and obviously soulsinging's new tactic is just to grapple with my points forever more in the hope i say something out of turn..
i think saying 'god bless america' and 'greatest country in the world' is a bit silly and pompous... he disagrees with me.. yet on the national anthem thread he say
i cant tell you how many times the jeagler and his wasted friends have belted out "god bless america" at 1am in some random bar. it is a lot of fun, and also100% jeagler approved...so you really cant go wrong.
That's so lame. There are few things worse than cheap drunken patriotic sentimentality.
poor Jeagles... just having fun with his boys and yet its cheap patriotism... i say it's cheap patriotism to say 'god bless america' whenever and wherever and i get questioned by an amateur lawyer.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
It's funny because the flag waving, 'god bless America' and all that nationalistic (and religious) stuff cries out more of insecurity than confidence, the need to make up an identity lacking historical reality.
Yours once was, and still is to an extent, a great & powerful country. One with some dark parts in its history, but a proud nation. This appears to be fading. I once heard/read that "Only the soccer hooligan can save Britain." They may be correct.
yes... silly time has arrived. i havent been to Virginia... as previously stated... a big part of my wife's family live there... i;ve seen the photos... read the emails about Thanksgiving day... i;ve watched her cousins videos he makes about him growing up bisexual in Chester, VA... blah de blah... her uncle is scottish and moved there aged 19... he talks about the flags... when he brings his family over he has to explain why scotland doesnt have flags on every 2nd doorway.
its easy to know about things from 'talking' to people... you could have a chat with someone who had seen the Himalayas and described the funeral process of the people of Nepal.. leaving their dead out for the birds to eat.. but because you hadn't been i wouldnt believe you.
Oh, so you CAN form opinions of what things are like in other countries just by talking to people and seeing pictures and whatnot? Gee whiz, I thought the problem was that Americans never actually WENT to these places. Which is it dunk?
So you wouldn't believe anything I said about Nepal because I've never been there, but we're all to believe your opinions about Virginia despite you never having been there? Interesting.
It's funny because the flag waving, 'god bless America' and all that nationalistic (and religious) stuff cries out more of insecurity than confidence, the need to make up an identity lacking historical reality.
Yours once was, and still is to an extent, a great & powerful country. One with some dark parts in its history, but a proud nation. This appears to be fading. I once heard/read that "Only the soccer hooligan can save Britain." They may be correct.
she's not british... she's French :shock: but I think patriotism is dying here in england, aside from the soccer hooligan and others of course, many seem to have adopted the German attitude of shame... well many I've spoken to... so I can't say that's a general feeling.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
i believe, through what i've heard, read and seen that it is.
if its not then prove me wrong... have you been to Virginia?
I have been to Virginia. I also grew up in Ohio, one of those Midwestern states you refer to. They're both patriotic, but I've never been to places in either state where flags hung from every other house. Even Indiana, one of the most redneck kind of places I've been, has more confederate flags than American flags. And I see more flags supporting the local college football team in Ohio than I see American flags.
and obviously soulsinging's new tactic is just to grapple with my points forever more in the hope i say something out of turn..
i think saying 'god bless america' and 'greatest country in the world' is a bit silly and pompous... he disagrees with me.. yet on the national anthem thread he say
poor Jeagles... just having fun with his boys and yet its cheap patriotism... i say it's cheap patriotism to say 'god bless america' whenever and wherever and i get questioned by an amateur lawyer.
I did say that it was lame and cheap sentiment. But I didn't say it was pompous or arrogant. Just cheesy. But I do think it's silly and pompous of you to claim absolute knowledge of how pompous and arrogant the people are in a country you've never been to.
i believe, through what i've heard, read and seen that it is.
if its not then prove me wrong... have you been to Virginia?
I have been to Virginia. I also grew up in Ohio, one of those Midwestern states you refer to. They're both patriotic, but I've never been to places in either state where flags hung from every other house. Even Indiana, one of the most redneck kind of places I've been, has more confederate flags than American flags. And I see more flags supporting the local college football team in Ohio than I see American flags.
I lived in Indiana and the patriotism is one thing I really noticed. Not in a good/bad way just in a wow that's really different to the UK kind of way.
Yeah there was the flag on nearly every house (not the confederate flag) and the mailbox usually had some IU or Purdue symbol ... the flag in every classroom (we had no flags in school at all in the UK) ... singing the national anthem before every sporting event (I've never sung the anthem in school in the UK and for sporting events it's only done for a country v country match ... actually come to think of it I've probably never in my life sang my national anthem :P ) ... the hats off ... hand on heart during the anthem taking it very seriously.
So are we strangers now? Like rock and roll and the radio?
I lived in Indiana and the patriotism is one thing I really noticed. Not in a good/bad way just in a wow that's really different to the UK kind of way.
Yeah there was the flag on nearly every house (not the confederate flag) and the mailbox usually had some IU or Purdue symbol ... the flag in every classroom (we had no flags in school at all in the UK) ... singing the national anthem before every sporting event (I've never sung the anthem in school in the UK and for sporting events it's only done for a country v country match ... actually come to think of it I've probably never in my life sang my national anthem :P ) ... the hats off ... hand on heart during the anthem taking it very seriously.
