I like to look nice at times but I find it's got more of an impact if it's only on occasion. If you wear make up every day, it becomes part of your face... I went through a make up phase for a while and then felt horrible when I didn't wear it... even though I was quite happy beforehand so I stopped wearing it. I wasn't wearing any makeup when I met my boyfriend and, looking back on the pics of that night, I looked like shit... but he didn't think so
I love my boyfriend but somehow I manage to impress him by just being me :shock: I'm not lying... we're all different soulsinging. There's no point working to impress somebody cos you can't keep it up and that's when the relationship dies. Sure it IS work... but we're not working to simply impress eachother. We're working to ENJOY eachother
I couldn't go out with somebody with your standards... not cos I don't meet them but because I want somebody to love me for ALL of me... not cos I'm a trophy or make them look good or something... that's not much of a basis for a relationship.
Oh and that fat slob might find another fat slob to love her and make her happy just as the shallow hals find eachother.
I don't think you have any idea what my standards are. I'm not dating super models and never have. My ex is the hottest woman I ever saw, but everyone who's seen her picture admits she's very pretty but nothing special. I'm not exactly Don Juan myself and I don't expect the women I date to be Marilyn Monroe.
As to the fat slob... thanks for proving my point. He can meet someone on his level. But YOU wouldn't be willing to roll in the hay with him... because looks DO matter.
I don't think you have any idea what my standards are. I'm not dating super models and never have. My ex is the hottest woman I ever saw, but everyone who's seen her picture admits she's very pretty but nothing special. I'm not exactly Don Juan myself and I don't expect the women I date to be Marilyn Monroe.
As to the fat slob... thanks for proving my point. He can meet someone on his level. But YOU wouldn't be willing to roll in the hay with him... because looks DO matter.
I never said they don't matter... they just don't matter as much as YOU think they do. And we were discussing how everyone SHOULD put loadsa effort into looking as good as they can... I think that's a loada bollox.
Interesting you say Marilyn Monroe as an example of attractive... if she were around today, she'd be too fat to get any work :shock:
And for the fat slob, fat doesn't put me off... I'm not into slobs though... see it's the personality that matters.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I'm a realist... not a hypotheticalist Ed's a fantasy. It would never happen. Although when I go on dates, I do make an effort to look good... cos we usually go somewhere nice. I never said I'm AGAINST wearing make up or dressing up... I actually enjoy dressing up but I do it when I want to or to please me not cos I think it's something that SHOULD be done. I also think society continuing to tell people they have to look good if they wanna find someone rather than focussing on finding someone whose personality will complement theirs is just silly. Sure usually people are attracted to eachother initially cos of looks... but you need to get ON if you wanna stay together. You and Pam just seem to be trying to push the idea that looks are everything... they're far from it.
I don't think that's remotely what either of us has been pushing. What we've been saying is that looks do matter and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no shame or vanity is wanting to look good and appreciating or desiring good looks in others. It's as valid a component of attraction and relationships as any other. Nothing is indispensable... There are certain levels of bitchiness or air-headedness I couldn't live with, no matter how hot a woman is. Likewise, there are certain levels of ugly I couldn't live with, no matter how wonderful a person someone is, because sex and passion are important parts of the relationships I have. There are certain levels of joblessness scb can't live with.
You don't call people snobbish class-ists for insisting the guys they date have jobs. You don't call people demanding perfectionists for wanting a certain kind of personality. And you shouldn't call people "Shallow Hals" for wanting to date someone they find physically attractive.
I don't think you have any idea what my standards are. I'm not dating super models and never have. My ex is the hottest woman I ever saw, but everyone who's seen her picture admits she's very pretty but nothing special. I'm not exactly Don Juan myself and I don't expect the women I date to be Marilyn Monroe.
As to the fat slob... thanks for proving my point. He can meet someone on his level. But YOU wouldn't be willing to roll in the hay with him... because looks DO matter.
I never said they don't matter... they just don't matter as much as YOU think they do. And we were discussing how everyone SHOULD put loadsa effort into looking as good as they can... I think that's a loada bollox.
