I'm sure you didn't know that though, since you seem to be new to this baseball stuff
I'm pretty sure that your agitation over Howard's contract has nothing to do with the luxury tax. You just don't like him getting paid that much because you think....
If you go by his WAR for the past few years you will see that there are plenty of better options at his position.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
I'm sure you didn't know that though, since you seem to be new to this baseball stuff
I'm pretty sure that your agitation over Howard's contract has nothing to do with the luxury tax. You just don't like him getting paid that much because you think....
If you go by his WAR for the past few years you will see that there are plenty of better options at his position.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Nah, man. The luxury tax and howard's contract are exactly the problem. The only team in baseball willing to spend over the luxury tax threshold is the yankees. howard's contract will prohibit the phils from re-signing/adding players to keep them at this championship level. My opinion is that howard's decreasing production doesn't even come close to justifying his albatross of a contract.
RBIs are a product of a guy's lineup. They have almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance (see adrian gonzalez). This year howard has something like 50 more ABs with runners on base than anyone else in baseball. And he's still not even leading the league in RBI.
The guy is a decent player that is paid like a great player. That's my beef
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Tex got traded, twice. Gonzalez just got traded.
pujols and fielder are gonna be free agents. it's conceivable they could get less per year than howard got. just like adrian gonzalez did and he is a far superior player
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Tex got traded, twice. Gonzalez just got traded.
Okay true but Howard was top 5 in MVP voting from 2007-2009. So even if there were options out there, why would the Phillies care about any of them when they already had their guy signed? I understand he's not having that great of a year (only slugging .486) but there's no other options for the Phillies. They made Howard, they've signed Howard, and now they got to live with Howard. And I'm fine with that.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Tex got traded, twice. Gonzalez just got traded.
Okay true but Howard was top 5 in MVP voting from 2007-2009. So even if there were options out there, why would the Phillies care about any of them when they already had their guy signed? I understand he's not having that great of a year (only slugging .486) but there's no other options for the Phillies. They made Howard, they've signed Howard, and now they got to live with Howard. And I'm fine with that.
signing him 2 years before he hit free agency was one of the dumbest things in the history of pro sports
EDIT: and MVP voting is nonsense. that voting takes into account opinions of morons like sam donnellon. the writers gave edinson volquez something like 12 votes for NL ROY a couple of years ago. That would have been great except for the fact that he wasn't even eligible for the award. award voting reminds me of all star fan voting
I'm sure you didn't know that though, since you seem to be new to this baseball stuff
I'm pretty sure that your agitation over Howard's contract has nothing to do with the luxury tax. You just don't like him getting paid that much because you think....
If you go by his WAR for the past few years you will see that there are plenty of better options at his position.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Nah, man. The luxury tax and howard's contract are exactly the problem. The only team in baseball willing to spend over the luxury tax threshold is the yankees. howard's contract will prohibit the phils from re-signing/adding players to keep them at this championship level. My opinion is that howard's decreasing production doesn't even come close to justifying his albatross of a contract.
RBIs are a product of a guy's lineup. They have almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance (see adrian gonzalez). This year howard has something like 50 more ABs with runners on base than anyone else in baseball. And he's still not even leading the league in RBI.
The guy is a decent player that is paid like a great player. That's my beef
I guess I have to appreciate a response that doesn't take a personal shot at me or my baseball know-how. I disagree that RBIs have "almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance" but do concede that the numbers show that Howard hasn't come through as much as he should this year. But the year's only half over and I already said after after his crappy series against SF last year that I want to see how Howard's full year this year goes before I jump on the "his contract his ridiculous" bandwagon.
Okay true but Howard was top 5 in MVP voting from 2007-2009. So even if there were options out there, why would the Phillies care about any of them when they already had their guy signed? I understand he's not having that great of a year (only slugging .486) but there's no other options for the Phillies. They made Howard, they've signed Howard, and now they got to live with Howard. And I'm fine with that.
signing him 2 years before he hit free agency was one of the dumbest things in the history of pro sports
Now that's going too far. I agree they should have waited for the last year of his contract. But the history of pro-sports have seen much dumber moves made.