I have to say we sing the national anthem before all gaelic football and hurling matches... mainly cos it's traditional since the football and hurling were things that were banned and were part of why people fought. Ugh... I could explain that better some other time probably :oops: brain freeze . I'm sure some people sing it blindly (and badly ) but there is a lot of sentiment attached to it. I kinda agree with that and I kinda don't.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
its easy to know about things from 'talking' to people... you could have a chat with someone who had seen the Himalayas and described the funeral process of the people of Nepal.. leaving their dead out for the birds to eat.. but because you hadn't been i wouldnt believe you.
So you wouldn't believe anything I said about Nepal because I've never been there, but we're all to believe your opinions about Virginia despite you never having been there? Interesting.[/quote]
thats what you were doing to me. repeatedly asking me if i've been to Virginia.... its not enough that a big part of my wife's family is in Virginia and so she knows what it's like first hand... she's been 4 or 5 times.. staying upto 3 or 4 weeks at the longest. thats how i 'know'.
using your formula of "have you been to Virginia dunk?" i;m saying to you... how do you know they leave their dead out in Tibet? cos someone who had been had told you perhaps... therefore you know that... thats fairly simple i thought?
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
i do love Scotland... i dont have a flag.. i dont have a bumper sticker.. i dont want god to bless us... i just like where i live and thats enough for me... i dont feel the compulsion to shout it from the rooftops... i love Scotland... but i've been to many other countries... i can see things they do better.. some worse... i'd still rather live here.. but i wouldnt be so arrogant to say it was the greatest country in the world as you have the opportunity to fulfil a dream... my dreams are to watch strippers... i can do that here. its no biggie.[/quote]
being the "original poster" i find the fact that this thread has made it to 11 pages or whatever completely insane considering i was posting merely about the media's biased coverage of our new president. but dunk, come on man. you have got to lighten up about this. you cant be serious. can you?
i said it was the greatest country on earth. big fucking deal. that is my opinion. you have yours and i have mine. and it might shock you to learn that i have been to 6 other countries. so im not some ignorant hick who has never ventured more than "50 miles" from where i grew up, which was an idiot statement to begin with. its my opinion that i live in the best country in the world. fucking deal with it. and you know what, if an ignorant hick thinks his country is the greatest on earth, good for him.
and "god bless it" was said with a wink and a nod as i have mentioned before in this thread. to be honest i really don't hear many people saying it too often though. but i just find it to be a humorous thing to say. my friends and i say it about everything. my girlfriend surprised me on sunday by coming home with 2 30 packs for the eagles game (i forgot to get them myself)....GOD BLESS HER! BEST GIRLFRIEND IN THE WORLD!! and you know what? i fucking love my keyboard too. FUCKING LOVE IT! GOD BLESS IT! best keyboard in the world!!!! the fucking world, dunk! do you hear me?? scotland's keyboard's aint got shit on this one baby! woohoo!
but basically, don't let little things like this eat at you. and dont say it doesnt or that it "bores" you because it obviously does irritate you to death seeing how many posts you have in here. who fucking cares? i love my country. i'm patriotic. i was born on flag day for christ's sake. you disagree with my assertion. fine. you don't agree with teaching kids to be patriotic. fine. thats your choice. leave it at that and move on.
i said it was the greatest country on earth. big fucking deal. that is my opinion.
and i have said i dont think it is... and that's my opinion...
as i've said... i've given this opinion on quite a few threads.. and each time it goes on to 10-20 pages full of americans having a go at me and telling me to shut up and wear my skirt.
this forum is called "non pearl-jam discussion" ... it'd be pretty shit if everyone came on and said
"god does/doesnt exist. thats my opinion. big fucking deal."
and then when someone offers a discussion as to why that may or not be the case, that person gets shot down for even attempting the discussion part of the forum title. :?
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
i said it was the greatest country on earth. big fucking deal. that is my opinion.
and i have said i dont think it is... and that's my opinion...
as i've said... i've given this opinion on quite a few threads.. and each time it goes on to 10-20 pages full of americans having a go at me and telling me to shut up and wear my skirt.
this forum is called "non pearl-jam discussion" ... it'd be pretty shit if everyone came on and said
"god does/doesnt exist. thats my opinion. big fucking deal."
and then when someone offers a discussion as to why that may or not be the case, that person gets shot down for even attempting the discussion part of the forum title. :?
but you keep saying you're bored with it when obviously you're not
i understand what this forum is called and what it is meant for. it just seems like this is going around and around in circles. plus the point of my original post was about the god damned media's bias!
but god bless you anyway dunkman
and i have said i dont think it is... and that's my opinion...
as i've said... i've given this opinion on quite a few threads.. and each time it goes on to 10-20 pages full of americans having a go at me and telling me to shut up and wear my skirt.
this forum is called "non pearl-jam discussion" ... it'd be pretty shit if everyone came on and said
"god does/doesnt exist. thats my opinion. big fucking deal."
and then when someone offers a discussion as to why that may or not be the case, that person gets shot down for even attempting the discussion part of the forum title. :?