Interesting you say Marilyn Monroe as an example of attractive... if she were around today, she'd be too fat to get any work :shock:
And for the fat slob, fat doesn't put me off... I'm not into slobs though... see it's the personality that matters.
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
Then I'm pretty sure you are wrong, because I'm not trying to be argumentative. That is exactly what you've been writing as far as I can tell. The guy has to put his own $ into the relationship, but the girl should never have to do anything to try to look attractive.
And since you liked saying my views on sex outside a relationship go both ways, your views on attractiveness go both ways too? I'd post an example I have in mind, but I'm pretty sure I'd get banned. Suffice to say, I suspect there are things you'd never consider doing for this man, no matter how great a guy he is:
Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)
there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.
and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
Lol ok, so now if she doesn't shave her legs she's being inconsiderate, stubborn and bitchy? I'm guessing you may never have really been in love. When you love somebody you still find them attractive if they've got the cold, even if their eyes are puffy and they've got snot running from their nose. I guess it's quite hard to explain but once you fall in love with somebody's personality, why would you WANT them to wear make up? It sounds a bit weird to me. You speak as if this is human nature and everybody's like that. I think there are enough of us refuting this to say otherwise. Sure, there are PLENTY of people who need 'their woman to look good, perhaps it's some kinda insecurity or something? But there are also plenty of people who love what they've got and wouldn't change a thing.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
Lol ok, so now if she doesn't shave her legs she's being inconsiderate, stubborn and bitchy? I'm guessing you may never have really been in love. When you love somebody you still find them attractive if they've got the cold, even if their eyes are puffy and they've got snot running from their nose. I guess it's quite hard to explain but once you fall in love with somebody's personality, why would you WANT them to wear make up? It sounds a bit weird to me. You speak as if this is human nature and everybody's like that. I think there are enough of us refuting this to say otherwise. Sure, there are PLENTY of people who need 'their woman to look good, perhaps it's some kinda insecurity or something? But there are also plenty of people who love what they've got and wouldn't change a thing.
MY husband hates when I wear lipstick because he says he likes my lips bare....
And so the lion fell in love with the lamb...,"
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
MY husband hates when I wear lipstick because he says he likes my lips bare....
Lol, the bf ain't a fan of lip gloss either... I usually warn him before I put it on cos a few times he's kissed me straight away and gets it on him
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
...No one has natural beauty, there is no such thing!
I SO don't agree with this. My girlfriend barely uses makeup, and she's gorgeous all the time. You could say that I'm biased, and I am, but I'm not the only one saying it... people who don't know her tell me how she has this "natural beauty" to her. Obviously when we're going to a party or there's a special event going on, she puts on make up and all that and she looks stunning, but I love her looks without makeup and I'm 100% sure it's all about natural beauty.
I think smiling is the best makeup anyone could wear.
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
Lol ok, so now if she doesn't shave her legs she's being inconsiderate, stubborn and bitchy? I'm guessing you may never have really been in love. When you love somebody you still find them attractive if they've got the cold, even if their eyes are puffy and they've got snot running from their nose. I guess it's quite hard to explain but once you fall in love with somebody's personality, why would you WANT them to wear make up? It sounds a bit weird to me. You speak as if this is human nature and everybody's like that. I think there are enough of us refuting this to say otherwise. Sure, there are PLENTY of people who need 'their woman to look good, perhaps it's some kinda insecurity or something? But there are also plenty of people who love what they've got and wouldn't change a thing.
I was simply pointing out that it's a cop out to claim that the physical looks of that fat guy is only repulsive to you because you ascribe it to some defect in his personality. It's a blatant attempt to avoid having to admit he's fat and you'd never sleep with him because he's physically disgusting.
I loved it when my ex wore no make up and she was hot even when sick. But refusing to shave your legs is gross, sorry. That I would not have been ok with and I'd have had a problem with it... she had such great legs too! And yes, if you refuse to shave your legs because you're that obsessed with how unfair society is to you and you're that angry and stubborn... then you're not for me. I hate hipsters and other people that make such a focused effort to "buck the man." It's like someone standing on a sinking ship and going "fuck no I'm not putting on a life jacket, I'm not letting this fucking water tell me what to do!" Suck it up, quit your whining, and deal with it.
