Immigration

Merkin Baller

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

mace1229

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

The closest figure I can come up with to answer your question ishttps://thehill.com/opinion/education/4839243-education-immigrant-children-cost-benefit/ states TN spent 571 million on undocumented students. 

Google search says : The exact number of unauthorized immigrant students in Tennessee is unknown, but estimates range from 12,000 to 150,000. This is because schools are not allowed to ask about immigration status. 

Explanation

• According to the Migration Policy Institute, there are approximately 12,000 unauthorized residents between the ages of 3 and 17 in Tennessee.

If you go with 12,000 that's 47k per student. But that number can be way off. Because, as I mentioned, they're not allowed to ask.

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

What's a good solution? 

It does seem to me that the questions should be asked but ultimately it's either about more funding to take care of the kids or absolute refusal to assist them. And yes..."assist" is an odd word if they are here illegally.

mickeyrat

and your claim is we spend more than other countries. back up the claim.

whatever the numbers are either way, which country sees more of the gains from the expense? would argue lower costs elsewhere for higher quality education.

so lets also compare outcomes from costs involved.

more money does not equal better in but a few cases would be my guess.

Halifax2TheMax

Real cost effective, I’m sure. Why not just put them on rickety boats and point them toward Cuba, Si?

President Donald Trump said he’s signing an executive order to instruct the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security to prepare a 30,000 person migrant facility at Guantánamo Bay.

“Most people don’t even know about it — we have 30,000 beds in Guantánamo to detain the worst criminal illegal aliens threatening the American people,” Trump said. “Some of them are so bad, we don’t even trust the countries to hold them because we don’t want them coming back. So we’re going to send them out to Guantánamo. This will double our capacity immediately.”

Go Beavers

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. Can you give me one example of another country that spends more on illegal immigrants than citizens/legal residents? I can't.

Illegal immigrants use those resources at a much higher rate. So the amount of money spent per student is higher if you compare legal to non-legal status.

I am not saying only illegals use those services. A lot of people di. Or that it doesn't benefit society as a whole or that it isn;t a good return on investment. All those things are true.
But can you give me an example of another country that provides as many services to illegal immigrants as we do? I've asked that 3 times and can't get an answer. Because we all know the answer, so the only response is to take my comments out of context and focus on things I never said. 
I keep hearing we're a racist country for how we treat people who are here illegally, but we literally do more than any other country does. 

If you want to make strawman arguments, that’s fine, but don’t get frustrated if no one responds to them . 

josevolution

I heard he’s going to build immigrant resorts down in Guantanamo to send them on extended vacation Uhmm 

Merkin Baller

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

The closest figure I can come up with to answer your question ishttps://thehill.com/opinion/education/4839243-education-immigrant-children-cost-benefit/ states TN spent 571 million on undocumented students. 

Google search says : The exact number of unauthorized immigrant students in Tennessee is unknown, but estimates range from 12,000 to 150,000. This is because schools are not allowed to ask about immigration status. 

Explanation

• According to the Migration Policy Institute, there are approximately 12,000 unauthorized residents between the ages of 3 and 17 in Tennessee.

If you go with 12,000 that's 47k per student. But that number can be way off. Because, as I mentioned, they're not allowed to ask.

Not being argumentative at all, I was curious if there was hard data on the subject. By your own admission, these services already exist for legal residents, so I was wondering how it all broke down or what the estimates were. I guess there aren’t any. 

I’m all for reigning in wasteful government spending, but I’m also quite sure there are much less humanitarian ways in which our government spends our tax dollars, whether we agree with them or not. 

mace1229

mickeyrat said:

and your claim is we spend more than other countries. back up the claim.

whatever the numbers are either way, which country sees more of the gains from the expense? would argue lower costs elsewhere for higher quality education.

so lets also compare outcomes from costs involved.

more money does not equal better in but a few cases would be my guess.

Again, not what I said. 
I said what other countries offer the same services that we do? I said an illegal immigrant gets all of the same education benefits a citizen does. I also said they often require additional support at a higher frequency and those here legally. It is illegal to even ask a student their legal status.
Does any other country do that, and offer all of the same educational services available to citizens? I am not aware of any other country. And since it's hard to prove a negative, I asked (I believe 5 times now) if anyone is aware of the same treatment in other countries? I was always under the impression that the risk of being detained and deported is much higher in other countries. 