Shot down? I'd call it discussing back, and challenging your views. That's what discussion is. It's your right to voice your opinion but we can't respond or dispute it?
and i have said i dont think it is... and that's my opinion...
as i've said... i've given this opinion on quite a few threads.. and each time it goes on to 10-20 pages full of americans having a go at me and telling me to shut up and wear my skirt.
this forum is called "non pearl-jam discussion" ... it'd be pretty shit if everyone came on and said
"god does/doesnt exist. thats my opinion. big fucking deal."
and then when someone offers a discussion as to why that may or not be the case, that person gets shot down for even attempting the discussion part of the forum title. :?
Shot down? I'd call it discussing back, and challenging your views. That's what discussion is. It's your right to voice your opinion but we can't respond or dispute it?
shot down yes... by comments like "piss ant country" and "put your skirt on"... thats not reasoned discussion is it?
your last sentence makes no sense... i never said that... i actually said everything should be up for discussion... its the name of the forum... just as when someone says "america is the greatest country in the world" then i believe i can respond to that or dispute it... you seem to have a problem understanding that.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I just wanted to take a break from this heated discussion to say that Dokken rules.
Fucking A.
Now back to our regularly-scheduled program of folk from the EU arguing with Americans
i've enjoyed - is that possible? - catching up with this thread...and sure, i agree with your iput. perhaps not about dokken but all else, you bet.
dunk....i don't think it's fair to judge those participating in this thread against comments you may've received from others, elsewhere....even on this board. i haven't seen anyone outright dismiss your opinion, tell you to wear a skirt, etc. not here. so imo, not too cool to judge one group on the behaviors of others.....but then again, i always think like that.
i think it's all pretty clear we all agree to disagree...even if some may do so begrudgingly. :P i just think, while we are told to go out and experience the world, so we may learn others' cultures.....respect other cultures....something part of our culture doesn't seem to get that same level of respect. not understanding, nor approval.....just respect that it is part of our culture. so americans get all rah-rah america.....love to wave flags...display flags...sing national anthems at sporting events. as it only actually impacts fellow americans, or visitors to america...who i assume want to see first-hand american culture....i still fail to see the issue. if it 'bothers' some that they may have to hear it on occasion when watching some news about the US...well, it is what it is. i just don't get the issue.....and it's not a confidence thing or lack thereof, not from what i can tell....people just seemingly enjoy it, and as a whole - certainly not all of course - just a patriotic society we live in here. not for everyone, but hey...it's a part of who we are. c'est la vie.
overall, i couldn't care what most people's personal religious beliefs are, or their preferences in general. it's all good. btw - i never told anyone they're wrong...just that i disagree
So if you met a Nazi who voiced his hatred of black people and Jews, or a Zionist who said that he wished all Palestinians should be wiped out, then that's 'all good' as far as you're concerned? And if someone that you know was involved in a hit-and-run and killed someone you wouldn't tell them that they were wrong, but you'd simply 'disagree'?
I'm not quite sure that I understand your point. What exactly are you trying to say?
my point on the thread has been made many times over.
as to your question, you are taking it to extremes. please notice the very first word in what you quoted - OVERALL - meaning, generally speaking, not talking about every person, every interest, and so on.
having different opinions is all well and good, that is my point. talking within the parameters of the average person. sorry if that was not plain to see.
as to the passport arguement - i've read it time and again. dunk said americans don't step off their front doorstep.....and i disagreed. one can travel a LOT and FAR, right within the USA, meet many different cultures, be richly experienced in different cultures - damn, i can do so every day at work, to/from work.....NYC....without ever utilizing a passport. given that many countries in europe are smaller than a great # of states, i'd hazard to guess while sure more europeans have passports, and sure, visiting different countries....it really isn't that broad to travel to 5 different neighboring countries in europe than it is here. also, used to be you didn't need a passport for canada or mexico..so one could travel a LOT within north america and not require one. that said, personally i can't see not owning a passport, simply b/c i love to travel and yes travel far and go to other countries. however, at any given time....even one well-traveled may well be without a passport b/c i believe ours expire every 10 years i think? so sure, if mine was to expire and i didn't have a foreign trip planned, i'd not renew until i did. so that little 'fact' is deceiving.
how any of this relates to jesus christ being sworn in yesterday tho..i have no idea.
dunky......you're as pedantic as they come as well m'dear....at least hold the mirror up to yourself rather than simply reflecting it on others. at least i own up to my nature. and sure...not everything is as clear cut, right/wrong....as what time a TV show begins.
Sorry, but I fell asleep after reading the first 3 paragraphs.
as to the passport arguement - i've read it time and again. dunk said americans don't step off their front doorstep.....and i disagreed. one can travel a LOT and FAR, right within the USA, meet many different cultures, be richly experienced in different cultures - damn, i can do so every day at work, to/from work.....NYC....without ever utilizing a passport.
as is the same in London, Marseille, Madrid, Berlin... etc.
the passport thing is because its very hard to say "greatest country in the world" when 85% of that country has never been across a national border... actually its very easy to say that... its just very hard to corroborate when having never experience more of the 'world'.. other countries and cultures.
and the average citizen living in the middle of nowhere in france, or italy, or where have you...is well-traveled? you know this why?....simply b/c they have a passport? that is proof enough?
i find it funny how you continually spout off about american beliefs, ways of life, etc...how we, as a country are so insular, untraveled, etc...and yet....you've not even stepped foot on american soil once. hmmmmm.....oh but you can know so much about us, our way of life, etc.....how? why? or, yes...from other experiences.
and you want to argue the whole 'greatest country in the world'...go ahead! i've not disputed it's stupid. i just find it amazing that somehow it actually effects you, insults you, or what exactly? what difference does it make in your world if some guy in iowa who never stepped foot off his front porch happens to think he lives in the greatest country in the world? it's a feeling, an opinion.....not rooted in 'fact'...but in pride, perhaps misguided....but a love for where you live, i just don't see the 'offense' in it.
and again, for something you find so boring...you sure like to talk about it a lot. me, if a subject bores me, it bores me...and i don't waste a moment of my time on it unless absolutely necessary.