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
So if your girlfriend wants you to shave your legs, balls, chest, face, head, or whatever else... would you do it? And, if not, would that make you stubborn and bitchy?
Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)
there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.
and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...
Great post (but, no, soulsinging hasn't figured out what I meant).
I was simply pointing out that it's a cop out to claim that the physical looks of that fat guy is only repulsive to you because you ascribe it to some defect in his personality. It's a blatant attempt to avoid having to admit he's fat and you'd never sleep with him because he's physically disgusting.
I loved it when my ex wore no make up and she was hot even when sick. But refusing to shave your legs is gross, sorry. That I would not have been ok with and I'd have had a problem with it... she had such great legs too! And yes, if you refuse to shave your legs because you're that obsessed with how unfair society is to you and you're that angry and stubborn... then you're not for me. I hate hipsters and other people that make such a focused effort to "buck the man." It's like someone standing on a sinking ship and going "fuck no I'm not putting on a life jacket, I'm not letting this fucking water tell me what to do!" Suck it up, quit your whining, and deal with it.
:? who said anything about not shaving my legs to prove some kinda point? I DO shave my legs, not that it's any of your business but when I can be bothered. If my bf said 'shave your legs or it's a dealbreaker' well I'm sorry, I'd laugh in his face hysterically til I know if he's serious or not... and then when I find out he's serious, I'd just walk out. It's not about me being angry... I don't say 'I'm too angry to shave my legs today' nor do I say 'I'm too stubborn to shave my legs today' I shave them when I want... he knows better than to complain... if he said 'shave your legs woman' well then yes, perhaps I WOULD be stubborn.. actually undoubtedly I would... but I think that would be acceptable in that situation... the day he starts dictating my appearance :shock: well that's the day he loses his balls
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
So if your girlfriend wants you to shave your legs, balls, chest, face, head, or whatever else... would you do it? And, if not, would that make you stubborn and bitchy?
All but the legs. A guy with shaved legs violates too many social norms and I don't need my friends making cracks about it constantly. If your guy asked you to shave your head, I'd say you'd be justified telling him to piss off for the same reason.
Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)
there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.
and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...
Everyone keeps harping on the make up, where did I ever say women can't leave the house without perfect make up? What do you say to shaving the legs? You cool with your girl having hairier legs than you? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. To me, it's a combination of a laziness/insecurity/attitude thing. People act like I've been saying women revolt me if they're not doused in make up. But that's par for the course when insecure people hear this topic.
It's one thing to have those days where you roll out of bed and just don't have it in you to lift a finger. You gargle mouthwash instead of brushing, fuck the hair, throw on the fat sweatpants, and go through the motions. That's cool. But if you do that EVERY SINGLE day, yeah, I have a problem with that. To me it indicates 1) entitlement and 2) laziness and sloth. Entitlement because she demands I call her sexy without any effort on her part to be appealing. Would people here be ok if I told a girl "fuck you bitch, I will never acknowledge your birthday, give you a flower or gift of any kind, compliment you, or even be nice to you. But you should still love me and think I'm hot despite it because that's who I am." Of course not, it's fucking absurd. She's SHOULD feel like I don't care about her under those circumstances. If I think she's special, I should make an effort to make her feel special. If I'm never willing to lift a finger to do so, then it's only wise for her to think "maybe he doesn't care about me at all." That's all I'm saying.
I still don't see why it's perfectly ok for her to say "he has to pull his financial weight like I do" but utterly unreasonable for me to say "she has to make an effort to look nice like I do."