I then pointed out the cost, but never compared it to other countries. 

mace1229

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

The closest figure I can come up with to answer your question ishttps://thehill.com/opinion/education/4839243-education-immigrant-children-cost-benefit/ states TN spent 571 million on undocumented students. 

Google search says : The exact number of unauthorized immigrant students in Tennessee is unknown, but estimates range from 12,000 to 150,000. This is because schools are not allowed to ask about immigration status. 

Explanation

• According to the Migration Policy Institute, there are approximately 12,000 unauthorized residents between the ages of 3 and 17 in Tennessee.

If you go with 12,000 that's 47k per student. But that number can be way off. Because, as I mentioned, they're not allowed to ask.

Not being argumentative at all, I was curious if there was hard data on the subject. By your own admission, these services already exist for legal residents, so I was wondering how it all broke down or what the estimates were. I guess there aren’t any. 

I’m all for reigning in wasteful government spending, but I’m also quite sure there are much less humanitarian ways in which our government spends our tax dollars, whether we agree with them or not. 

I meant to say "general you, not literally you." I didn't take it as argumentative. 

mace1229

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

What's a good solution? 

It does seem to me that the questions should be asked but ultimately it's either about more funding to take care of the kids or absolute refusal to assist them. And yes..."assist" is an odd word if they are here illegally.

I'm not for uprooting people who have established a life here. But that's also the problem. People know once they get here and enroll their kids in school and find a job, they're pretty much never going to have to leave. 
I think we need to enforce immigration laws moving forward. What that looks like or how we do it, I don't know. 

Halifax2TheMax

I think someone is afraid of being replaced. We really have moved on from drones.

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Merkin Baller said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

mace1229 said:

Tim Simmons said:

Because we don't learn our lesson and keep absolutely shitting on groups of people as if we have been here forever and always, all the while barely acknowledging that we do it rather than saying, he man, everyone's cool and we learned our lessons from mistakes of the past so lets share this land and be the land of opportunity for all. 

What other counties spend what we spend on illegal immigrants as it is? The cost of education on the average legal vs non-legal students is different. We spends thousands of dollars on translators in the classroom, co-teachers, teachers often have to spend their own time and money to get certified for language learners. I don't know any country that spends when we spend on illegal resident. Sure, a lot of those apply to legal residents to, but its at a much lower rate.
I doubt there's another country in the world I can take my kids to illegally and get half the services they get here. But it's not enough and we're perceived as bad and racists for doing more than any other country.
I haven't seen anyone deny our nation's history. I haven't seen anyone who wants to deport all immigrants. At the most, its only illegal immigrants, and usually the focus is on criminals and preventing more from coming. Which is pretty standard around the world.

differentiate the costs between legal migrants and undocumented. services overlap, do they not? where those funds come from to begin with? property taxes?  regardless of status, rent or mortgage ownership would account for at least a good portion of this funding. so in effect unless migrants of whatever status live in a tent or other nonfixed abode they are in fact contributing to these services.

I didn't say they don't contribute. I said they use them at a higher rate when compared to others.
Schools offer free food below a certain income. Almost every school is going to have language services. Many schools and districts with a higher ELL population will have 2 teachers in classrooms, one a language specialist and one the content teacher. No services are denied a student based on their legal status. And I am not saying they should be. But, I am saying lets recognize that a higher percentage of students who are of illegal immigration status fall into the categories that require these extra services and drive up the cost of education. 

then lay out the actual numbers of these students vs the citizen student. by average or percentage. to hear you tell it these schools are overrun with migrant children far surpassing the citizen student population.  Frankly, I dont see it based on the kids waiting at the neighborhood bus stop locations.  ot those in walking distance to this immersion school near me.

Where did I say anything was being overrun?
I said specialized language services, as well as other services provided at schools, can get expensive, and illegal immigrant children use many of those services (such as language support) at a higher rate. Never mentioned anything being overrun. 
It costs a lot more money to educate a child who doesn't speak English.

and those services are also in place for documented migrant children. and the general idea being long term presence in this country, the kids will pick up english. fairly quickly as children seem better learning orher languages than adults do.

so return on investment. worth it. wifes kids are grown. she still pays for education out of property taxes. I do as well out of payroll given where I live. I have no children.  money well spent as long as it goes to actual  children trying to learn and not bureaucratic bullshit admin costs.