You have to pledge allegiance to the flag every day at school, do you not?
but in Virginia i know that patriotism is a huge huge thing... flags, standing up at high school ball games and hearing the anthem, etc etc ... at my high school if the national anthem came on we wouldnt know why?
You do? When was the last time you were in Virginia?
I was in Virginia in 1991. The last time I was in America was in 2005. Dunk is right - flags everywhere. Every house flying a big Stars and Stripes.
overall, i couldn't care what most people's personal religious beliefs are, or their preferences in general. it's all good. btw - i never told anyone they're wrong...just that i disagree
So if you met a Nazi who voiced his hatred of black people and Jews, or a Zionist who said that he wished all Palestinians should be wiped out, then that's 'all good' as far as you're concerned? And if someone that you know was involved in a hit-and-run and killed someone you wouldn't tell them that they were wrong, but you'd simply 'disagree'?
I'm not quite sure that I understand your point. What exactly are you trying to say?
my point on the thread has been made many times over.
as to your question, you are taking it to extremes. please notice the very first word in what you quoted - OVERALL - meaning, generally speaking, not talking about every person, every interest, and so on.
having different opinions is all well and good, that is my point. talking within the parameters of the average person. sorry if that was not plain to see.
as to the passport arguement - i've read it time and again. dunk said americans don't step off their front doorstep.....and i disagreed. one can travel a LOT and FAR, right within the USA, meet many different cultures, be richly experienced in different cultures - damn, i can do so every day at work, to/from work.....NYC....without ever utilizing a passport. given that many countries in europe are smaller than a great # of states, i'd hazard to guess while sure more europeans have passports, and sure, visiting different countries....it really isn't that broad to travel to 5 different neighboring countries in europe than it is here. also, used to be you didn't need a passport for canada or mexico..so one could travel a LOT within north america and not require one. that said, personally i can't see not owning a passport, simply b/c i love to travel and yes travel far and go to other countries. however, at any given time....even one well-traveled may well be without a passport b/c i believe ours expire every 10 years i think? so sure, if mine was to expire and i didn't have a foreign trip planned, i'd not renew until i did. so that little 'fact' is deceiving.
how any of this relates to jesus christ being sworn in yesterday tho..i have no idea.
dunky......you're as pedantic as they come as well m'dear....at least hold the mirror up to yourself rather than simply reflecting it on others. at least i own up to my nature. and sure...not everything is as clear cut, right/wrong....as what time a TV show begins.
Actually, you completely missed the point. This debate is about Americans claiming that their country is the greatest in the world when most Americans have never set foot abroad. Your focusing on the ownership of a passport issue is a distraction. Even if 100% of Americans owned passports but only 10% traveled abroad, the fact that 100% of Americans own passports wouldn't change the fact that only 10% of Americans have ever traveled abroad.
O.k, time to tell us all again how aware of others viewpoints you are, and how you appreciate that we are not all the same, e.t.c.
but in Virginia i know that patriotism is a huge huge thing... flags, standing up at high school ball games and hearing the anthem, etc etc ... at my high school if the national anthem came on we wouldnt know why?
You do? When was the last time you were in Virginia?
I was in Virginia in 1991. The last time I was in America was in 2005. Dunk is right - flags everywhere. Every house flying a big Stars and Stripes.
I've been in America since 2005 and for 20 years before it, and in Virginia a mere 3 years ago. Dunk is wrong - flags weren't everywhere.
Man, that was easy.
Oh yeah, no one person's experience is going to carry this discussion... especially not one person who admits to never having set foot on US soil and another person who hasn't been here in years and somehow thinks China has more freedom than the US because they don't have traffic lights.
Actually, you completely missed the point. This debate is about Americans claiming that their country is the greatest in the world when most Americans have never set foot abroad. Your focusing on the ownership of a passport issue is a distraction. Even if 100% of Americans owned passports but only 10% traveled abroad, the fact that 100% of Americans own passports wouldn't change the fact that only 10% of Americans have ever traveled abroad.