:? who said anything about not shaving my legs to prove some kinda point? I DO shave my legs, not that it's any of your business but when I can be bothered. If my bf said 'shave your legs or it's a dealbreaker' well I'm sorry, I'd laugh in his face hysterically til I know if he's serious or not... and then when I find out he's serious, I'd just walk out. It's not about me being angry... I don't say 'I'm too angry to shave my legs today' nor do I say 'I'm too stubborn to shave my legs today' I shave them when I want... he knows better than to complain... if he said 'shave your legs woman' well then yes, perhaps I WOULD be stubborn.. actually undoubtedly I would... but I think that would be acceptable in that situation... the day he starts dictating my appearance :shock: well that's the day he loses his balls
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)
there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.
and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...
Everyone keeps harping on the make up, where did I ever say women can't leave the house without perfect make up? What do you say to shaving the legs? You cool with your girl having hairier legs than you? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. To me, it's a combination of a laziness/insecurity/attitude thing. I still don't see why it's perfectly ok for her to say "he has to pull his financial weight like I do" but utterly unreasonable for me to say "she has to make an effort to look nice like I do."
Nobody ever said you had to make an effort to look nice, though.
And being capable of feeding oneself is something everyone should do indepent of whether or not they are in a relationship & regardless of social standards. They don't have to be able to take care of themselves financially FOR ME - and THEY don't have to take care of ME - they just have to not expect ME to take care of THEM. I don't understand why you seem so unable to comprehend that difference. Your attempted analogy might make more sense if the woman expected the man to actually financially support her - but his desire to mooch off of her instead of being able to feed himself is certainly not analogous to her not shaving her legs.
I used to have a boyfriend who, once he moved in with me, quit his job and layed around on the couch all day while I struggled to pay all the bills, feed him, buy his clothes, etc. and he had no concern whatsoever where our next meal was coming from - it was all up to me to figure out and take care of. All I meant by my original statement was that I don't want to be in this situation ever again. (If he becomes disabled or something, that's a different story.) You can't really believe that his actions were justified by me not shaving my legs. (Besides, how could I find the time to shave while working my ass off all the time??)
Also, you seem to be going back and forth about whether people are supposed to meet social standards or whether they're supposed to want to do what it takes to please their partners. You said a woman not shaving her legs is unacceptable because it's inconsiderate of your desires, and yet you're only willing to conform to social norms and not to your partner's desires. That sounds totally hypocritical to me.
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
I shave them cos it's not only men who like the feel of them who the hell said 'I will never, ever shave my legs cos it's blah blah blah'? I've said I shave them the odd time, if you're talking about SCB, talk to SCB. You insinuated that if she started shaving less and less that you'd leave her... I'm calling bullshit on that one unless you never really loved her anyway. I guess, like everything, there's a happy medium... once I don't offend anyone by having a bad hair day ON MY LEGS or by being lazy about wearing make up... well then we're all happy??? :? or something!
I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good. I just think that's an awful thing to say. And generally by 'everyone' in that comment, we mean women! How many greasy women with combovers advance to directoral levels in companies? Women are expected to look good and men are expected to bring home the bacon. However, there are plenty of men who can look good and don't earn a penny... how many women earn more than the average male and still look like crap? Women are just expected to do it ALL these days. It's just all going out of control... you certainly have mellowed on some of your opinions in this thread, as have I. Everyone should do the same.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....
Agreed! You don't need a sword and shield to say 'nope, I ain't shaving this week'
by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off but I caved anyway cos I like the feel of my legs being smoothe... he didn't cave so... who's being inconsiderate? And yet neither of us have left the other... despite this 'epic battle'
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Nobody ever said you had to make an effort to look nice, though.
And being capable of feeding oneself is something everyone should do indepent of whether or not they are in a relationship & regardless of social standards. They don't have to be able to take care of themselves financially FOR ME - and THEY don't have to take care of ME - they just have to not expect ME to take care of THEM. I don't understand why you seem so unable to comprehend that difference. Your attempted analogy might make more sense if the woman expected the man to actually financially support her - but his desire to mooch off of her instead of being able to feed himself is certainly not analogous to her not shaving her legs.
