this is true. but here is what i've been trying to say.
this guy was in the wrong AFTER she said no. AAAAFFFFTTTEEERRRR she said no. not before. after. the second she said no and he kept on, he became the wrong guy.
however, everything before that was innocent. and in that case, she made as many decisions and actions as he did. she invited a strange man over to her house on a cold and lonely night and dressed sexy for it. everything in here points to her wanting to fool around and he picked up on it. and there is nothing wrong with that. there's not a woman in here who wouldn't flip the fuck out if i was sending a girl flowers at work and whisking her out for romantic dinners while fucking dozens of girls on the side... becos my actions towards that girl say things even if my words are neutral. they would feel i wa lying to and deceiving said girl on the basis of my actions. same thing here, all signs pointed to "let's get it on." maybe she wanted to but changed her mind, or maybe she never did. but he is perfectly reasonable for thinking that's what she wanted.
regardless of her motives, the second she said no, he should have stopped. period. that is when he becomes culpable and his actions are wrong. up to then, he is utterly reasonable and behaving like anyone else might, and she is a willing and active participant in things. it is only after she says no that he should or is even capable of realizing his perceptions were wrong. she did not ask for harassment or rape. but she did invite him making a move. once he did and was shot down, he should have packed up and left becos harassment is not what she asked for. but to say there is nothing in this scenario that could possibly be interpreted as maybe she wanted to have a little fun is ridiculous. im sorry it got out of hand, but it was not until the guy disregarded her saying no that he became a bad guy. up until then, he was only reacting to what she was saying and doing.
Most logical and well-thought out post here, and what many of us have been trying to say. Well done. Some people look too hard to make someone the 'victim' because they want to identify with that person, rather than looking at a situation rationally and accounting all actions that are made into the equation.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
yes. you are welcome to your hopes and expectations based on your perceptions.
no. you are not allowed to force the other party to live up to them once it is clear they have said they will not.
is this really so hard for you all to comprehend?
That's the whole point. I can hope he'll pay for the date, but if he says no, or doesn't want to, or changes his mind, that's within his right and I have no right to expect or force anything more. If I start reaching in his wallet and saying "well how about if I just take $100? No? Well how bout just $50? Come on you're dressed so nice, what was I supposed to expect?" - It's pretty clear how ridiculous that is. Likewise, it's fine for a guy or girl to hope to have sex...it crosses the line when the person sets a boundary by saying "no" and it's not respected. Agreed - very simple to comprehend
but you created and continue to create a situation that may not have happened (her dressing sexy, acting like a booty call, etc.). Until she comes back on and gives more details there really isn't any other place for this conversation to go other than even further examples of speculation. I'm out.
Well, based on simple facts alone, it sounds equally probable that it was or wasnt a booty call. He's not created that scenario. I havent seen him post anywhere that it was definitely a booty call, but im happy with assuming that the guy could easily percieve it as such based on:
1 - invited over to house of someone you dont know that well
2 - the date couldve gone to a coffee shop or cinema or something
(she says the snow was bad, but he managed to make his way over didnt he?)
Alternatively theres the perception that its just a movie in her house n a snowy night.
1 - Its a snowy night, cant go out, may as well have someone over and not be alone
2 - she's met him at some point before and obviously got along, so why not?
the point is that the posters here are not creating those perceptions. The people at the time did. if you try weigh up the facts when youre the guy OR the girl in that scenario then there's two possibilites - Sex, or No sex.
All the guy in question did (again, BEFORE HE WAS TOLD "NO") was make a wrong decision?
After that, he arguably shows his true colours, which is maybe what is making you presume the girl is "innocent" and the guy "guilty". My point would be that wanting sex or thinking someone might like you is not something that warrants such an attitude of "right or wrong". His behaviour afterwards does warrant it, but he's human, and thinking of sex or wanting it is not a "right or wrong" thing in relatively normal circumstances.