O.k, time to tell us all again how aware of others viewpoints you are, and how you appreciate that we are not all the same, e.t.c.
apparently, you missed the actual *point* of the thread....but that's ok.
i *get* what the off-topic debate is all about. the thread starter himself, the one who started the 'controversy' of it, has said he himself HAS traveled abroad, and still considers his home country the 'greatest'......so so much for not traveling. i have traveled a great deal, never have uttered ANY country, or anything else for that matter...to be the 'greatest in the world'...b/c i just don't think like that. some people do. it's personal persepctive, or maybe YOU missed that point.
and i think dunky clearly illustrated just how much one can 'know' about a place they have not visited, thru so many other avenues. travel alone isn't *it*...tho i do agree, first-hand experience is one of the greatest teachers. but american, european or any other...most people's 'travels' are only a taste, and as someone who has lived abroad in 2 different countries for close to 2 years, visited a whole bunch more...and i know you currently are yourself living abroad..you can probably say the same, a week or two visiting the major tourist trappings of any city, country, etc.....isn't all that for 'learning culture' either....
thanks for pointing out what i missed tho.
i think it's awesome when someone says they've seen the states...and all the ever visited was disney world for a week. 50 states, thousands of miles apart...most bigger than most european countries...states, hell even cities...with bigger populations than entire countries....but all has been seen by a visit to disney. hell, even NYC isn't seeing nearly enough to say you've really 'experienced' the US. :P it indeed goes both ways.
difference is, i DO respect the differences...and i couldn't care less that someone sings from the rooftops that their country is the geatest on the planet. it has zero bearing on my life.
and as to the flag -waving in the US, it's funny...i went to 8 pj shows in europe, over 20 in the US and canada, and all the flags i see at all these shows? from all over thw world. i wonder why anyone wants to wave their flag at a rock concert?
[You have to pledge allegiance to the flag every day at school, do you not?
no. one does not HAVE to do anything they do not desire to.
do school children have a time set aside for it? as far as i remember back while i still taught, yes....but no child would ever be forced to, nor reprimanded, etc.
just like a sporting event, no one 'has' to sing, nor stand, nor put their hand over their heart...no one has to display a flag, etc, etc, etc..it's all free-will and choice.
Sorry, but I fell asleep after reading the first 3 paragraphs.
first 3 paragraphs? a sum total of 6 sentences....nice attention span there. funny too, 'fall asleep' yet choose to quote that post 2 times. if my opinions are so easily dismissed, why waste your time? that's what i don't get. my points are garbage to you, this topic is 'boring' to dunk...yet you both can't seemingly stop. and none of it about jesus being sworn in ...nor media bias. why dontcha start a new thread on how boring we flag-waing god-blessin' americans are and have a blast!
Meeting people from different places in your own country is one thing but it's very different to BE in a different place, be the minority too (and many expats are not typical of their original country btw, and America seems to very strongly push people to give up their culture and become just Americans).
It's funny because the flag waving, 'god bless America' and all that nationalistic (and religious) stuff cries out more of insecurity than confidence, the need to make up an identity lacking historical reality.
this is so off-topic, but i have to address this point. i have NO idea where you get this idea. maybe years ago, when america viewed itself and was seen as a 'melting pot'...but it hasn't been like that in a LONG time. cultural diversity is well celebrated here and i know this first hand. i spent 10 years teaching in minority schools, and each student had pride in their home country, celebrated their cutures and traditions...and sure...also enjoyed purely 'american' culture as well. you will see flags of all nations, not just the american flag, hanging proudly on many homes within the US. perhaps that has much to do with all the 'patriotism' in the states that somehow seems to offend others. we are still a relatively 'young' nation.....and most of our citizens are immigrants, the descendants of immigrants....so this patriotism, is a connecting tie for people of various cultures to unite together in some way....celebrate their individulaity, and yet still identify with the 'whole.' my father was a rah-rah american. he was an italian immigrant, i am a first-born american....he was proud to become a citizen, he was proud to vote, to start his business here, fight in WWII, marry someone of a different culture, raise a family here...learn about his new country thru travel and experience. we, as a society, do not expect assimilation, not at all. spend any amount of time in any of the major cities and you would see that, clearly.
Its pretty sad when people spend their lives hating one man for 8 years. I Just hope the Republicans show more class than the Democrats and don't spend the next 4 years hating him if they disagree with his policies.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Its pretty sad when people spend their lives hating one man for 8 years. I Just hope the Republicans show more class than the Democrats and don't spend the next 4 years hating him if they disagree with his policies.
there is good reason to hate bush, with a passion! his presidency is not filled with innocuous badcalls....he *cost* thins country so much, the repercussions of which will be felt for gawd knows how long...but most importantly, the lives lost!
and btw - it's not simply a dem/rep thing, not at all...and it cuts both ways.
Its pretty sad when people spend their lives hating one man for 8 years. I Just hope the Republicans show more class than the Democrats and don't spend the next 4 years hating him if they disagree with his policies.
no, it would be sad if I didn't show contempt for someone who is a dishonest, thieving murderer.
i have traveled a great deal, never have uttered ANY country, or anything else for that matter...to be the 'greatest in the world'...b/c i just don't think like that. some people do. it's personal persepctive, or maybe YOU missed that point.
It may be 'personal perspective' but that doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion.
