***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

Cliffy6745

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Fixer wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Signed. 3 years, 18 mill.

yep, just has to pass the physical, which should be a formality.

I like the signing, even though I preferred beltre. Like someone mentioned, hopefully they saved some loot to spend on the bullpen and a back of the rotation starter.

I still think smoltz would be a positive signing.

Also, I love having Wagner back in the division. He is a loser. And he has always been a guy that is more fun to root against than root for.

Baseball can't get here soon enough...the other sports just don't compare

Absolutely love Wagner staying in the NL East. He's so inadequate.

Someone really really needs to explain to me what the fuck the Braves front office was thinking when they gave Wagner $7 million and the Red Sox 2 draft picks.

The Juggler

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Fixer wrote:

Absolutely love Wagner staying in the NL East. He's so inadequate.

Someone really really needs to explain to me what the fuck the Braves front office was thinking when they gave Wagner $7 million and the Red Sox 2 draft picks.

yeah i definitely gave my friend who is a HUGE braves fan a hard time over that. that makes no sense to me.

The Juggler

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

Jearlpam0925

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

I'm not goonna get into this thoroughly, but I'll say this....When did Feliz EVER win a gold glove? I know Bonk did. Look at Polanco's fielding PCT. at 3rd over his career compared to Feliz. ALSO, the man has never struck out more than 50 times in a season and he had more walks than K's last season(Feliz number - not so much). That's a one hell of a 2 hole hitter. And now imagine Shane in the 7th hole. This is a huge upgrade offensively and not that much of drop off defensively for not that much more money than you would have given Pedro. Polanco is a fine defensive player with a stellar arm. Second is much harder to play defensively than 3rd - it's all about range. You don't need much of an arm, but you need range. 3rd is all about reaction and an accurate, strong, arm. Polanco has both - range and an arm. People overrate Pedro's third base capabilities like crazy. Okay, maybe not overrate it, but definitely blow it out of proportion.

And, again, between what they've done so far their other two issues were a stellar relief pitcher and a stud on the bench. So with the signings they've made so far do nothing but affirm that they haven't filled those two holes, yet have gotten bargain deals on the like of Schneider and Castro. I still believe Derosa is a possibility. Especially since they'll wanna get him a lot of AB's while spelling Ibanez, Werth, Polanco, Utley, Howard - pretty much does it all.

The Juggler

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

I'm not goonna get into this thoroughly, but I'll say this....When did Feliz EVER win a gold glove? I know Bonk did. Look at Polanco's fielding PCT. at 3rd over his career compared to Feliz. ALSO, the man has never struck out more than 50 times in a season and he had more walks than K's last season(Feliz number - not so much). That's a one hell of a 2 hole hitter. And now imagine Shane in the 7th hole. This is a huge upgrade offensively and not that much of drop off defensively for not that much more money than you would have given Pedro. Polanco is a fine defensive player with a stellar arm. Second is much harder to play defensively than 3rd - it's all about range. You don't need much of an arm, but you need range. 3rd is all about reaction and an accurate, strong, arm. Polanco has both - range and an arm. People overrate Pedro's third base capabilities like crazy. Okay, maybe not overrate it, but definitely blow it out of proportion.

And, again, between what they've done so far their other two issues were a stellar relief pitcher and a stud on the bench. So with the signings they've made so far do nothing but affirm that they haven't filled those two holes, yet have gotten bargain deals on the like of Schneider and Castro. I still believe Derosa is a possibility. Especially since they'll wanna get him a lot of AB's while spelling Ibanez, Werth, Polanco, Utley, Howard - pretty much does it all.

its not that that he is overrated at third. its that he has not rated at third at all in recent seasons. he has not played at 3rd more than 21 games in 8 years. and when he played it for 21 games with us in 03 his fielding percentage was .959. feliz has a career .970 at third. and it does not matter that he hasn't won a gold glove. bobby fricking abreu has one on his mantle. the man plays stellar defense year in year out at that position. and we just replaced him with a guy who has not played there consistently since 2002....scott rolen was on our team back then!

polanco is a good 2nd baseman. but that does not necessarly transalte to the other side of the infield. you dont see too many 2nd basemen make that switch (regular players not utility guys).

but i do agree that he will make our lineup more flexible though. that i will not argue you with. although, i think feliz was serviceable as a guy batting in the 7th hole for us. my point was that feliz is better in the field and with how potent our lineup already is (and has been with feliz batting 7th the past 2 years) i wouldn't have minded if we kept him and brought in derosa for utility help.

with all that said, i'm okay with this. just not overly excited...