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Tex got traded, twice. Gonzalez just got traded.
pujols and fielder are gonna be free agents. it's conceivable they could get less per year than howard got. just like adrian gonzalez did and he is a far superior player
And Howard should be a free agent. Boston doesn't need a first baseman, so with 3 potentially on the market (Howard being the third best and the oldest) and the Yanks and Boston already set, no shot Howard would get more than $18 mil or so.
You can't say there "weren't" better options because they did it a year and a half early. Even if the Phillies waited, resigned him at $18-$20 (absolute max) a year, $5-$7 million extra to play with is pretty big, especially with a team that won't go over the tax.
I guess I have to appreciate a response that doesn't take a personal shot at me or my baseball know-how. I disagree that RBIs have "almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance" but do concede that the numbers show that Howard hasn't come through as much as he should this year. But the year's only half over and I already said after after his crappy series against SF last year that I want to see how Howard's full year this year goes before I jump on the "his contract his ridiculous" bandwagon.
I don't get personal in these threads. I just like to talk sports.
It took you until the 2010 NLCS? You must have missed the 09 World series.
and yes, worst thing in pro sports was excessive. I'll go with worst thing since the freddy garcia trade
pujols and fielder are gonna be free agents. it's conceivable they could get less per year than howard got. just like adrian gonzalez did and he is a far superior player
And Howard should be a free agent. Boston doesn't need a first baseman, so with 3 potentially on the market (Howard being the third best and the oldest) and the Yanks and Boston already set, no shot Howard would get more than $18 mil or so.
You can't say there "weren't" better options because they did it a year and a half early. Even if the Phillies waited, resigned him at $18-$20 (absolute max) a year, $5-$7 million extra to play with is pretty big, especially with a team that won't go over the tax.
tell me about it man. I cringe every time I think about the absurdity of that contract. horrible
I guess I have to appreciate a response that doesn't take a personal shot at me or my baseball know-how. I disagree that RBIs have "almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance" but do concede that the numbers show that Howard hasn't come through as much as he should this year. But the year's only half over and I already said after after his crappy series against SF last year that I want to see how Howard's full year this year goes before I jump on the "his contract his ridiculous" bandwagon.
I don't get personal in these threads. I just like to talk sports.
It took you until the 2010 NLCS? You must have missed the 09 World series.
and yes, worst thing in pro sports was excessive. I'll go with worst thing since the freddy garcia trade
Well I did attend 4 Pearl Jam concerts in 5 days during the '09 World Series so my memory is a bit cloudy. I remember Howard batting below .200 but so did Victorino and Pedro Feliz. And Rollins had a bad series too so I basically chalked that series under"The Yankees were better" instead of "Howard sucks". He did after all have a good series against the Dodgers in the LCS that year...if I remember correctly.
Fixer did plenty of defending of the Joe Blanton contract, and we are getting jack shit out of that this year. But he's a "good 2nd half pitcher" right?
As Jeags said, the batter in front of Howard was intentionally walked twice this year. And on average it really hasn't worked out. Howard himself has been IBB'ed probably about a dozen times this year.
I don't buy the "we won't pay the luxury tax" thing anyway.
As for the other options:
-Prince Fielder is 400 lbs and his body won't hold up. Cubs will sign him and get another Soriano contract.
-Pujols is not going to leave StL - it would cost way too much and he's older than Howard.
-Teixeira - sorry I'd rather have Howard. BFD - he plays a great 1B. From my eyes Howard's defense has been at least average this year. I mean, range for a 1B? Half the time they're holding a runner on anyway. Tex has had a nice 1st half but I still would take Howard.
-A-Gon - would've had to fight the Red Sox for him and trade away even more prospects. Howard was already here.
-Votto - not a FA for years. He's a great player but hasn't done it for more than a couple years, so we'll see.
-Konerko - was never gonna leave White Sox
Sometimes reasonable analysis is frowned upon in this thread, but there you go.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Fixer did plenty of defending of the Joe Blanton contract, and we are getting jack shit out of that this year. But he's a "good 2nd half pitcher" right?
As Jeags said, the batter in front of Howard was intentionally walked twice this year. And on average it really hasn't worked out. Howard himself has been IBB'ed probably about a dozen times this year.
I don't buy the "we won't pay the luxury tax" thing anyway.
As for the other options:
-Prince Fielder is 400 lbs and his body won't hold up. Cubs will sign him and get another Soriano contract.
-Pujols is not going to leave StL - it would cost way too much and he's older than Howard.