Just what is this obsession you have with 'personal perspective' anyway? Why do you keep dragging it into every thread topic that you post in? Seems like you think that because people are different we should just accept every viewpoint out there and not comment on, or discuss, them. Sounds like a major cop-out to me. Maybe silence and a sanctimonious attitude is acceptable to someone living a cozy life free of any significant trouble, but that isn't the case for everybody. Your apathy is a middle-class luxury. It's also incredibly irritating and un-constructive.
i still fail to see the issue. if it 'bothers' some that they may have to hear it on occasion when watching some news about the US...well, it is what it is. i just don't get the issue.....and it's not a confidence thing or lack thereof, not from what i can tell....people just seemingly enjoy it, and as a whole - certainly not all of course - just a patriotic society we live in here. not for everyone, but hey...it's a part of who we are. c'est la vie.
for someone who fails to see the issue you keep coming back in to the discussion :?
i'm not a fan of inherent blinkered patriotism... as i've already said.. and i've also said that those guys you see in documentaries or on youtube chugging cans of beer and chanting USA USA at the fucking Ryder Cup of all places sums that up.
they believe they live in the greatest country on earth™ because its soaked in from a young age.. its patriotism by osmosis... that guy on this thread proved that. Helen said we all have opportunities across the world, in other countries and given2fly (or whatever he's called) just said 'whatever' and about 8 rolleyed smilies. but he doesnt really 'know' that, its just what he's been programmed to believe... and so you're left thinking "is that it? is that the sum of his defence or the only counterargument that he can offer? "
and that's symptomatic of quite a lot of posters on here, lots of Americans we've met, movies, books, magazine articles, news reports, documentaries, etc...
and i asked earlier in the thread 'WHY is it the greatest country in the world' and the answer given was 'opportunities' and so i asked 'opportunities to do what?' and then the 2nd answer was 'live out your dreams'.
is this a US centric ideal... that only people born there can have a dream and have it be attainable? dare i say it but thats arrogant and pompous. most western 1st world countries offer the same opportunities so that answer is moot. its fallible.
i would guess most people love their countries, most people stay within the country they are born and cheer on their team at sporting events, etc... but you won't see scottish, french, italian, spanish flags flying from every 2nd or 3rd porch... you wont see them stand up at school sports events and sing the national anthem, you wont see politicians wearing pin-badges so as not to offend the patriotic masses... we just have no need to bellow it in many aspects of our lives.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Comments
i think saying 'god bless america' and 'greatest country in the world' is a bit silly and pompous... he disagrees with me.. yet on the national anthem thread he say
poor Jeagles... just having fun with his boys and yet its cheap patriotism... i say it's cheap patriotism to say 'god bless america' whenever and wherever and i get questioned by an amateur lawyer.
Yours once was, and still is to an extent, a great & powerful country. One with some dark parts in its history, but a proud nation. This appears to be fading. I once heard/read that "Only the soccer hooligan can save Britain." They may be correct.
Oh, so you CAN form opinions of what things are like in other countries just by talking to people and seeing pictures and whatnot? Gee whiz, I thought the problem was that Americans never actually WENT to these places. Which is it dunk?
So you wouldn't believe anything I said about Nepal because I've never been there, but we're all to believe your opinions about Virginia despite you never having been there? Interesting.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I have been to Virginia. I also grew up in Ohio, one of those Midwestern states you refer to. They're both patriotic, but I've never been to places in either state where flags hung from every other house. Even Indiana, one of the most redneck kind of places I've been, has more confederate flags than American flags. And I see more flags supporting the local college football team in Ohio than I see American flags.
I did say that it was lame and cheap sentiment. But I didn't say it was pompous or arrogant. Just cheesy. But I do think it's silly and pompous of you to claim absolute knowledge of how pompous and arrogant the people are in a country you've never been to.
I lived in Indiana and the patriotism is one thing I really noticed. Not in a good/bad way just in a wow that's really different to the UK kind of way.
Yeah there was the flag on nearly every house (not the confederate flag) and the mailbox usually had some IU or Purdue symbol ... the flag in every classroom (we had no flags in school at all in the UK) ... singing the national anthem before every sporting event (I've never sung the anthem in school in the UK and for sporting events it's only done for a country v country match ... actually come to think of it I've probably never in my life sang my national anthem :P ) ... the hats off ... hand on heart during the anthem taking it very seriously.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
So you wouldn't believe anything I said about Nepal because I've never been there, but we're all to believe your opinions about Virginia despite you never having been there? Interesting.[/quote]
thats what you were doing to me. repeatedly asking me if i've been to Virginia.... its not enough that a big part of my wife's family is in Virginia and so she knows what it's like first hand... she's been 4 or 5 times.. staying upto 3 or 4 weeks at the longest. thats how i 'know'.
using your formula of "have you been to Virginia dunk?" i;m saying to you... how do you know they leave their dead out in Tibet? cos someone who had been had told you perhaps... therefore you know that... thats fairly simple i thought?
i do love Scotland... i dont have a flag.. i dont have a bumper sticker.. i dont want god to bless us... i just like where i live and thats enough for me... i dont feel the compulsion to shout it from the rooftops... i love Scotland... but i've been to many other countries... i can see things they do better.. some worse... i'd still rather live here.. but i wouldnt be so arrogant to say it was the greatest country in the world as you have the opportunity to fulfil a dream... my dreams are to watch strippers... i can do that here. its no biggie.[/quote]
being the "original poster" i find the fact that this thread has made it to 11 pages or whatever completely insane considering i was posting merely about the media's biased coverage of our new president. but dunk, come on man. you have got to lighten up about this. you cant be serious. can you?
i said it was the greatest country on earth. big fucking deal. that is my opinion. you have yours and i have mine. and it might shock you to learn that i have been to 6 other countries. so im not some ignorant hick who has never ventured more than "50 miles" from where i grew up, which was an idiot statement to begin with. its my opinion that i live in the best country in the world. fucking deal with it. and you know what, if an ignorant hick thinks his country is the greatest on earth, good for him.