Jearlpam0925

The Jeagler wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

I'm not goonna get into this thoroughly, but I'll say this....When did Feliz EVER win a gold glove? I know Bonk did. Look at Polanco's fielding PCT. at 3rd over his career compared to Feliz. ALSO, the man has never struck out more than 50 times in a season and he had more walks than K's last season(Feliz number - not so much). That's a one hell of a 2 hole hitter. And now imagine Shane in the 7th hole. This is a huge upgrade offensively and not that much of drop off defensively for not that much more money than you would have given Pedro. Polanco is a fine defensive player with a stellar arm. Second is much harder to play defensively than 3rd - it's all about range. You don't need much of an arm, but you need range. 3rd is all about reaction and an accurate, strong, arm. Polanco has both - range and an arm. People overrate Pedro's third base capabilities like crazy. Okay, maybe not overrate it, but definitely blow it out of proportion.

And, again, between what they've done so far their other two issues were a stellar relief pitcher and a stud on the bench. So with the signings they've made so far do nothing but affirm that they haven't filled those two holes, yet have gotten bargain deals on the like of Schneider and Castro. I still believe Derosa is a possibility. Especially since they'll wanna get him a lot of AB's while spelling Ibanez, Werth, Polanco, Utley, Howard - pretty much does it all.

its not that that he is overrated at third. its that he has not rated at third at all in recent seasons. he has not played at 3rd more than 21 games in 8 years. and when he played it for 21 games with us in 03 his fielding percentage was .959. feliz has a career .970 at third. and it does not matter that he hasn't won a gold glove. bobby fricking abreu has one on his mantle. the man plays stellar defense year in year out at that position. and we just replaced him with a guy who has not played there consistently since 2002....scott rolen was on our team back then!

polanco is a good 2nd baseman. but that does not necessarly transalte to the other side of the infield. you dont see too many 2nd basemen make that switch (regular players not utility guys).

but i do agree that he will make our lineup more flexible though. that i will not argue you with. although, i think feliz was serviceable as a guy batting in the 7th hole for us. my point was that feliz is better in the field and with how potent our lineup already is (and has been with feliz batting 7th the past 2 years) i wouldn't have minded if we kept him and brought in derosa for utility help.

with all that said, i'm okay with this. just not overly excited...

YOU BE EXCITED!

jamminpearls

Like the signing,not in love with it but i like it. If we were gonna lose feliz's Def id of rather signed deroesa or beltre since they have more pop then planco. But u can't complain because Planco is a gamer and will fill in nicely. I'm not sure if i like moving shane to the 7th hole though,Id rather move planco there then shane. I love jimmy and shane's speed at the top of the lineup.

Jearlpam0925

jamminpearls wrote:

Like the signing,not in love with it but i like it. If we were gonna lose feliz's Def id of rather signed deroesa or beltre since they have more pop then planco. But u can't complain because Planco is a gamer and will fill in nicely. I'm not sure if i like moving shane to the 7th hole though,Id rather move planco there then shane. I love jimmy and shane's speed at the top of the lineup.

This is what I don't get. This team doesn't need anymore pop. We have enough of that. What we need someone who doesn't do what the rest of them do - not strikeout, get on base consistently, intelligently work pitchers. Shane moving to the 7 hole isn't bad at all because now you got a guy who's got a little pop, speed, and you can afford his asinine AB's(swinging at first pitches out of the strike zone - ala costing us baserunners in the World Series since Jimmy wasn't trying to get on base) at the bottom of the lineup. At least someone now at the top of your lineup will be consistently getting on base. I don't think you guys realize how sound of a move this was. And still, do not rule out Derosa from coming here.

Cliffy6745

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Like the signing,not in love with it but i like it. If we were gonna lose feliz's Def id of rather signed deroesa or beltre since they have more pop then planco. But u can't complain because Planco is a gamer and will fill in nicely. I'm not sure if i like moving shane to the 7th hole though,Id rather move planco there then shane. I love jimmy and shane's speed at the top of the lineup.

This is what I don't get. This team doesn't need anymore pop. We have enough of that. What we need someone who doesn't do what the rest of them do - not strikeout, get on base consistently, intelligently work pitchers. Shane moving to the 7 hole isn't bad at all because now you got a guy who's got a little pop, speed, and you can afford his asinine AB's(swinging at first pitches out of the strike zone - ala costing us baserunners in the World Series since Jimmy wasn't trying to get on base) at the bottom of the lineup. At least someone now at the top of your lineup will be consistently getting on base. I don't think you guys realize how sound of a move this was. And still, do not rule out Derosa from coming here.

Victorino and Polanco have basically the same career OBP and Victorino has a had higher OBP the past 2 seasons.