-Teixeira - sorry I'd rather have Howard. BFD - he plays a great 1B. From my eyes Howard's defense has been at least average this year. I mean, range for a 1B? Half the time they're holding a runner on anyway. Tex has had a nice 1st half but I still would take Howard.
-A-Gon - would've had to fight the Red Sox for him and trade away even more prospects. Howard was already here.
-Votto - not a FA for years. He's a great player but hasn't done it for more than a couple years, so we'll see.
-Konerko - was never gonna leave White Sox
Sometimes reasonable analysis is frowned upon in this thread, but there you go.
But like I said, let the market play out and you are paying him $18 mil a year instead of $25. That is more than half of Rollins contact next year.
I would take Teixeira anyday over Howard, better defender, better plate discipline, and a switch hitter. No question in my mind. Average/OBP is down this year but brings more to the table than Howard anyday of the week.
Edit: And Prince Fielder is 27. Over the course of the contract I would bet any amount of money Howard has more injuries than Fielder.
Edit: And unless I can't count, being born in 1979 makes you older than someone born in 1980. It's just a couple months, but still.
But like I said, let the market play out and you are paying him $18 mil a year instead of $25. That is more than half of Rollins contact next year.
I would take Teixeira anyday over Howard, better defender, better plate discipline, and a switch hitter. No question in my mind. Average/OBP is down this year but brings more to the table than Howard anyday of the week.
Or you could end up with nobody at 1B.
Tex is as much or more overpaid than Howard, so I don't know how you have any room to talk here. $22m per over 8(!) years; Howard $23M per over 6 years (he's getting $25M for 3 seasons - next 2 years he's getting $20M). You guys have your numbers a little messed up.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Fixer did plenty of defending of the Joe Blanton contract, and we are getting jack shit out of that this year. But he's a "good 2nd half pitcher" right?
As Jeags said, the batter in front of Howard was intentionally walked twice this year. And on average it really hasn't worked out. Howard himself has been IBB'ed probably about a dozen times this year.
I don't buy the "we won't pay the luxury tax" thing anyway.
As for the other options:
-Prince Fielder is 400 lbs and his body won't hold up. Cubs will sign him and get another Soriano contract.
-Pujols is not going to leave StL - it would cost way too much and he's older than Howard.
-Teixeira - sorry I'd rather have Howard. BFD - he plays a great 1B. From my eyes Howard's defense has been at least average this year. I mean, range for a 1B? Half the time they're holding a runner on anyway. Tex has had a nice 1st half but I still would take Howard.
-A-Gon - would've had to fight the Red Sox for him and trade away even more prospects. Howard was already here.
-Votto - not a FA for years. He's a great player but hasn't done it for more than a couple years, so we'll see.
-Konerko - was never gonna leave White Sox
Sometimes reasonable analysis is frowned upon in this thread, but there you go.
But like I said, let the market play out and you are paying him $18 mil a year instead of $25. That is more than half of Rollins contact next year.
I would take Teixeira anyday over Howard, better defender, better plate discipline, and a switch hitter. No question in my mind. Average/OBP is down this year but brings more to the table than Howard anyday of the week.
Edit: And Prince Fielder is 27. Over the course of the contract I would bet any amount of money Howard has more injuries than Fielder.
Edit: And unless I can't count, being born in 1979 makes you older than someone born in 1980. It's just a couple months, but still.
can't be another team thread anywhere that talks about contracts in the middle of the season as much as this one.
i guess having the best record in baseball and playing the team with the 2nd best in a 3-game series isn't interesting enough.
can't be another team thread anywhere that talks about contracts in the middle of the season as much as this one.
i guess having the best record in baseball and playing the team with the 2nd best in a 3-game series isn't interesting enough.
I know. Live in the moment a little.
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
Also, it's only in the top 5 most egregious contracts on this team right now behind Blanton, Lidge, Ibanez and Baez.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
But like I said, let the market play out and you are paying him $18 mil a year instead of $25. That is more than half of Rollins contact next year.
I would take Teixeira anyday over Howard, better defender, better plate discipline, and a switch hitter. No question in my mind. Average/OBP is down this year but brings more to the table than Howard anyday of the week.
Or you could end up with nobody at 1B.
