Immigration

jeffbr

Jeanie wrote:

And besides there's no such thing as a free lunch.

This is the one thing I will agree with you on. That free lunch isn't free. It was stolen from somebody else.

farfromglorified

CorporateWhore wrote:

Essentially you're arguing in favor of anarchy.

I'm arguing for self-sovereignty, the thing from which healthy governments extend.

No one would govern the world but everyone could move around freely?

Localities are and certainly should be free to govern themselves. No one should govern the world since governing the world would require a level of sovereignty impossible to achieve in such a diverse world.

Yeah...that would work great.

Yeah...it would.

CorporateWhore

What I gather from the posts I've received is that I'm a xenophobic bigot for wanting to keep this country's borders secure.

Third world immigrants want to come into this country in the tens of millions. They want jobs. They want education for their kids. They want healthcare. They welfare. They need textbooks for their kids, by the way. They also need food stamps, did I mention that? They might need contraception. Also, they might want unemployment benefits.

Did I mention all of these people will also be coming in the tens of millions?

We have a choice:

A. We can let them in and bankrupt our social program spending.
B. We can let them in and not let them partake of our social programs.
C. We can not let them in.

A is stupid because then we'll have a bankrupt social security program even sooner than it will already be bankrupt.

B is wrong because when they're dying in the street, someone needs to pay for their healthcare as a safety net.

C is the best option. We can't fucking afford all of these people.

Nevermind the fact that we're trying to maintain a culture that has brought about some of the greatest scientists, politicians, and businesspeople the world has ever seen. Let's focus on assimilating the current massive number of immigrants. Educate them and integrate them. Then we can think about drastically changing the demographic makeup of the United States.

farfromglorified

CorporateWhore wrote:

What I gather from the posts I've received is that I'm a xenophobic bigot for wanting to keep this country's borders secure.

Wanting to keep the country's borders secure does not make you xenophobic. Treating innocent foreigners as de facto threats to that security does.

Third world immigrants want to come into this country in the tens of millions. They want jobs. They want education for their kids. They want healthcare. They welfare. They need textbooks for their kids, by the way. They also need food stamps, did I mention that? They might need contraception. Also, they might want unemployment benefits.

Just because someone wants something doesn't give them a right to that something.

I really want to sleep with Alessandra Ambrosio -- which country can I immigrate to that gives me the right to do that?

B is wrong because when they're dying in the street, someone needs to pay for their healthcare as a safety net.

Why?

C is the best option. We can't fucking afford all of these people.

Ok -- I can't afford you either. Get out.

Nevermind the fact that we're trying to maintain a culture that has brought about some of the greatest scientists, politicians, and businesspeople the world has ever seen. Let's focus on assimilating the current massive number of immigrants. Educate them and integrate them. Then we can think about drastically changing the demographic makeup of the United States.

There's your xenophobic streak. These people can't prevent you from "maintaining a culture" until they start hunting you down in the street. Not too many immigrants are doing that.

CorporateWhore

farfromglorified wrote:

There's your xenophobic streak. These people can't prevent you from "maintaining a culture" until they start hunting you down in the street. Not too many immigrants are doing that.

False. By not becoming americans, they are degrading our culture. They are not learning english and as a result, becoming second class citizens. They can't get high paying jobs if they don't speak english, don't get an education, and don't understand our way of life.

50 years from now, a minority of whites will have 99% of the high paying jobs while hispanics will be shining the shoes, cleaning the pools at the country clubs, and washing the cars. This is why we need to assimilate these people. This is also why we can't afford to let any more in right now.

mammasan

CorporateWhore wrote:

What I gather from the posts I've received is that I'm a xenophobic bigot for wanting to keep this country's borders secure.

Third world immigrants want to come into this country in the tens of millions. They want jobs. They want education for their kids. They want healthcare. They welfare. They need textbooks for their kids, by the way. They also need food stamps, did I mention that? They might need contraception. Also, they might want unemployment benefits.

Did I mention all of these people will also be coming in the tens of millions?