I used to have a boyfriend who, once he moved in with me, quit his job and layed around on the couch all day while I struggled to pay all the bills, feed him, buy his clothes, etc. and he had no concern whatsoever where our next meal was coming from - it was all up to me to figure out and take care of. All I meant by my original statement was that I don't want to be in this situation ever again. (If he becomes disabled or something, that's a different story.) You can't really believe that his actions were justified by me not shaving my legs. (Besides, how could I find the time to shave while working my ass off all the time??)
Also, you seem to be going back and forth about whether people are supposed to meet social standards or whether they're supposed to want to do what it takes to please their partners. You said a woman not shaving her legs is unacceptable because it's inconsiderate of your desires, and yet you're only willing to conform to social norms and not to your partner's desires. That sounds totally hypocritical to me.
And you're obsessing over money as bad if not worse than I obsess over making an effort to look nice for one's partner. You see? We both have things we find important in another mate. You don't want a lazy bum that can't support himself financially and I don't want a lazy woman that can't be bothered to try and look nice. You COULD provide for him, but you don't want to. And I COULD date such a woman, but I don't want to. That is my point... we all have standards. You're just saying that MY standards are wrong and yours are right, which is ridiculous and self-serving.
I never said he was justified in not working just because you didn't shave your legs. I'm saying you're justified in having a problem with him not working, and he is justified in being turned off by you not shaving your legs. They have nothing to do with each other, they are just two examples of the many ways we evaluate our mates and whether or not they meet our needs and desires for an ideal partner. There is nothing wrong with either of them and I never said there was. YOU are the one claiming that there IS something wrong with one of them while denying that there is any hypocrisy in saying that your utterly subjective standards are reasonable and somebody else's utterly subjective standards are not. If you make enough money to support two people, then there is no need for him to work. But you want him to because you don't like the idea of paying his way. That is a CHOICE based on your values. You can argue all you want about how reasonable it is. Sure it's reasonable. The point is it is still subjective. Plenty of men and women have no problem being the sole breadwinner and supporting a spouse/so. You do. That is your prerogative and you're entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to whatever standards I desire in a mate, be they making an effort to look nice or having three legs and psychic powers.
And there is nothing contradictory in what I said about social norms vs. pleasing a partner. I've never said a woman has to be perfect 100% of the time. I've said I think people in relationships should be willing to make reasonable sacrifices in order to make their partner happy. If they love them so much and think they're so special, they should try and if the partner loves them they should not have a problem when they fall short. Thus, you don't freak out when she has a few rough days and can't shave her legs. But it is reasonable to ask that she make an effort to do it when she can because it feels nice. However, asking her to shave her head could subject her to ridicule and that's not reasonable. Thus, if a girl prefers I don't grow a beard, I don't grow one. It's reasonable. If she prefers I shave my legs, that's going to be a problem because she's not just asking me to inconvenience myself for her, she's asking me to humiliate myself for her. That crosses the line.
I shave them cos it's not only men who like the feel of them who the hell said 'I will never, ever shave my legs cos it's blah blah blah'? I've said I shave them the odd time, if you're talking about SCB, talk to SCB. You insinuated that if she started shaving less and less that you'd leave her... I'm calling bullshit on that one unless you never really loved her anyway. I guess, like everything, there's a happy medium... once I don't offend anyone by having a bad hair day ON MY LEGS or by being lazy about wearing make up... well then we're all happy??? :? or something!
I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good. I just think that's an awful thing to say. And generally by 'everyone' in that comment, we mean women! How many greasy women with combovers advance to directoral levels in companies? Women are expected to look good and men are expected to bring home the bacon. However, there are plenty of men who can look good and don't earn a penny... how many women earn more than the average male and still look like crap? Women are just expected to do it ALL these days. It's just all going out of control... you certainly have mellowed on some of your opinions in this thread, as have I. Everyone should do the same.
scb did. And yes, if a girl I was with said she refused to ever shave her legs again, I'd probably go. Sexual attraction is part of a relationship and if I get turned off every time I touch her leg, that's going to be a problem and kill intimacy. I like shaved legs because, as you admit, they feel nice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that being among the things I consider in a mate. If I was into groping hairy legs... I'd not be talking about my problems with women, if you know what I mean.