Tex is as much or more overpaid than Howard, so I don't know how you have any room to talk here. $22m per over 8(!) years; Howard $23M per over 6 years (he's getting $25M for 3 seasons - next 2 years he's getting $20M). You guys have your numbers a little messed up.
I would bet Teixeira is going to be a better player over the next 5 years than Howard. Howard had the worst season of his career last year and is off to a worse start this year. Plus, the Yankees will go well over $200 million in payroll so it's irrelevant. Teixeiras contract has much less of an impact on the Yankees payroll and flexibility than Howards has on the Phillies and that's the whole point.
You think Tex is overpaind, wait till you see what CC gets this winter.
Edit: And if they win it's a moot point, but with an old team, you need flexibility to make moves.
I would bet Teixeira is going to be a better player over the next 5 years than Howard. Howard had the worst season of his career last year and is off to a worse start this year. Plus, the Yankees will go well over $200 million in payroll so it's irrelevant. Teixeiras contract has much less of an impact on the Yankees payroll and flexibility than Howards has on the Phillies and that's the whole point.
You think Tex is overpaind, wait till you see what CC gets this winter.
The Tex contract started in 2009.
If you want to count the $10M buyout as part of the 5 years and ignore the 6th year that's fine. Bending the numbers to suit your argument is always in play. But to me it looks like 23 per for 6 years.
As for who's going to be better, that's a matter of opinion. A large part of 2010 being Howard's worst year was his badly sprained ankle in June. As for 2011, well he's traditionally been a better player in the 2nd half, so we'll see. But yeah, he hasn't really lit the world on fire so far.
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.
If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
I would bet Teixeira is going to be a better player over the next 5 years than Howard. Howard had the worst season of his career last year and is off to a worse start this year. Plus, the Yankees will go well over $200 million in payroll so it's irrelevant. Teixeiras contract has much less of an impact on the Yankees payroll and flexibility than Howards has on the Phillies and that's the whole point.
You think Tex is overpaind, wait till you see what CC gets this winter.
The Tex contract started in 2009.
If you want to count the $10M buyout as part of the 5 years and ignore the 6th year that's fine. Bending the numbers to suit your argument is always in play. But to me it looks like 23 per for 6 years.
As for who's going to be better, that's a matter of opinion. A large part of 2010 being Howard's worst year was his badly sprained ankle in June. As for 2011, well he's traditionally been a better player in the 2nd half, so we'll see. But yeah, he hasn't really lit the world on fire so far.
It did start in 2009 but I am looking at moving forward in which they will be locked up at essentially the same age for the same number of years.
It's not twisting numbers. If you think the Philles are going to be paying Ryan Howard $23 million in 2017, you're crazy. They will buy him out and it will be $25 over 5 years.
I hear you, it's just looking like a trend in the wrong direction.
It's not twisting numbers. If you think the Philles are going to be paying Ryan Howard $23 million in 2017, you're crazy. They will buy him out and it will be $25 over 5 years.
It would effectively be $13M, since they have to pay $10M anyway. It's not crazy to think he'll be worth $13M that year. Of course, a lot can happen in the meantime.
I read a quote in the offseason from I think Mike Arbuckle - or somebody in the Phillies org. They said they just want Howard to drive in runs. Maybe Bill James and stat-heads don't care about RBI's, but I can tell you the team certainly does. He's on pace (71 thru 87 games projects to 132) to be about where he was in 2006-09 (149, 136, 146, 141) this year in that regard, and the rest of the offense is clearly not as good as it was in those years (Utley missed a lot of time, no Werth behind him, Rollins isn't an MVP this year, etc.). So, yeah, I think he's getting the job done, even if it doesn't always look pretty.
I understand that Yankees fans are happy with Tex even if his numbers don't really support the contract he's getting, and most Phillies fans kind of feel the same way about R6. (with some exceptions, of course)
Spectrum 10/27/09; New Orleans JazzFest 5/1/10; Made in America 9/2/12; WF Center 10/21/13; WF Center 10/22/13; Baltimore 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22; Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Howard is appreciated i'd say a very small group of people complain about him. Come to think of it i know only 2 fans and there both on here. He frustrates the hell out of me sometimes but in the long run the guys a run producing machine. 6 years ago if we were told we'd have a 1st basemen who will hit 35-45 hrsand drive in 125-140 rbi's NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN. But some people have become spoiled and over analyze everything to the point were the have to find something wrong with him. Travis Lee and his awesome Def are missed
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.