We have a choice:

A. We can let them in and bankrupt our social program spending.
B. We can let them in and not let them partake of our social programs.
C. We can not let them in.

A is stupid because then we'll have a bankrupt social security program even sooner than it will already be bankrupt.

B is wrong because when they're dying in the street, someone needs to pay for their healthcare as a safety net.

C is the best option. We can't fucking afford all of these people.

Nevermind the fact that we're trying to maintain a culture that has brought about some of the greatest scientists, politicians, and businesspeople the world has ever seen. Let's focus on assimilating the current massive number of immigrants. Educate them and integrate them. Then we can think about drastically changing the demographic makeup of the United States.

Your problem is that you fail to see that as each generation passes these immigrants are assimulating as you say. It's not going to happen over night. Within a generation the South American immigrants will be college graduates with well paying jobs. Home owners, consumers that will contribute to our economy. You seem to expect this assimulation to occur overnight. The first US born generation of my family had only 4 college graduates, my generation. The next generation, my kids, nieces, and nephews, already has 2 and one will be graduating next year. Rome wasn't built in a day. As far as the social programs are concerned, they are broken and it has nothing to do with immigration. Fix the system and you will see less abuse from immigrants and natives alike. To me, and this is purely opinion, your fear is that the cultural demographics of the US will dramatically change. At the rate we are curredntly experiencing, in a few decades definetly within our life times, hispanics will be the majority in the country. From your posts that seems to scare the shit out of you, unless they are Rupublican voting Cubans. The US is a land of opportunity where the son of a poor immigrant can rise to wealth and prosperity. If people are willing to work hard and contribute to the well being of this country why should they be deprived of this opportunity simply because they will not fully integrate into our culture. By simply being here they will integrate and their children will fully integrate and so forth. Third is crime. Crime is highest among the poor, immigrants tend to be among the poorest citizenry in this country. Should we deal with the criminals and allow the innocent ones to continue along their way or simply generalize and label all immigrants as criminals simply because they are poor. Remember at one time your ancestors probably came to this country with shit and where treated like shit. Instead of repeating the injustices done to them we should learn from our mistakes.

farfromglorified

CorporateWhore wrote:

False. By not becoming americans, they are degrading our culture. They are not learning english and as a result, becoming second class citizens. They can't get high paying jobs if they don't speak english, don't get an education, and don't understand our way of life.

50 years from now, a minority of whites will have 99% of the high paying jobs while hispanics will be shining the shoes, cleaning the pools at the country clubs, and washing the cars. This is why we need to assimilate these people. This is also why we can't afford to let any more in right now.

This makes no sense. They are trying to become Americans by coming here to work and to live. Is an "American" truly now defined by some kind of paperwork, or it by a universal desire for people to use their abilities to create a better life for themselves and their families???

America was founded on principles that lead to citizens falling into different "classes" based on their merits. Is it not someone's fundamental right here to be a second class citizen???

Despite your generalization, many immigrants do learn English. And those that don't -- so what? How does someone not speaking English "degrade your culture"? Do deaf people "degrade your culture" when they speak in sign??? Do mutes "degrade your culture" by not being able to speak English???

Your "need" to assimilate these people also seems unrelated to your justification. Does not someone need to wash cars, shine shoes, and clean pools? How does the completion of those tasks bar you from "assimilating" someone, or create the need to do so? Are white people who do those things not also "assimilated"???????

onelongsong

farfromglorified wrote:

No. The answer is to stop taxing anyone -- stop giving away services to all at the cost of a few. If you've built a system of freebies, why are you complaining when people ask you to give them something for nothing????

The very same logic you detail above can be extended to controlling birth rates among the poor, or forced gentrification in urban areas.

i'm lost. how is this relevant to illegals sneeking over borders?