Indian Summer, you're an ass. After she said no there is no fucking excuse, it doesn't matter if she's a nudist. Seriously, assholes like you give dudes bad names.
"hey I came 2 ur house in the snow u gotta give me sex. lol"
She shouldn't have invited him to her home if she was not going to fool around with him.
He shouldn't have assumed they would because she did.
I would never invite a casual acquaintance into my home. Period.
I was recently out with a friend and he is one of the most unassuming people I have ever met. Regardless, I did not invite him into my home.
I don't blame him or her. But when someone says no, it means no.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
also, inviting skeevy dudes to your house is fucking retarded. I don't know how well you know this dude, but from the way he acted I guess not very long.
She shouldn't have invited him to her home if she was not going to fool around with him.
He shouldn't have assumed they would because she did.
I would never invite a casual acquaintance into my home. Period.
I was recently out with a friend and he is one of the most unassuming people I have ever met. Regardless, I did not invite him into my home.
I don't blame him or her. But when someone says no, it means no.
Seriously? Inviting someone to your house shouldn't be that much of a matter. It is this retardedly sex obsessed culture we live in that fucks everything up. I really don't see why inviting someone over your house should be synonymous with sex.
Seriously? Inviting someone to your house shouldn't be that much of a matter. It is this retardedly sex obsessed culture we live in that fucks everything up. I really don't see why inviting someone over your house should be synonymous with sex.
so now all men are guilty of any crimes you think they might possibly commit? if i say hello and you think "jesus, he could rape me" then i am guilty of sexual harassment and assault? if you go on a blind date and the guy turns out to be kinda ugly and creepy, you should be able to press charges based on him making you feel uncomfortable, regardless of what he did?
No, because you can't press charges for being creepy.
But, that does mean he's crossed a line. It's like you said in one of your previous posts: He's the bad guy after she said no. If he continues to press her after she said no, he's crossed that line, and the situation is a lack of self-restraint on the guy's part.
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Indian Summer, you're an ass. After she said no there is no fucking excuse, it doesn't matter if she's a nudist. Seriously, assholes like you give dudes bad names.
"hey I came 2 ur house in the snow u gotta give me sex. lol"
also, inviting skeevy dudes to your house is fucking retarded. I don't know how well you know this dude, but from the way he acted I guess not very long.
As a warning, if you invite me over to watch some dumb fucking movie, fully expect me to make a move early. This way if you turn me down, maybe I'd still make happy hour..
hehehehehe:)
I would want to get down to business as soon as possible!!
And so the lion fell in love with the lamb...,"
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
No, because you can't press charges for being creepy.
But, that does mean he's crossed a line. It's like you said in one of your previous posts: He's the bad guy after she said no. If he continues to press her after she said no, he's crossed that line, and the situation is a lack of self-restraint on the guy's part.
you said:
"It doesn't have to go as far as rape. It's an imbalance of power I'm referring to. That threat or that feeling like a situation is out of your control."
ignoring a no is definitely harassment. but going by this, i assumed you meant anytime a woman is intimidated or uncomfortable in a situation, the guy is at fault for sexual harassment becos she perceives an imbalance of power. that's utterly ridiculous.
That's the whole point. I can hope he'll pay for the date, but if he says no, or doesn't want to, or changes his mind, that's within his right and I have no right to expect or force anything more. If I start reaching in his wallet and saying "well how about if I just take $100? No? Well how bout just $50? Come on you're dressed so nice, what was I supposed to expect?" - It's pretty clear how ridiculous that is. Likewise, it's fine for a guy or girl to hope to have sex...it crosses the line when the person sets a boundary by saying "no" and it's not respected. Agreed - very simple to comprehend
that was my point and that is why what she was wearing comes into play. her clothes in conjunction with many other things might have lead him to believe or hope there was more to follow. that does not entitle him to take it from her. but it also does not make him a horrible person to be disappointed when his hopes or expectations were not met and he felt mislead. his behavior afterwards is inexcusable, but she acted like it was a big deal and she specifically made mention of her clothing, which indicates to me she's slightly self conscious on that point. im glad she's ok and i hope she won't try this sort of thing again becos next time she may not be so lucky.
also, if this had been a guy she liked and wanted to sleep with and everything else had been the same and he had not made any moves all night, she would be on here in this post bitching about how guys dont pick up on anything and what does she have to do to get his attention.