If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).
So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.
If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).
So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and until he becomes an over-paid freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.
If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).
So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
Tied for the MLB lead in any category is good. 71 rbi's is pretty damn good with as the fixer says slop around him.
Comments
I'm pretty sure that your agitation over Howard's contract has nothing to do with the luxury tax. You just don't like him getting paid that much because you think....
I'm not gonna argue that guys like Joey Votto and Albert Pujols aren't better players than Howard because they are. But to suggest their were plenty of better OPTIONS out there is silly. Top guys like that aren't going anywhere...and right beneath them is Howard who is always near the league-lead in RBIs....even if his WAR has plummeted.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Tex got traded, twice. Gonzalez just got traded.
Nah, man. The luxury tax and howard's contract are exactly the problem. The only team in baseball willing to spend over the luxury tax threshold is the yankees. howard's contract will prohibit the phils from re-signing/adding players to keep them at this championship level. My opinion is that howard's decreasing production doesn't even come close to justifying his albatross of a contract.
RBIs are a product of a guy's lineup. They have almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance (see adrian gonzalez). This year howard has something like 50 more ABs with runners on base than anyone else in baseball. And he's still not even leading the league in RBI.
The guy is a decent player that is paid like a great player. That's my beef
pujols and fielder are gonna be free agents. it's conceivable they could get less per year than howard got. just like adrian gonzalez did and he is a far superior player
Okay true but Howard was top 5 in MVP voting from 2007-2009. So even if there were options out there, why would the Phillies care about any of them when they already had their guy signed? I understand he's not having that great of a year (only slugging .486) but there's no other options for the Phillies. They made Howard, they've signed Howard, and now they got to live with Howard. And I'm fine with that.
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signing him 2 years before he hit free agency was one of the dumbest things in the history of pro sports
EDIT: and MVP voting is nonsense. that voting takes into account opinions of morons like sam donnellon. the writers gave edinson volquez something like 12 votes for NL ROY a couple of years ago. That would have been great except for the fact that he wasn't even eligible for the award. award voting reminds me of all star fan voting
I guess I have to appreciate a response that doesn't take a personal shot at me or my baseball know-how. I disagree that RBIs have "almost nothing to do with an individual's ability or performance" but do concede that the numbers show that Howard hasn't come through as much as he should this year. But the year's only half over and I already said after after his crappy series against SF last year that I want to see how Howard's full year this year goes before I jump on the "his contract his ridiculous" bandwagon.
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Now that's going too far. I agree they should have waited for the last year of his contract. But the history of pro-sports have seen much dumber moves made.
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And Howard should be a free agent. Boston doesn't need a first baseman, so with 3 potentially on the market (Howard being the third best and the oldest) and the Yanks and Boston already set, no shot Howard would get more than $18 mil or so.
You can't say there "weren't" better options because they did it a year and a half early. Even if the Phillies waited, resigned him at $18-$20 (absolute max) a year, $5-$7 million extra to play with is pretty big, especially with a team that won't go over the tax.
I don't get personal in these threads. I just like to talk sports.
It took you until the 2010 NLCS? You must have missed the 09 World series.
and yes, worst thing in pro sports was excessive. I'll go with worst thing since the freddy garcia trade
tell me about it man. I cringe every time I think about the absurdity of that contract. horrible
Well I did attend 4 Pearl Jam concerts in 5 days during the '09 World Series so my memory is a bit cloudy. I remember Howard batting below .200 but so did Victorino and Pedro Feliz. And Rollins had a bad series too so I basically chalked that series under"The Yankees were better" instead of "Howard sucks". He did after all have a good series against the Dodgers in the LCS that year...if I remember correctly.
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As Jeags said, the batter in front of Howard was intentionally walked twice this year. And on average it really hasn't worked out. Howard himself has been IBB'ed probably about a dozen times this year.
I don't buy the "we won't pay the luxury tax" thing anyway.
As for the other options:
-Prince Fielder is 400 lbs and his body won't hold up. Cubs will sign him and get another Soriano contract.
-Pujols is not going to leave StL - it would cost way too much and he's older than Howard.