As to the professional world, that's a whole different debate. I agree that there are problems in the workplace and I would say it's bullshit if you're refusing to promote some woman because she doesn't shave her legs. But I'm not talking about who I want to be the boss in my company, I'm talking about whose legs I want wrapped around me at night... and I prefer soft, smooth female legs to hairy man legs. I guess that makes me some sort of incredibly shallow asshole :roll:
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....
Agreed! You don't need a sword and shield to say 'nope, I ain't shaving this week'
by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off but I caved anyway cos I like the feel of my legs being smoothe... he didn't cave so... who's being inconsiderate? And yet neither of us have left the other... despite this 'epic battle'
He's being inconsiderate. But it's obviously not a dealbreaker for you. And if even you don't like letting your legs get hairy, can you blame him for feeling the same way?
Comments
I don't think you have any idea what my standards are. I'm not dating super models and never have. My ex is the hottest woman I ever saw, but everyone who's seen her picture admits she's very pretty but nothing special. I'm not exactly Don Juan myself and I don't expect the women I date to be Marilyn Monroe.
As to the fat slob... thanks for proving my point. He can meet someone on his level. But YOU wouldn't be willing to roll in the hay with him... because looks DO matter.
Interesting you say Marilyn Monroe as an example of attractive... if she were around today, she'd be too fat to get any work :shock:
And for the fat slob, fat doesn't put me off... I'm not into slobs though... see it's the personality that matters.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I don't think that's remotely what either of us has been pushing. What we've been saying is that looks do matter and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no shame or vanity is wanting to look good and appreciating or desiring good looks in others. It's as valid a component of attraction and relationships as any other. Nothing is indispensable... There are certain levels of bitchiness or air-headedness I couldn't live with, no matter how hot a woman is. Likewise, there are certain levels of ugly I couldn't live with, no matter how wonderful a person someone is, because sex and passion are important parts of the relationships I have. There are certain levels of joblessness scb can't live with.
You don't call people snobbish class-ists for insisting the guys they date have jobs. You don't call people demanding perfectionists for wanting a certain kind of personality. And you shouldn't call people "Shallow Hals" for wanting to date someone they find physically attractive.
Right. I could easily argue that what I've been talking about boils down to personality as well... I don't want a woman who's so inconsiderate of my likes and wants that she will absolutely refuse to meet any of them if they are at all an inconvenience for her... like shaving her legs. I don't want to date Narcissus, but the other extreme is no better. Make an effort to look nice, it's appreciated. The women that refuse to do that are too stubborn and bitchy for me.
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
Pretty fuckin awesome!!!
Edit: (only noticed after i wrote this that you'd figured what scb meant)
there's quite a difference between not making extra effort with your looks and having a lazy attitude. im pretty sure her point wasnt the physical nature of the slob, but the point like speedy said - its a laziness thing, or even a using thing. where someone just doesnt pull their weight in a relationship...its just not right.
and there are plenty of women that are gorgeous without "doing themselves up", obviously they brush their teeth and wipe their arse after shitting etc....but not wearing make up doesnt mean not making an effort. i guess its like your example of the ex you thought was stunning, and others thought she was pretty. different strokes...
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
MY husband hates when I wear lipstick because he says he likes my lips bare....
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I SO don't agree with this. My girlfriend barely uses makeup, and she's gorgeous all the time. You could say that I'm biased, and I am, but I'm not the only one saying it... people who don't know her tell me how she has this "natural beauty" to her. Obviously when we're going to a party or there's a special event going on, she puts on make up and all that and she looks stunning, but I love her looks without makeup and I'm 100% sure it's all about natural beauty.
I think smiling is the best makeup anyone could wear.
having things bare as a rule makes them better
I was simply pointing out that it's a cop out to claim that the physical looks of that fat guy is only repulsive to you because you ascribe it to some defect in his personality. It's a blatant attempt to avoid having to admit he's fat and you'd never sleep with him because he's physically disgusting.