This girl I know was bitching to me about how some guy she went on a date with made a move on her after she invited him back to her house, it was a first date, but during our conversation she ended up admitting she would be just as mad if he hadn't made a move! Crazy but true, you just can't win with some women.
Seriously? Inviting someone to your house shouldn't be that much of a matter. It is this retardedly sex obsessed culture we live in that fucks everything up. I really don't see why inviting someone over your house should be synonymous with sex.
I really hate people.
Seriously? Could it be that you just despise men? Do you realize men are driven by sex? I can never understand how women are still clueless about men, or just refuse to accept them. I believe it's this very 'awful' society, as you say, that protects women from the 'caveman' mentality that had evolved and is ingrained deep in mans' brains.
If you look at most other species, the male by and large takes what he wants. Sexually, territorially, whatever. Sure, there are courtships in many instances, but there is little protection or repurcussions for the male to do what he pleases and when. Is it right or wrong? It's nature, and it is what drives the success of species. That being said, that mentality was with us at some point, and really hasn't been challenged until fairly recently (historically). Our society has changed/evolved to make women more equal in the procreation equation, thus stymying (sp?) many a mans sexual advancements or aggression.
Obviously any sort of malicious behavior or intent on the part of a man (or woman) either emotionally or physically/sexually is taboo in our society and cannot be viewed favorably. It is up to every individual in this society to behave appropriately and within the boundaries, if they expect to remain in this society. However, you can't ignore biology, history and the way of the world. While it's great to imagine a utopia where everyone has the same sexual drive as you, same mannerisms and same view of wrong/right, that is just fantasy land and you are setting yourself up for disappointment (or worse). While this girl shouldn't expect everyone man to be a jerk, she SHOULD understand that most men would take her actions as flirtatious, and EXPECT that SOME men out there MAY act inappropriately, ESPECIALLY, and here's the key, men she doesn't even know!
To take someone's analogy, if you buy a high end sports car, you would be stupid to park it in a shoddy neighborhood that you know nothing about. Sure, it would be nice if everyone respected your property, but if you're stupid about said property, don't be surprised when something happens. Crime happens, no matter if you like it or not, it's your job to avoid those situations.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
"It doesn't have to go as far as rape. It's an imbalance of power I'm referring to. That threat or that feeling like a situation is out of your control."
ignoring a no is definitely harassment. but going by this, i assumed you meant anytime a woman is intimidated or uncomfortable in a situation, the guy is at fault for sexual harassment becos she perceives an imbalance of power. that's utterly ridiculous.
Oh, sorry. I meant, the imbalance of power after she says "No."
And I agree, perceiving an imbalance of power doesn't warrant crying "harassment!", because almost anything is offensive nowadays. (Like the thing in Australia about Santa Claus not being allowed to say "Ho, ho, ho!" anymore. wtf?)
But it's very hard to describe how it feels when that line has been crossed and someone has exerted that kind of power over you. I have several friends who have been raped, and it... I know this sounds like an exaggeration, but it's been almost crippling to them.
It's something that makes a victim of these types of things question everything. "Was it something I said?" or "Maybe I shouldn't have worn that," or "Maybe I came onto him," or "How will I ever be intimate with another man again?" Which is terrible because it's never ever the victim's fault. Like everyone else said, "No" means "No".
drivingrl: "Will I ever get to meet Gwen Stefani?"
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Seriously? Inviting someone to your house shouldn't be that much of a matter. It is this retardedly sex obsessed culture we live in that fucks everything up. I really don't see why inviting someone over your house should be synonymous with sex.
