires for an ideal partner. There is nothing wrong with either of them and I never said there was. YOU are the one claiming that there IS something wrong with one of them while denying that there is any hypocrisy in saying that your utterly subjective standards are reasonable and somebody else's utterly subjective standards are not. If you make enough money to support two people, then there is no need for him to work. But you want him to because you don't like the idea of paying his way. That is a CHOICE based on your values. You can argue all you want about how reasonable it is. Sure it's reasonable. The point is it is still subjective. Plenty of men and women have no problem being the sole breadwinner and supporting a spouse/so. You do. That is your prerogative and you're entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to whatever standards I desire in a mate, be they making an effort to look nice or having three legs and psychic powers.

And there is nothing contradictory in what I said about social norms vs. pleasing a partner. I've never said a woman has to be perfect 100% of the time. I've said I think people in relationships should be willing to make reasonable sacrifices in order to make their partner happy. If they love them so much and think they're so special, they should try and if the partner loves them they should not have a problem when they fall short. Thus, you don't freak out when she has a few rough days and can't shave her legs. But it is reasonable to ask that she make an effort to do it when she can because it feels nice. However, asking her to shave her head could subject her to ridicule and that's not reasonable. Thus, if a girl prefers I don't grow a beard, I don't grow one. It's reasonable. If she prefers I shave my legs, that's going to be a problem because she's not just asking me to inconvenience myself for her, she's asking me to humiliate myself for her. That crosses the line.

soulsinging

Heineken Helen wrote:

I shave them cos it's not only men who like the feel of them who the hell said 'I will never, ever shave my legs cos it's blah blah blah'? I've said I shave them the odd time, if you're talking about SCB, talk to SCB. You insinuated that if she started shaving less and less that you'd leave her... I'm calling bullshit on that one unless you never really loved her anyway. I guess, like everything, there's a happy medium... once I don't offend anyone by having a bad hair day ON MY LEGS or by being lazy about wearing make up... well then we're all happy??? :? or something!

I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good. I just think that's an awful thing to say. And generally by 'everyone' in that comment, we mean women! How many greasy women with combovers advance to directoral levels in companies? Women are expected to look good and men are expected to bring home the bacon. However, there are plenty of men who can look good and don't earn a penny... how many women earn more than the average male and still look like crap? Women are just expected to do it ALL these days. It's just all going out of control... you certainly have mellowed on some of your opinions in this thread, as have I. Everyone should do the same.

scb did. And yes, if a girl I was with said she refused to ever shave her legs again, I'd probably go. Sexual attraction is part of a relationship and if I get turned off every time I touch her leg, that's going to be a problem and kill intimacy. I like shaved legs because, as you admit, they feel nice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that being among the things I consider in a mate. If I was into groping hairy legs... I'd not be talking about my problems with women, if you know what I mean.

As to the professional world, that's a whole different debate. I agree that there are problems in the workplace and I would say it's bullshit if you're refusing to promote some woman because she doesn't shave her legs. But I'm not talking about who I want to be the boss in my company, I'm talking about whose legs I want wrapped around me at night... and I prefer soft, smooth female legs to hairy man legs. I guess that makes me some sort of incredibly shallow asshole :roll:

soulsinging

Heineken Helen wrote:

scb wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?

Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.

It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....

Agreed! You don't need a sword and shield to say 'nope, I ain't shaving this week'

by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off but I caved anyway cos I like the feel of my legs being smoothe... he didn't cave so... who's being inconsiderate? And yet neither of us have left the other... despite this 'epic battle'

He's being inconsiderate. But it's obviously not a dealbreaker for you. And if even you don't like letting your legs get hairy, can you blame him for feeling the same way?

soulsinging

scb wrote:

You know what I find funny, Helen? Soulsinging talks such big talk, but I bet if it came down to it he'd jump at the chance to sleep with either one of us - shaved legs or not.

:roll: Are you Stuart Smalley's sister?

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

Agreed! You don't need a sword and shield to say 'nope, I ain't shaving this week'

by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off but I caved anyway cos I like the feel of my legs being smoothe... he didn't cave so... who's being inconsiderate? And yet neither of us have left the other... despite this 'epic battle'

He's being inconsiderate. But it's obviously not a dealbreaker for you. And if even you don't like letting your legs get hairy, can you blame him for feeling the same way?

HE didn't say anything about my legs.. I did thinking it might be comparable to his goatee irritating my skin... but it's obviously not a dealbreaker for him. He laughed when I said I wouldn't shave them... he didn't say he was leaving me