Again, none of that is anything I disputed. You seem to be missing the point. I said we spend a lot more on students of illegal immigration status than most who are here legally. 

I'm interested to see the data on this, do you have any links to share? 

I've looked before and haven't found an exact number. But we can apply some common sense to the issue and get a good understanding. 
I've been in education 16 years. I've taught in inner city schools and minority-majority schools in different states.
It should be of no surprise that "newcomers," as they are often called have huge gaps in their education and speak limited English. Schools use a lot of resources to catch this kids up. We have kids who haven't been to school since the 5th grade in their home country show up in high school. ELL (English Language Learners) classes are traditionally very small, sometimes 5 or 6 students compared to the 35 in my chemistry class. Some schools will have a second bilingual teacher in a room. 
One of the reasons there may not be a lot of data is because it is illegal to ask a student their legal status. But, sometimes you know without asking. We have a pretty good idea when someone shows up and has zero documents about any schooling for the last 3 years.
Now there are plenty of legal residents who do use those same services. But you're (general you, you literally you) just being argumentative if you can't admit illegal immigrants need some of those services at a higher rate than legal residents. 
Before I left Colorado it became required that all teachers get ELL certified on their own time and dime. So not just a cost to the schools, but a personal cost to teachers. Some districts found ways to provide the training so they teachers didn't have to pay for it, but not all.
* I just looked it up, it wasn't "all teachers"

ELL professional learning

As of September 1, 2025, educators with certain endorsements will need to complete 45 hours of ELL professional learning to renew their license. This includes educators with elementary, English, math, science, or social studies endorsement

So all the core subjects that are hard to hire to begin with is required. PE and art teachers don't have to worry about it. 

And again, I'm not saying and never had said we shouldn't support these students. I'm just pointing out the cost involved.

What's a good solution? 

It does seem to me that the questions should be asked but ultimately it's either about more funding to take care of the kids or absolute refusal to assist them. And yes..."assist" is an odd word if they are here illegally.

I'm not for uprooting people who have established a life here. But that's also the problem. People know once they get here and enroll their kids in school and find a job, they're pretty much never going to have to leave. 
I think we need to enforce immigration laws moving forward. What that looks like or how we do it, I don't know. 

Yeah we either have to enforce or not enforce. 

I'm all for taxing the rich and throwing tons of money at education. I think we are fucked if we don't.

mickeyrat

https://www.threads.net/@georgehtakei/post/DFbVsxXBsJ-?xmt=AQGzW8Z7_APHRi0cE74Xs0eRgmIFVhMXIg4ANu1Hvin6HA

mickeyrat

https://www.threads.net/@progressivepower/post/DFZRxoeplum?xmt=AQGzCIkm_Oy8blggAg-Fnz_P2FpcLHEMl-ld69HsMKjFpg

mickeyrat

https://www.threads.net/@katiephang/post/DFactRsOB-H?xmt=AQGzIa77axSpNg0hpLZpbqZ2cY90a-coT9uZ3gl-kyyfwQ

shecky

Residents of America's largest sanctuary city are relieved to see sweeping change as violent criminals, including alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco, were apprehended in ICE raids led by the Trump administration.

Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been on-the-ground as agents nabbed illegal immigrants in the Big Apple, told "Fox & Friends" that residents have voiced their gratitude. 

"The people of this country want these dirtbags out. They want their communities to be safe," she said. 

"It was so amazing to me to see people walk by us on the street early in the morning and just say, ‘Thank you. Thank you for being here.’ This is part of our plan to make sure that we're protecting America, keeping it safe again, just like President Trump promised… [The ‘thank you' messages] mean the world to those officers who are out there risking their lives to bring safety back

Homeland Security Kristi Noem joins an ICE raid in New York City on Tuesday. Noem said communities will be safer because of targeted raids that go after criminal illegal immigrants.  (Department of Homeland Security)

Some New York City residents in predominantly Black and Hispanic communities have echoed the enthusiasm Noem described.

One resident had planned to call ICE on a group of illegal migrants living in the area, but agents arrived before he could.

"I'm glad they're gone," he said. "There were 15 of them in a one-bedroom. [They were] destroying the building, doing drugs in front. They're illegally squatting, so they're criminals… if you go inside, it's destroyed."