and "god bless it" was said with a wink and a nod as i have mentioned before in this thread. to be honest i really don't hear many people saying it too often though. but i just find it to be a humorous thing to say. my friends and i say it about everything. my girlfriend surprised me on sunday by coming home with 2 30 packs for the eagles game (i forgot to get them myself)....GOD BLESS HER! BEST GIRLFRIEND IN THE WORLD!! and you know what? i fucking love my keyboard too. FUCKING LOVE IT! GOD BLESS IT! best keyboard in the world!!!! the fucking world, dunk! do you hear me?? scotland's keyboard's aint got shit on this one baby! woohoo!
but basically, don't let little things like this eat at you. and dont say it doesnt or that it "bores" you because it obviously does irritate you to death seeing how many posts you have in here. who fucking cares? i love my country. i'm patriotic. i was born on flag day for christ's sake. you disagree with my assertion. fine. you don't agree with teaching kids to be patriotic. fine. thats your choice. leave it at that and move on.
and i have said i dont think it is... and that's my opinion...
as i've said... i've given this opinion on quite a few threads.. and each time it goes on to 10-20 pages full of americans having a go at me and telling me to shut up and wear my skirt.
this forum is called "non pearl-jam discussion" ... it'd be pretty shit if everyone came on and said
"god does/doesnt exist. thats my opinion. big fucking deal."
and then when someone offers a discussion as to why that may or not be the case, that person gets shot down for even attempting the discussion part of the forum title. :?
but you keep saying you're bored with it when obviously you're not
i understand what this forum is called and what it is meant for. it just seems like this is going around and around in circles. plus the point of my original post was about the god damned media's bias!
but god bless you anyway dunkman
Shot down? I'd call it discussing back, and challenging your views. That's what discussion is. It's your right to voice your opinion but we can't respond or dispute it?
shot down yes... by comments like "piss ant country" and "put your skirt on"... thats not reasoned discussion is it?
your last sentence makes no sense... i never said that... i actually said everything should be up for discussion... its the name of the forum... just as when someone says "america is the greatest country in the world" then i believe i can respond to that or dispute it... you seem to have a problem understanding that.
Fucking A.
Now back to our regularly-scheduled program of folk from the EU arguing with Americans
i've enjoyed - is that possible?
dunk....i don't think it's fair to judge those participating in this thread against comments you may've received from others, elsewhere....even on this board. i haven't seen anyone outright dismiss your opinion, tell you to wear a skirt, etc. not here. so imo, not too cool to judge one group on the behaviors of others.....but then again, i always think like that.
i think it's all pretty clear we all agree to disagree...even if some may do so begrudgingly. :P i just think, while we are told to go out and experience the world, so we may learn others' cultures.....respect other cultures....something part of our culture doesn't seem to get that same level of respect. not understanding, nor approval.....just respect that it is part of our culture. so americans get all rah-rah america.....love to wave flags...display flags...sing national anthems at sporting events. as it only actually impacts fellow americans, or visitors to america...who i assume want to see first-hand american culture....i still fail to see the issue. if it 'bothers' some that they may have to hear it on occasion when watching some news about the US...well, it is what it is. i just don't get the issue.....and it's not a confidence thing or lack thereof, not from what i can tell....people just seemingly enjoy it, and as a whole - certainly not all of course - just a patriotic society we live in here. not for everyone, but hey...it's a part of who we are. c'est la vie.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Sorry, but I fell asleep after reading the first 3 paragraphs.
You have to pledge allegiance to the flag every day at school, do you not?
I was in Virginia in 1991. The last time I was in America was in 2005. Dunk is right - flags everywhere. Every house flying a big Stars and Stripes.
Actually, you completely missed the point. This debate is about Americans claiming that their country is the greatest in the world when most Americans have never set foot abroad. Your focusing on the ownership of a passport issue is a distraction. Even if 100% of Americans owned passports but only 10% traveled abroad, the fact that 100% of Americans own passports wouldn't change the fact that only 10% of Americans have ever traveled abroad.
O.k, time to tell us all again how aware of others viewpoints you are, and how you appreciate that we are not all the same, e.t.c.
I've been in America since 2005 and for 20 years before it, and in Virginia a mere 3 years ago. Dunk is wrong - flags weren't everywhere.
Man, that was easy.
Oh yeah, no one person's experience is going to carry this discussion... especially not one person who admits to never having set foot on US soil and another person who hasn't been here in years and somehow thinks China has more freedom than the US because they don't have traffic lights.
apparently, you missed the actual *point* of the thread....but that's ok.
i *get* what the off-topic debate is all about. the thread starter himself, the one who started the 'controversy' of it, has said he himself HAS traveled abroad, and still considers his home country the 'greatest'......so so much for not traveling. i have traveled a great deal, never have uttered ANY country, or anything else for that matter...to be the 'greatest in the world'...b/c i just don't think like that. some people do. it's personal persepctive, or maybe YOU missed that point.