Jearlpam0925

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

jamminpearls wrote:

Like the signing,not in love with it but i like it. If we were gonna lose feliz's Def id of rather signed deroesa or beltre since they have more pop then planco. But u can't complain because Planco is a gamer and will fill in nicely. I'm not sure if i like moving shane to the 7th hole though,Id rather move planco there then shane. I love jimmy and shane's speed at the top of the lineup.

This is what I don't get. This team doesn't need anymore pop. We have enough of that. What we need someone who doesn't do what the rest of them do - not strikeout, get on base consistently, intelligently work pitchers. Shane moving to the 7 hole isn't bad at all because now you got a guy who's got a little pop, speed, and you can afford his asinine AB's(swinging at first pitches out of the strike zone - ala costing us baserunners in the World Series since Jimmy wasn't trying to get on base) at the bottom of the lineup. At least someone now at the top of your lineup will be consistently getting on base. I don't think you guys realize how sound of a move this was. And still, do not rule out Derosa from coming here.

Victorino and Polanco have basically the same career OBP and Victorino has a had higher OBP the past 2 seasons.

That's all well and good, but I want someone smarter at the top of the lineup who works counts - as Polanco's strikeouts over his career show. Either way I think the change is marginal between the two at the top of the lineup, but I want someone who is a little more intelligent at the top - a smarter hitter. Either way, you can't go wrong.

Cliffy6745

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Victorino and Polanco have basically the same career OBP and Victorino has a had higher OBP the past 2 seasons.

That's all well and good, but I want someone smarter at the top of the lineup who works counts - as Polanco's strikeouts over his career show. Either way I think the change is marginal between the two at the top of the lineup, but I want someone who is a little more intelligent at the top - a smarter hitter. Either way, you can't go wrong.

His K numbers are impressive

The Fixer

Someone really really needs to explain to me what the fuck the Braves front office was thinking when they gave Wagner $7 million and the Red Sox 2 draft picks.[/quote]

soriano and gonzalez are both Type A free agents. Both of them want to close, so they probably won't resign with Atlanta. This means the braves will get 1st round picks back. In essence they believe that they upgraded their closer and didn't sacrifice anything (since they will get the pick back they gave up to sign wagner).

I wouldn't want wagner as my closer, so I wouldn't have done it.

The Fixer

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

dude, feliz sucks. he was an automatic out in the playoffs (except for his homer off of joba). Polanco is an upgrade.

DeRosa wants 3 years, $27 million. I would have preferred beltre, but polanco is solid

The Fixer

Jearlpam0925 wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

I'm not goonna get into this thoroughly, but I'll say this....When did Feliz EVER win a gold glove? I know Bonk did. Look at Polanco's fielding PCT. at 3rd over his career compared to Feliz. ALSO, the man has never struck out more than 50 times in a season and he had more walks than K's last season(Feliz number - not so much). That's a one hell of a 2 hole hitter. And now imagine Shane in the 7th hole. This is a huge upgrade offensively and not that much of drop off defensively for not that much more money than you would have given Pedro. Polanco is a fine defensive player with a stellar arm. Second is much harder to play defensively than 3rd - it's all about range. You don't need much of an arm, but you need range. 3rd is all about reaction and an accurate, strong, arm. Polanco has both - range and an arm. People overrate Pedro's third base capabilities like crazy. Okay, maybe not overrate it, but definitely blow it out of proportion.

And, again, between what they've done so far their other two issues were a stellar relief pitcher and a stud on the bench. So with the signings they've made so far do nothing but affirm that they haven't filled those two holes, yet have gotten bargain deals on the like of Schneider and Castro. I still believe Derosa is a possibility. Especially since they'll wanna get him a lot of AB's while spelling Ibanez, Werth, Polanco, Utley, Howard - pretty much does it all.

gold gloves are meaningless. a joke. palmeiro won a gold glove one year and he only played 20 games in the field. and abreu has won one for christ sake and he doesn't even know how to dive for a ball.

I do agree with you that Feliz's defense was somewhat overrated. He is solid, but he doesn't have the best range.

phils aren't getting derosa...no way they're spending 25-30 million on a bench guy. and they shouldn't

The Fixer

That's all well and good, but I want someone smarter at the top of the lineup who works counts - as Polanco's strikeouts over his career show. Either way I think the change is marginal between the two at the top of the lineup, but I want someone who is a little more intelligent at the top - a smarter hitter. Either way, you can't go wrong.[/quote]

polanco actually only saw 3.5 pitches per AB last year. He is a hacker. makes contact, but taking pitches is definitely not his strength.

I do like the signing though...and victorino should hit 6 or 7 (with ibanez potentially move down a slot to 7). Now let's get some pitching!!!

The Juggler

The Fixer wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

dude, feliz sucks. he was an automatic out in the playoffs (except for his homer off of joba). Polanco is an upgrade.