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

Your problem is that you fail to see that as each generation passes these immigrants are assimulating as you say. It's not going to happen over night. Within a generation the South American immigrants will be college graduates with well paying jobs. Home owners, consumers that will contribute to our economy. You seem to expect this assimulation to occur overnight. The first US born generation of my family had only 4 college graduates, my generation. The next generation, my kids, nieces, and nephews, already has 2 and one will be graduating next year. Rome wasn't built in a day. As far as the social programs are concerned, they are broken and it has nothing to do with immigration. Fix the system and you will see less abuse from immigrants and natives alike. To me, and this is purely opinion, your fear is that the cultural demographics of the US will dramatically change. At the rate we are curredntly experiencing, in a few decades definetly within our life times, hispanics will be the majority in the country. From your posts that seems to scare the shit out of you, unless they are Rupublican voting Cubans. The US is a land of opportunity where the son of a poor immigrant can rise to wealth and prosperity. If people are willing to work hard and contribute to the well being of this country why should they be deprived of this opportunity simply because they will not fully integrate into our culture. By simply being here they will integrate and their children will fully integrate and so forth. Third is crime. Crime is highest among the poor, immigrants tend to be among the poorest citizenry in this country. Should we deal with the criminals and allow the innocent ones to continue along their way or simply generalize and label all immigrants as criminals simply because they are poor. Remember at one time your ancestors probably came to this country with shit and where treated like shit. Instead of repeating the injustices done to them we should learn from our mistakes.

add the words THE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS FUTURE GENERATIONS and we won't lock horns. but then you're off the subject of illegal immigration. illegals can't go to college.

farfromglorified

onelongsong wrote:

i'm lost. how is this relevant to illegals sneeking over borders?

It's relevant because that's the logic you're using to attack "illegals". We've instituted systems of freebies based on faux "human rights". So why would you complain when other humans accept the rights we've already said they're entitled to???

Remove the systems of freebies, and you remove the vast majority of the costs associated with immigration.

onelongsong

farfromglorified wrote:

It's relevant because that's the logic you're using to attack "illegals". We've instituted systems of freebies based on faux "human rights". So why would you complain when other humans accept the rights we've already said they're entitled to???

Remove the systems of freebies, and you remove the vast majority of the costs associated with immigration.

those are rights or freebies available only to americans here. not banditos sneeking accross the border. shouldn't a country make services available to it's people?
following your train of thought; canada has set a precident for free medical services; therefore they should make those services available to the world because they've instituted an system of freebies.
i'm trying to follow you. maybe i'm just over tired. i'd really like to understand your opinion.

farfromglorified

onelongsong wrote:

those are rights or freebies available only to americans here.

Really? Then how come they're justified as "human rights", not just "American rights"????

not banditos sneeking accross the border. shouldn't a country make services available to it's people?

A country should make services available to it's people. The primary service they should provide is the protection of life, liberty, and property. However, the new brand of services we provide show no interest to those things.

following your train of thought; canada has set a precident for free medical services; therefore they should make those services available to the world because they've instituted an system of freebies.

I never said they "should". However, I fail to see how they can justify not doing so. If free healthcare is a "human right", how can it be denied to any human?

i'm trying to follow you. maybe i'm just over tired. i'd really like to understand your opinion.

My opinion is very simple:

A desire to work and to live and to find a better life in doing so is the highest of moral aims. Absolutely no one should be barred from doing that.

You're blaming immigrants for the costs associated with the programs you created as so-called "human rights". Being human themselves, it makes little sense to do that. Rather, perhaps you should examine the programs themselves, and understand what you've actually created. You've instituted a system wherein a man is pitted against his neighbor based on institutional dependency. One pays, the other receives.

To deny the basic right of another to find a better life based on their own merits is to invite another to do the same to you. Eliminate your stupid programs and your faux rights. Demand of the immigrant the same thing you'd demand of anyone: earn that which you desire, rather than asking a government to steal it for you regardless of your merit.

onelongsong

farfromglorified wrote:

Really? Then how come they're justified as "human rights", not just "American rights"????

A country should make services available to it's people. The primary service they should provide is the protection of life, liberty, and property. However, the new brand of services we provide show no interest to those things.