-Teixeira - sorry I'd rather have Howard. BFD - he plays a great 1B. From my eyes Howard's defense has been at least average this year. I mean, range for a 1B? Half the time they're holding a runner on anyway. Tex has had a nice 1st half but I still would take Howard.
-A-Gon - would've had to fight the Red Sox for him and trade away even more prospects. Howard was already here.
-Votto - not a FA for years. He's a great player but hasn't done it for more than a couple years, so we'll see.
-Konerko - was never gonna leave White Sox
Sometimes reasonable analysis is frowned upon in this thread, but there you go.
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
But like I said, let the market play out and you are paying him $18 mil a year instead of $25. That is more than half of Rollins contact next year.
I would take Teixeira anyday over Howard, better defender, better plate discipline, and a switch hitter. No question in my mind. Average/OBP is down this year but brings more to the table than Howard anyday of the week.
Edit: And Prince Fielder is 27. Over the course of the contract I would bet any amount of money Howard has more injuries than Fielder.
Edit: And unless I can't count, being born in 1979 makes you older than someone born in 1980. It's just a couple months, but still.
Or you could end up with nobody at 1B.
Tex is as much or more overpaid than Howard, so I don't know how you have any room to talk here. $22m per over 8(!) years; Howard $23M per over 6 years (he's getting $25M for 3 seasons - next 2 years he's getting $20M). You guys have your numbers a little messed up.
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
can't be another team thread anywhere that talks about contracts in the middle of the season as much as this one.
i guess having the best record in baseball and playing the team with the 2nd best in a 3-game series isn't interesting enough.
I know. Live in the moment a little.
By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.
Also, it's only in the top 5 most egregious contracts on this team right now behind Blanton, Lidge, Ibanez and Baez.
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Tex:
11-16:$22.5M annually
Howard:
12:$20M, 13:$20M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$25M, 17:$23M club option ($10M buyout)
That equals $25 million a year for 5 years.
I would bet Teixeira is going to be a better player over the next 5 years than Howard. Howard had the worst season of his career last year and is off to a worse start this year. Plus, the Yankees will go well over $200 million in payroll so it's irrelevant. Teixeiras contract has much less of an impact on the Yankees payroll and flexibility than Howards has on the Phillies and that's the whole point.
You think Tex is overpaind, wait till you see what CC gets this winter.
Edit: And if they win it's a moot point, but with an old team, you need flexibility to make moves.
The Tex contract started in 2009.
If you want to count the $10M buyout as part of the 5 years and ignore the 6th year that's fine. Bending the numbers to suit your argument is always in play. But to me it looks like 23 per for 6 years.
As for who's going to be better, that's a matter of opinion. A large part of 2010 being Howard's worst year was his badly sprained ankle in June. As for 2011, well he's traditionally been a better player in the 2nd half, so we'll see. But yeah, he hasn't really lit the world on fire so far.
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.
If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
It did start in 2009 but I am looking at moving forward in which they will be locked up at essentially the same age for the same number of years.
It's not twisting numbers. If you think the Philles are going to be paying Ryan Howard $23 million in 2017, you're crazy. They will buy him out and it will be $25 over 5 years.
I hear you, it's just looking like a trend in the wrong direction.
It would effectively be $13M, since they have to pay $10M anyway. It's not crazy to think he'll be worth $13M that year. Of course, a lot can happen in the meantime.
I read a quote in the offseason from I think Mike Arbuckle - or somebody in the Phillies org. They said they just want Howard to drive in runs. Maybe Bill James and stat-heads don't care about RBI's, but I can tell you the team certainly does. He's on pace (71 thru 87 games projects to 132) to be about where he was in 2006-09 (149, 136, 146, 141) this year in that regard, and the rest of the offense is clearly not as good as it was in those years (Utley missed a lot of time, no Werth behind him, Rollins isn't an MVP this year, etc.). So, yeah, I think he's getting the job done, even if it doesn't always look pretty.
I understand that Yankees fans are happy with Tex even if his numbers don't really support the contract he's getting, and most Phillies fans kind of feel the same way about R6. (with some exceptions, of course)
WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18; Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22;
Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
ZACK.DUKE. :thumbup:
Please no Sheets,Shields,Lilly. I'd be happy with Oswalt,Westbrook,Myers, Haren and i'm not even sure if he's on the block but Zach Duke.
Love how you 2 twist shit around.
That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).
So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
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Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.