I really hate people.
But it is.
Dont hate people, please. That is depressing to me.
This day and age, no one is invited in my home unless I know them. (very well)
I am not going to go into detail on a public message board, but it is just not wise to let anyone into your home. Or give out your address.. Or give out your sexual kinks unless you are a lonely desperate fool.
It stinks yes, but it is intelligent.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
But it is.
Dont hate people, please. That is depressing to me.
This day and age, no one is invited in my home unless I know them. (very well)
I am not going to go into detail on a public message board, but it is just not wise to let anyone into your home. Or give out your address.. Or give out your sexual kinks unless you are a lonely desperate fool.
It stinks yes, but it is intelligent.
exactly. to me, it is just common safety sense. you don't go to a strange guy's house either. have I done it in the past? yes, but I was being stupid. This girl acted very well in the situation. She made it clear that she was not comfortable and kicked him out. I have done this too! That's all anyone can do.
Crime happens, no matter if you like it or not, it's your job to avoid those situations.
No...it's good judgment to take steps and make decisions that will increase your safety and not put yourself in risky situations it's your job not to break the law. If crime happens the only person responsible is the person who made the choice to violate the law. We're rational, thinking beings with the ability to make decisions, regardless of biology, history, etc.
Last weekend, I invited a man over to watch videos since the snow didn't call for going out for coffee. This guy took the invitation as sexual rights. Except for him (respecting) my "No's", I'd say he did everything but rape me. He said I was asking for it by the way I was dressed. And if I wouldn't do this, would I do that? And since I wouldn't do that, would I do this? In the words of Avril Lavigne, it was "badder than it sounds." I held the door open for him to leave and that took 15 painful minutes.
The experience rates #2 in my top two worst times with a male. (The first, worst time being when I nearly divorced yet managed to help write a few hit songs...)
...
You know what would have stopped him dead in his tracks?
"Well... I would bang you... but, my genital herpes is flaring up right now."
OR
"Is that a half a roll of Tum in your pants... or are you happy to see me?"
OR
"I would... but I don't know if my Haitian interveneous drug using male prostitute boyfriend will drop by."
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
But it is.
Dont hate people, please. That is depressing to me.
This day and age, no one is invited in my home unless I know them. (very well)
I am not going to go into detail on a public message board, but it is just not wise to let anyone into your home. Or give out your address.. Or give out your sexual kinks unless you are a lonely desperate fool.
It stinks yes, but it is intelligent.
Come on Trixie you know your sexual kinks have always been safe with me
Van 92.07.21 / Van 98.07.19 / Sea 98.07.22 / Tor 98.08.22 / Sea 00.11.06 / Van 03.05.30/ Van 05.09.02/ Gorge 06.07.22 & 23 / EV Van 08.04.02 / Tor 09.08.21 / Sea 09.09.21 & 22 / Van 09.09.25 / Van 11.09.25 / Van 13.12.04 / Pem 16.07.17 / Sea 18.08.10
But it is.
Dont hate people, please. That is depressing to me.
This day and age, no one is invited in my home unless I know them. (very well)
I am not going to go into detail on a public message board, but it is just not wise to let anyone into your home. Or give out your address.. Or give out your sexual kinks unless you are a lonely desperate fool.
It stinks yes, but it is intelligent.
Shit I wouldn't do that on the internet either. But I'm quite set in my misanthropic ways.
I have been seeing a nice guy once a week for over a month now.
But I answered my door to my neighbor, with whom I met at the gym, then shot some hoops with and again I'm in agony for not going to bed with him. GRRRR...
Please, someone, tell me not to do the neighbor.
Now that's fucking hilarious!!!! Thanks for the laugh.....and now for an Everclear quote:
"You put yourself in stupid places, yes I think you know its true. Situations where its easy to look down on you. I think you like to be the victim, I think you like to be in pain. I think you make yourself the victim almost every single day."