I loved it when my ex wore no make up and she was hot even when sick. But refusing to shave your legs is gross, sorry. That I would not have been ok with and I'd have had a problem with it... she had such great legs too! And yes, if you refuse to shave your legs because you're that obsessed with how unfair society is to you and you're that angry and stubborn... then you're not for me. I hate hipsters and other people that make such a focused effort to "buck the man." It's like someone standing on a sinking ship and going "fuck no I'm not putting on a life jacket, I'm not letting this fucking water tell me what to do!" Suck it up, quit your whining, and deal with it.
So if your girlfriend wants you to shave your legs, balls, chest, face, head, or whatever else... would you do it? And, if not, would that make you stubborn and bitchy?
Great post (but, no, soulsinging hasn't figured out what I meant).
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
All but the legs. A guy with shaved legs violates too many social norms and I don't need my friends making cracks about it constantly. If your guy asked you to shave your head, I'd say you'd be justified telling him to piss off for the same reason.
Everyone keeps harping on the make up, where did I ever say women can't leave the house without perfect make up? What do you say to shaving the legs? You cool with your girl having hairier legs than you? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. To me, it's a combination of a laziness/insecurity/attitude thing. People act like I've been saying women revolt me if they're not doused in make up. But that's par for the course when insecure people hear this topic.
It's one thing to have those days where you roll out of bed and just don't have it in you to lift a finger. You gargle mouthwash instead of brushing, fuck the hair, throw on the fat sweatpants, and go through the motions. That's cool. But if you do that EVERY SINGLE day, yeah, I have a problem with that. To me it indicates 1) entitlement and 2) laziness and sloth. Entitlement because she demands I call her sexy without any effort on her part to be appealing. Would people here be ok if I told a girl "fuck you bitch, I will never acknowledge your birthday, give you a flower or gift of any kind, compliment you, or even be nice to you. But you should still love me and think I'm hot despite it because that's who I am." Of course not, it's fucking absurd. She's SHOULD feel like I don't care about her under those circumstances. If I think she's special, I should make an effort to make her feel special. If I'm never willing to lift a finger to do so, then it's only wise for her to think "maybe he doesn't care about me at all." That's all I'm saying.
I still don't see why it's perfectly ok for her to say "he has to pull his financial weight like I do" but utterly unreasonable for me to say "she has to make an effort to look nice like I do."
So why do you want to shave them? You say you only do it when you want... why do you want to shave them now and again?
Who said anything about dictating her appearance? I've never said anything like that to a woman. I don't flip the fuck out if she has a shit few days and doesn't get round to it. I do have a problem if she says "I will never, ever shave my legs because it's a bullshit patriarchal thing and I'm not going to bow to it!" Then we have a problem. I like smooth legs. Sue me. And I don't want to be with a woman who's going to turn a trivial thing like that into some epic political battle against the system.
I wonder if the original poster ever came back?
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
Agreed! I can't stay away from this thread.
Nobody ever said you had to make an effort to look nice, though.
And being capable of feeding oneself is something everyone should do indepent of whether or not they are in a relationship & regardless of social standards. They don't have to be able to take care of themselves financially FOR ME - and THEY don't have to take care of ME - they just have to not expect ME to take care of THEM. I don't understand why you seem so unable to comprehend that difference. Your attempted analogy might make more sense if the woman expected the man to actually financially support her - but his desire to mooch off of her instead of being able to feed himself is certainly not analogous to her not shaving her legs.
I used to have a boyfriend who, once he moved in with me, quit his job and layed around on the couch all day while I struggled to pay all the bills, feed him, buy his clothes, etc. and he had no concern whatsoever where our next meal was coming from - it was all up to me to figure out and take care of. All I meant by my original statement was that I don't want to be in this situation ever again. (If he becomes disabled or something, that's a different story.) You can't really believe that his actions were justified by me not shaving my legs. (Besides, how could I find the time to shave while working my ass off all the time??)