I never said they "should". However, I fail to see how they can justify not doing so. If free healthcare is a "human right", how can it be denied to any human?

My opinion is very simple:

A desire to work and to live and to find a better life in doing so is the highest of moral aims. Absolutely no one should be barred from doing that.

You're blaming immigrants for the costs associated with the programs you created as so-called "human rights". Being human themselves, it makes little sense to do that. Rather, perhaps you should examine the programs themselves, and understand what you've actually created. You've instituted a system wherein a man is pitted against his neighbor based on institutional dependency. One pays, the other receives.

To deny the basic right of another to find a better life based on their own merits is to invite another to do the same to you. Eliminate your stupid programs and your faux rights. Demand of the immigrant the same thing you'd demand of anyone: earn that which you desire, rather than asking a government to steal it for you regardless of your merit.

i've searched everywhere and i can't find anything that says welfare is a human right. even driving is not a right; it's a privelige. please post a link showing where these services are human rights. i've done the research myself the last 30 to 45 minutes and i just can't find it.

farfromglorified

onelongsong wrote:

i've searched everywhere and i can't find anything that says welfare is a human right. even driving is not a right; it's a privelige. please post a link showing where these services are human rights. i've done the research myself the last 30 to 45 minutes and i just can't find it.

You're misunderstanding me. These things aren't "human rights". However, they are justified by their proponents as being so. Things like healthcare, living wages, education, etc are said to be "human rights". Simply ask around on this board. You'll find scores of people who believe those things are "human rights".

If you want to classify those things as privileges, then that's fine. However, the argument is no different. You've still instituted a system wherein someone else gets to determine the parameters of such privilege. If a poor American has the "privilege" of participating in the welfare system, what's to prevent the definition simply changing to a poor anyone participating in that "privilege"?

Regardless of the terminology, you have ceded control of such privileges or rights to the state. The costs associated with those things, extracted from you via force, is not within your control outside of the democratic process you've submitted yourself to. If the majority wish to extend that privilege to foreigners, you've gotten exactly what you've asked for based on the system you appear to be supporting.

In short, the "costs" of immigration are truly the costs of the faulty system of wealth redistribution. Blaming the people who simply extract the benefits the system is largely designed to pay is ridiculous.

mammasan

onelongsong wrote:

add the words THE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS FUTURE GENERATIONS and we won't lock horns. but then you're off the subject of illegal immigration. illegals can't go to college.

Their children can. I'm speaking of immigrants as a whole. Corporatewhore did not differentiate between illegal and legal with the thread starting post. He/she condemned both classes as being hurtfull to the US. Do illegal immigrants put a strain on social services? Yes they do but they are a small part of the problem. The problem is the system itself. Fix our social services and you will cut down on the cases of abuse by illegals and legal alike.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

Their children can. I'm speaking of immigrants as a whole. Corporatewhore did not differentiate between illegal and legal with the thread starting post. He/she condemned both classes as being hurtfull to the US. Do illegal immigrants put a strain on social services? Yes they do but they are a small part of the problem. The problem is the system itself. Fix our social services and you will cut down on the cases of abuse by illegals and legal alike.

we're all immigrants. even the native american indian. or do you think they magically appeared?
i hope to immigrate out of the us before the next civil war; and i expect that soon. we have more people than jobs. more people coming in; and more people being replaced by machines. look at the violence now.
it's time to blow this pop stand.

onelongsong

farfromglorified wrote:

You're misunderstanding me. These things aren't "human rights". However, they are justified by their proponents as being so. Things like healthcare, living wages, education, etc are said to be "human rights". Simply ask around on this board. You'll find scores of people who believe those things are "human rights".

If you want to classify those things as privileges, then that's fine. However, the argument is no different. You've still instituted a system wherein someone else gets to determine the parameters of such privilege. If a poor American has the "privilege" of participating in the welfare system, what's to prevent the definition simply changing to a poor anyone participating in that "privilege"?