Comments
Most logical and well-thought out post here, and what many of us have been trying to say. Well done. Some people look too hard to make someone the 'victim' because they want to identify with that person, rather than looking at a situation rationally and accounting all actions that are made into the equation.
nowadays hits you when you're young
Well, based on simple facts alone, it sounds equally probable that it was or wasnt a booty call. He's not created that scenario. I havent seen him post anywhere that it was definitely a booty call, but im happy with assuming that the guy could easily percieve it as such based on:
1 - invited over to house of someone you dont know that well
2 - the date couldve gone to a coffee shop or cinema or something
(she says the snow was bad, but he managed to make his way over didnt he?)
Alternatively theres the perception that its just a movie in her house n a snowy night.
1 - Its a snowy night, cant go out, may as well have someone over and not be alone
2 - she's met him at some point before and obviously got along, so why not?
the point is that the posters here are not creating those perceptions. The people at the time did. if you try weigh up the facts when youre the guy OR the girl in that scenario then there's two possibilites - Sex, or No sex.
All the guy in question did (again, BEFORE HE WAS TOLD "NO") was make a wrong decision?
After that, he arguably shows his true colours, which is maybe what is making you presume the girl is "innocent" and the guy "guilty". My point would be that wanting sex or thinking someone might like you is not something that warrants such an attitude of "right or wrong". His behaviour afterwards does warrant it, but he's human, and thinking of sex or wanting it is not a "right or wrong" thing in relatively normal circumstances.
"hey I came 2 ur house in the snow u gotta give me sex. lol"
He shouldn't have assumed they would because she did.
I would never invite a casual acquaintance into my home. Period.
I was recently out with a friend and he is one of the most unassuming people I have ever met. Regardless, I did not invite him into my home.
I don't blame him or her. But when someone says no, it means no.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
I'm still invited right?
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
I really hate people.
can I come over?
No, because you can't press charges for being creepy.
But, that does mean he's crossed a line. It's like you said in one of your previous posts: He's the bad guy after she said no. If he continues to press her after she said no, he's crossed that line, and the situation is a lack of self-restraint on the guy's part.
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"
First I'm and asshole....
...then you agree with me.....
Doesn't that make you an asshole as well?
hehehehehe:)
I would want to get down to business as soon as possible!!
"What a stupid lamb."
"What a sick, masochistic lion."
you said:
"It doesn't have to go as far as rape. It's an imbalance of power I'm referring to. That threat or that feeling like a situation is out of your control."
ignoring a no is definitely harassment. but going by this, i assumed you meant anytime a woman is intimidated or uncomfortable in a situation, the guy is at fault for sexual harassment becos she perceives an imbalance of power. that's utterly ridiculous.
that was my point and that is why what she was wearing comes into play. her clothes in conjunction with many other things might have lead him to believe or hope there was more to follow. that does not entitle him to take it from her. but it also does not make him a horrible person to be disappointed when his hopes or expectations were not met and he felt mislead. his behavior afterwards is inexcusable, but she acted like it was a big deal and she specifically made mention of her clothing, which indicates to me she's slightly self conscious on that point. im glad she's ok and i hope she won't try this sort of thing again becos next time she may not be so lucky.
This girl I know was bitching to me about how some guy she went on a date with made a move on her after she invited him back to her house, it was a first date, but during our conversation she ended up admitting she would be just as mad if he hadn't made a move! Crazy but true, you just can't win with some women.
Seriously? Could it be that you just despise men? Do you realize men are driven by sex? I can never understand how women are still clueless about men, or just refuse to accept them. I believe it's this very 'awful' society, as you say, that protects women from the 'caveman' mentality that had evolved and is ingrained deep in mans' brains.