and i think dunky clearly illustrated just how much one can 'know' about a place they have not visited, thru so many other avenues. travel alone isn't *it*...tho i do agree, first-hand experience is one of the greatest teachers. but american, european or any other...most people's 'travels' are only a taste, and as someone who has lived abroad in 2 different countries for close to 2 years, visited a whole bunch more...and i know you currently are yourself living abroad..you can probably say the same, a week or two visiting the major tourist trappings of any city, country, etc.....isn't all that for 'learning culture' either....
thanks for pointing out what i missed tho.
i think it's awesome when someone says they've seen the states...and all the ever visited was disney world for a week. 50 states, thousands of miles apart...most bigger than most european countries...states, hell even cities...with bigger populations than entire countries....but all has been seen by a visit to disney. hell, even NYC isn't seeing nearly enough to say you've really 'experienced' the US. :P it indeed goes both ways.
difference is, i DO respect the differences...and i couldn't care less that someone sings from the rooftops that their country is the geatest on the planet. it has zero bearing on my life.
and as to the flag -waving in the US, it's funny...i went to 8 pj shows in europe, over 20 in the US and canada, and all the flags i see at all these shows? from all over thw world. i wonder why anyone wants to wave their flag at a rock concert?
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
no. one does not HAVE to do anything they do not desire to.
do school children have a time set aside for it? as far as i remember back while i still taught, yes....but no child would ever be forced to, nor reprimanded, etc.
just like a sporting event, no one 'has' to sing, nor stand, nor put their hand over their heart...no one has to display a flag, etc, etc, etc..it's all free-will and choice.
edit.
btw: funny.....
first 3 paragraphs? a sum total of 6 sentences....nice attention span there. funny too, 'fall asleep' yet choose to quote that post 2 times. if my opinions are so easily dismissed, why waste your time? that's what i don't get. my points are garbage to you, this topic is 'boring' to dunk...yet you both can't seemingly stop. and none of it about jesus being sworn in
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
this is so off-topic, but i have to address this point. i have NO idea where you get this idea. maybe years ago, when america viewed itself and was seen as a 'melting pot'...but it hasn't been like that in a LONG time. cultural diversity is well celebrated here and i know this first hand. i spent 10 years teaching in minority schools, and each student had pride in their home country, celebrated their cutures and traditions...and sure...also enjoyed purely 'american' culture as well. you will see flags of all nations, not just the american flag, hanging proudly on many homes within the US. perhaps that has much to do with all the 'patriotism' in the states that somehow seems to offend others. we are still a relatively 'young' nation.....and most of our citizens are immigrants, the descendants of immigrants....so this patriotism, is a connecting tie for people of various cultures to unite together in some way....celebrate their individulaity, and yet still identify with the 'whole.' my father was a rah-rah american. he was an italian immigrant, i am a first-born american....he was proud to become a citizen, he was proud to vote, to start his business here, fight in WWII, marry someone of a different culture, raise a family here...learn about his new country thru travel and experience. we, as a society, do not expect assimilation, not at all. spend any amount of time in any of the major cities and you would see that, clearly.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
there is good reason to hate bush, with a passion! his presidency is not filled with innocuous badcalls....he *cost* thins country so much, the repercussions of which will be felt for gawd knows how long...but most importantly, the lives lost!
and btw - it's not simply a dem/rep thing, not at all...and it cuts both ways.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
no, it would be sad if I didn't show contempt for someone who is a dishonest, thieving murderer.
It may be 'personal perspective' but that doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion.
Just what is this obsession you have with 'personal perspective' anyway? Why do you keep dragging it into every thread topic that you post in? Seems like you think that because people are different we should just accept every viewpoint out there and not comment on, or discuss, them. Sounds like a major cop-out to me. Maybe silence and a sanctimonious attitude is acceptable to someone living a cozy life free of any significant trouble, but that isn't the case for everybody. Your apathy is a middle-class luxury. It's also incredibly irritating and un-constructive.
for someone who fails to see the issue you keep coming back in to the discussion :?
i'm not a fan of inherent blinkered patriotism... as i've already said.. and i've also said that those guys you see in documentaries or on youtube chugging cans of beer and chanting USA USA at the fucking Ryder Cup of all places sums that up.
they believe they live in the greatest country on earth™ because its soaked in from a young age.. its patriotism by osmosis... that guy on this thread proved that. Helen said we all have opportunities across the world, in other countries and given2fly (or whatever he's called) just said 'whatever' and about 8 rolleyed smilies. but he doesnt really 'know' that, its just what he's been programmed to believe... and so you're left thinking "is that it? is that the sum of his defence or the only counterargument that he can offer? "
and that's symptomatic of quite a lot of posters on here, lots of Americans we've met, movies, books, magazine articles, news reports, documentaries, etc...
and i asked earlier in the thread 'WHY is it the greatest country in the world' and the answer given was 'opportunities' and so i asked 'opportunities to do what?' and then the 2nd answer was 'live out your dreams'.
is this a US centric ideal... that only people born there can have a dream and have it be attainable? dare i say it but thats arrogant and pompous. most western 1st world countries offer the same opportunities so that answer is moot. its fallible.
i would guess most people love their countries, most people stay within the country they are born and cheer on their team at sporting events, etc... but you won't see scottish, french, italian, spanish flags flying from every 2nd or 3rd porch... you wont see them stand up at school sports events and sing the national anthem, you wont see politicians wearing pin-badges so as not to offend the patriotic masses... we just have no need to bellow it in many aspects of our lives.