Regardless of the terminology, you have ceded control of such privileges or rights to the state. The costs associated with those things, extracted from you via force, is not within your control outside of the democratic process you've submitted yourself to. If the majority wish to extend that privilege to foreigners, you've gotten exactly what you've asked for based on the system you appear to be supporting.

In short, the "costs" of immigration are truly the costs of the faulty system of wealth redistribution. Blaming the people who simply extract the benefits the system is largely designed to pay is ridiculous.

all i hear you saying is:
"kill them all and let God sort them out".
i'm sorry.

farfromglorified

onelongsong wrote:

all i hear you saying is:
"kill them all and let God sort them out".

Ok...what I'm saying has nothing to do with killing anyone, or God. What I'm saying is let people sort themselves out first, and let people help others how they choose. It's not complicated.

If the lack of forced institutional social services led to "kill them all", you wouldn't be here since man far predates the existence of forced institutional social services.

It seems you're saying "I can't afford immigrants, so keep them from coming here". All I'm offering is that those two things can be compromised by allowing those people to come here without their existence carrying an obligation for you.

CorporateWhore

mammasan wrote:

Their children can. I'm speaking of immigrants as a whole. Corporatewhore did not differentiate between illegal and legal with the thread starting post. He/she condemned both classes as being hurtfull to the US. Do illegal immigrants put a strain on social services? Yes they do but they are a small part of the problem. The problem is the system itself. Fix our social services and you will cut down on the cases of abuse by illegals and legal alike.

Illegal immigrants will be a growing problem unless we secure the border, though. There's something like 2 million a year coming in. In 1980, hispanics accounted for 6% of the population. In 1990, hispanics accounted for 9% of the population while now they account for 14.4%. Nothing against hispanics personally, but that's a huge demographic change in such a short time. Almost all of it is from immigration. Many of these hispanics are congregated in the Southwest where they establish hispanic communities. They speak spanish, celebrate Mexican holidays like Cinco de Mayo, and erect statues of Aztec gods instead of learning about American culture.

The problem arises when you realize that the vast majority of America's population growth is coming from poor hispanic countries, namely Mexico. Half of all illegal aliens are Mexican. Their leaders are pushing them into our country, but they want them to stay "Mexican." They want them to keep their Mexican heritage and not assimilate into our culture. And also, guess who they're pushing out? Poor, uneducated people. Those people will come into our country and get jobs that "Americans don't want to take," but if the economy takes a downturn (which is HIGHLY possible), those jobs dry up and those people are starving. What do millions of illegal aliens do when they're starving and they can't find work? They want the government to help them. What does that kind of pressure do to even the most EFFICIENT social welfare system? It bankrupts it.

You seem to think that our social welfare system can be changed to compensate for this massive infusion of illegal immigrants into the country. It cannot. There are simply too many new poor people coming in. The ONLY way to combat their utter failure in our nation is to halt immigration and assimilate these current immigrants, whether they are legal or illegal.

I know you are optimistic that these new immigrants will be educated and go to college, but that is not what is happening right now. Our immigrant population is highly uneducated. Hispanics (even 3rd and 4th generation) are not getting into college in significant numbers, and a lot of it has to do with the ghetto culture that permeates their communities. They're moving more into the african-american culture rather than the european-american culture.

This is a multi-faceted issue and to call someone a bigot for pointing out the racial component is ignorant and gets us nowhere. We need to solve problems not create more.

onelongsong

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok...what I'm saying has nothing to do with killing anyone, or God. What I'm saying is let people sort themselves out first, and let people help others how they choose. It's not complicated.

If the lack of forced institutional social services led to "kill them all", you wouldn't be here since man far predates the existence of forced institutional social services.

It seems you're saying "I can't afford immigrants, so keep them from coming here". All I'm offering is that those two things can be compromised by allowing those people to come here without their existence carrying an obligation for you.

now that makes sense to me. survival of the fittest. but not one person has told me of a country where you can walk in and say "here i am. i'm here to stay".