DeRosa wants 3 years, $27 million. I would have preferred beltre, but polanco is solid

um, there were a lot of automatic outs in our lineup during the world series.

dude batted .266 and drove in 81 runs out of the 7th hole. explain to me how that sucks?

and how can you be an overrated 3rd basemen without winning a gold glove?

i don't think you've made a lot of sense in this thread today.

The Fixer

The Jeagler wrote:

The Fixer wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

regarding polanco: i would have rather them signed feliz and derosa as a super utility guy. or go after tejada.

but i am okay with it. i'm just not overly thrilled. i mean we let a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who hit over .300 with risp last year and had 80 rbi's from the 7 hole walk out the door for a guy who didnt enjoy playing there 5 years ago and hasn't played the position regularly since 2001 or so......but i digress. i realize polanco will put the ball into play more often and is an overall better offensive player. i just think that with the rest of this lineup as good as it is, i don't see a problem valuing defense at that spot. i played 3rd waaaaay waaaaaaaay way back in the day and i just enjoyed watching that human vacum cleaner scoop up everything that came his way these past couple years.

it would be nice if they were able to bring in derosa as a super utility guy still. i would think they still have the $$ to do that right?

dude, feliz sucks. he was an automatic out in the playoffs (except for his homer off of joba). Polanco is an upgrade.

DeRosa wants 3 years, $27 million. I would have preferred beltre, but polanco is solid

um, there were a lot of automatic outs in our lineup during the world series.

dude batted .266 and drove in 81 runs out of the 7th hole. explain to me how that sucks?

and how can you be an overrated 3rd basemen without winning a gold glove?

i don't think you've made a lot of sense in this thread today.

HIs RBI totals are a product of the lineup, not a result of him being a productive offensive player. His OBP was .308!!! His OPS+ was 81!! HIs OPS was .694!! He isn't a good offensive player...in fact he is downright terrible.

And gold gloves don't gauge anything. they are more a popularity contest than anything else. Like I said, Palmeiro once won a GG by playing something like 20 games in the field (he DH'd almost every game that year).

Do you think Feliz has good range? he catches what is hit to him, but his range is average.

Bottom line, the phils upgraded the overall 3B position, even if they take a slight hit on defense (which I don't think they will).

Not trying to start a pissing contest here, just saying the team made a good decision by letting Feliz go.

The Juggler

The Fixer wrote:

The Jeagler wrote:

The Fixer wrote:

HIs RBI totals are a product of the lineup, not a result of him being a productive offensive player. His OBP was .308!!! His OPS+ was 81!! HIs OPS was .694!! He isn't a good offensive player...in fact he is downright terrible.

And gold gloves don't gauge anything. they are more a popularity contest than anything else. Like I said, Palmeiro once won a GG by playing something like 20 games in the field (he DH'd almost every game that year).

Do you think Feliz has good range? he catches what is hit to him, but his range is average.

Bottom line, the phils upgraded the overall 3B position, even if they take a slight hit on defense (which I don't think they will).

Not trying to start a pissing contest here, just saying the team made a good decision by letting Feliz go.

well you kinda are starting a pissing contest because on the surface we agree . i have said this is an overal upgrade....just not a huge one. and not one i would have made.

when you have 81 rbis batting behind guys who have 100+ rbis (meaning often times he is up after those guys have cleared the bases), and you bat over .300 with runners in scoring position (traditionally one of this team's weaknesses)...i just dont think anyone with any semblance of baseball knowledge can call him "downright terrible." you can use as many exclamation points as you'd like . the fact remains the guy was pretty clutch for this team out of the 7th hole.

and i agree with you on the gold glove point. i don't know who you are arguing with there, but it's not me. all i said was that he is gold glove worthy and not overrated since he never won one. feliz is one of the better defensive 3rd basemen in the leauge. yes he has good range. again, anyone with any semblance of baseball knowledge can see that just by watching him play.

but again, like i said...i think we both agree that this is a pretty good move. not great. i just think you devalued what his defense has meant to this team over the past 2 seasons and ignored the fact that he was serviceable out of the 7th hole... on an already potent lineup.

The Juggler

seeing that figgins got just 3 mil more/year than polanco from seattle. i now feel even worse about this deal. the guy's 4 years younger and can lead off too. i wonder why we didn't get in the mix for him?

Jearlpam0925

The Jeagler wrote:

seeing that figgins got just 3 mil more/year than polanco from seattle. i now feel even worse about this deal. the guy's 4 years younger and can lead off too. i wonder why we didn't get in the mix for him?

Yeah, 3 mil more per yer over 4 years. In actuality is 12 million more. Thank you, but no thank you, I'll spend that on pitchers.