Also, you seem to be going back and forth about whether people are supposed to meet social standards or whether they're supposed to want to do what it takes to please their partners. You said a woman not shaving her legs is unacceptable because it's inconsiderate of your desires, and yet you're only willing to conform to social norms and not to your partner's desires. That sounds totally hypocritical to me.
It sounds to me like you're the one making it an epic battle....
I think all this is stemming from Pam's repeated comments that everyone should want to look good. I just think that's an awful thing to say. And generally by 'everyone' in that comment, we mean women! How many greasy women with combovers advance to directoral levels in companies? Women are expected to look good and men are expected to bring home the bacon. However, there are plenty of men who can look good and don't earn a penny... how many women earn more than the average male and still look like crap? Women are just expected to do it ALL these days. It's just all going out of control... you certainly have mellowed on some of your opinions in this thread, as have I. Everyone should do the same.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
by the way my bf is growing some kinda goatee which irritates the fuck out of my skin. I told him I wouldn't shave my legs til he shaved it off
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
And that everyone "needs help" to meet this standard because there's no such thing as natural beauty...
And you're obsessing over money as bad if not worse than I obsess over making an effort to look nice for one's partner. You see? We both have things we find important in another mate. You don't want a lazy bum that can't support himself financially and I don't want a lazy woman that can't be bothered to try and look nice. You COULD provide for him, but you don't want to. And I COULD date such a woman, but I don't want to. That is my point... we all have standards. You're just saying that MY standards are wrong and yours are right, which is ridiculous and self-serving.
I never said he was justified in not working just because you didn't shave your legs. I'm saying you're justified in having a problem with him not working, and he is justified in being turned off by you not shaving your legs. They have nothing to do with each other, they are just two examples of the many ways we evaluate our mates and whether or not they meet our needs and desires for an ideal partner. There is nothing wrong with either of them and I never said there was. YOU are the one claiming that there IS something wrong with one of them while denying that there is any hypocrisy in saying that your utterly subjective standards are reasonable and somebody else's utterly subjective standards are not. If you make enough money to support two people, then there is no need for him to work. But you want him to because you don't like the idea of paying his way. That is a CHOICE based on your values. You can argue all you want about how reasonable it is. Sure it's reasonable. The point is it is still subjective. Plenty of men and women have no problem being the sole breadwinner and supporting a spouse/so. You do. That is your prerogative and you're entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to whatever standards I desire in a mate, be they making an effort to look nice or having three legs and psychic powers.
And there is nothing contradictory in what I said about social norms vs. pleasing a partner. I've never said a woman has to be perfect 100% of the time. I've said I think people in relationships should be willing to make reasonable sacrifices in order to make their partner happy. If they love them so much and think they're so special, they should try and if the partner loves them they should not have a problem when they fall short. Thus, you don't freak out when she has a few rough days and can't shave her legs. But it is reasonable to ask that she make an effort to do it when she can because it feels nice. However, asking her to shave her head could subject her to ridicule and that's not reasonable. Thus, if a girl prefers I don't grow a beard, I don't grow one. It's reasonable. If she prefers I shave my legs, that's going to be a problem because she's not just asking me to inconvenience myself for her, she's asking me to humiliate myself for her. That crosses the line.
scb did. And yes, if a girl I was with said she refused to ever shave her legs again, I'd probably go. Sexual attraction is part of a relationship and if I get turned off every time I touch her leg, that's going to be a problem and kill intimacy. I like shaved legs because, as you admit, they feel nice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that being among the things I consider in a mate. If I was into groping hairy legs... I'd not be talking about my problems with women, if you know what I mean.
As to the professional world, that's a whole different debate. I agree that there are problems in the workplace and I would say it's bullshit if you're refusing to promote some woman because she doesn't shave her legs. But I'm not talking about who I want to be the boss in my company, I'm talking about whose legs I want wrapped around me at night... and I prefer soft, smooth female legs to hairy man legs. I guess that makes me some sort of incredibly shallow asshole :roll:
He's being inconsiderate. But it's obviously not a dealbreaker for you. And if even you don't like letting your legs get hairy, can you blame him for feeling the same way?