If you look at most other species, the male by and large takes what he wants. Sexually, territorially, whatever. Sure, there are courtships in many instances, but there is little protection or repurcussions for the male to do what he pleases and when. Is it right or wrong? It's nature, and it is what drives the success of species. That being said, that mentality was with us at some point, and really hasn't been challenged until fairly recently (historically). Our society has changed/evolved to make women more equal in the procreation equation, thus stymying (sp?) many a mans sexual advancements or aggression.
Obviously any sort of malicious behavior or intent on the part of a man (or woman) either emotionally or physically/sexually is taboo in our society and cannot be viewed favorably. It is up to every individual in this society to behave appropriately and within the boundaries, if they expect to remain in this society. However, you can't ignore biology, history and the way of the world. While it's great to imagine a utopia where everyone has the same sexual drive as you, same mannerisms and same view of wrong/right, that is just fantasy land and you are setting yourself up for disappointment (or worse). While this girl shouldn't expect everyone man to be a jerk, she SHOULD understand that most men would take her actions as flirtatious, and EXPECT that SOME men out there MAY act inappropriately, ESPECIALLY, and here's the key, men she doesn't even know!
To take someone's analogy, if you buy a high end sports car, you would be stupid to park it in a shoddy neighborhood that you know nothing about. Sure, it would be nice if everyone respected your property, but if you're stupid about said property, don't be surprised when something happens. Crime happens, no matter if you like it or not, it's your job to avoid those situations.
nowadays hits you when you're young
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Oh, sorry. I meant, the imbalance of power after she says "No."
And I agree, perceiving an imbalance of power doesn't warrant crying "harassment!", because almost anything is offensive nowadays. (Like the thing in Australia about Santa Claus not being allowed to say "Ho, ho, ho!" anymore. wtf?)
But it's very hard to describe how it feels when that line has been crossed and someone has exerted that kind of power over you. I have several friends who have been raped, and it... I know this sounds like an exaggeration, but it's been almost crippling to them.
It's something that makes a victim of these types of things question everything. "Was it something I said?" or "Maybe I shouldn't have worn that," or "Maybe I came onto him," or "How will I ever be intimate with another man again?" Which is terrible because it's never ever the victim's fault. Like everyone else said, "No" means "No".
kevinbeetle: "Yes. When her career washes up and her and Gavin move to Galveston, you will meet her at Hot Topic shopping for a Japanese cheerleader outfit.
Next!"
Dont hate people, please. That is depressing to me.
This day and age, no one is invited in my home unless I know them. (very well)
I am not going to go into detail on a public message board, but it is just not wise to let anyone into your home. Or give out your address.. Or give out your sexual kinks unless you are a lonely desperate fool.
It stinks yes, but it is intelligent.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
I was wondering the same thing.
exactly. to me, it is just common safety sense. you don't go to a strange guy's house either. have I done it in the past? yes, but I was being stupid. This girl acted very well in the situation. She made it clear that she was not comfortable and kicked him out. I have done this too! That's all anyone can do.
You know what would have stopped him dead in his tracks?
"Well... I would bang you... but, my genital herpes is flaring up right now."
OR
"Is that a half a roll of Tum in your pants... or are you happy to see me?"
OR
"I would... but I don't know if my Haitian interveneous drug using male prostitute boyfriend will drop by."
Hail, Hail!!!
Come on Trixie you know your sexual kinks have always been safe with me
No the problem I have is with the whole sex being owed thing, or asking for it.
Inviting skeevy peoples over is dumb, but that doesn't give that person the right to sex and act likd a jackass.
boop.
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=265129&highlight=neighbor
Tell me not to do it. The neighbor that is.
I don't think I said she owed him sex (i'm not reading 13 pages of this crap to find out what I said exactly)......he expected it.
Now that's fucking hilarious!!!! Thanks for the laugh.....and now for an Everclear quote:
"You put yourself in stupid places, yes I think you know its true. Situations where its easy to look down on you. I think you like to be the victim, I think you like to be in pain. I think you make yourself the victim almost every single day."