After ICE nabbed alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco in the Bronx, a local shared their relief with The New York Post, saying, "Thank God they got him."

The Post quoted Evelyn Brown, an 80-year-old Bronx resident who emigrated to the U.S. from Jamaica, as saying, "Get them the hell off the street! Get them the hell out of the street, so people don’t have to walk in fear."

The Trump administration's actions also received praise from Heritage Foundation senior communications director Matthew Tragesser, who, on Wednesday, told "Fox & Friends First" the efforts of the new administration have helped roll back some damage from the Biden era.

"We have to applaud the Trump administration for taking initiative and acting quickly to remove these dangerous criminal aliens who have roamed freely for at least four years under the Biden-Harris administration," he said.

"Secretary Noem, Border czar Tom Homan, President Trump, they have all focused on eight immigration-related executive orders to restrict immigration, to secure our borders better, and they're acting as quickly as they can. But let's not forget there were hundreds of thousands of criminals, potentially also with unvetted backgrounds entering our country, so that takes some time to remove them from the country."

New York City council member Vickie Paladino told Fox News that the "party is over" in the Big Apple for migrant criminals.

"They're going after the worst of the worst. We've lived through three years of this mess with these illegals coming in here and ruling the day. … There's a new sheriff in town," she told "America Reports."

GlowGirl

shecky said:

Residents of America's largest sanctuary city are relieved to see sweeping change as violent criminals, including alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco, were apprehended in ICE raids led by the Trump administration.

Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been on-the-ground as agents nabbed illegal immigrants in the Big Apple, told "Fox & Friends" that residents have voiced their gratitude. 

"The people of this country want these dirtbags out. They want their communities to be safe," she said. 

"It was so amazing to me to see people walk by us on the street early in the morning and just say, ‘Thank you. Thank you for being here.’ This is part of our plan to make sure that we're protecting America, keeping it safe again, just like President Trump promised… [The ‘thank you' messages] mean the world to those officers who are out there risking their lives to bring safety back

Homeland Security Kristi Noem joins an ICE raid in New York City on Tuesday. Noem said communities will be safer because of targeted raids that go after criminal illegal immigrants.  (Department of Homeland Security)

Some New York City residents in predominantly Black and Hispanic communities have echoed the enthusiasm Noem described.

One resident had planned to call ICE on a group of illegal migrants living in the area, but agents arrived before he could.

"I'm glad they're gone," he said. "There were 15 of them in a one-bedroom. [They were] destroying the building, doing drugs in front. They're illegally squatting, so they're criminals… if you go inside, it's destroyed."

After ICE nabbed alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco in the Bronx, a local shared their relief with The New York Post, saying, "Thank God they got him."

The Post quoted Evelyn Brown, an 80-year-old Bronx resident who emigrated to the U.S. from Jamaica, as saying, "Get them the hell off the street! Get them the hell out of the street, so people don’t have to walk in fear."

The Trump administration's actions also received praise from Heritage Foundation senior communications director Matthew Tragesser, who, on Wednesday, told "Fox & Friends First" the efforts of the new administration have helped roll back some damage from the Biden era.

"We have to applaud the Trump administration for taking initiative and acting quickly to remove these dangerous criminal aliens who have roamed freely for at least four years under the Biden-Harris administration," he said.

"Secretary Noem, Border czar Tom Homan, President Trump, they have all focused on eight immigration-related executive orders to restrict immigration, to secure our borders better, and they're acting as quickly as they can. But let's not forget there were hundreds of thousands of criminals, potentially also with unvetted backgrounds entering our country, so that takes some time to remove them from the country."

New York City council member Vickie Paladino told Fox News that the "party is over" in the Big Apple for migrant criminals.

"They're going after the worst of the worst. We've lived through three years of this mess with these illegals coming in here and ruling the day. … There's a new sheriff in town," she told "America Reports."

I live in NYC and I don’t know a single person who agrees with these raids. Most that I know are disgusted by them. 

mickeyrat

GlowGirl said:

shecky said:

Residents of America's largest sanctuary city are relieved to see sweeping change as violent criminals, including alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco, were apprehended in ICE raids led by the Trump administration.

Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been on-the-ground as agents nabbed illegal immigrants in the Big Apple, told "Fox & Friends" that residents have voiced their gratitude. 

"The people of this country want these dirtbags out. They want their communities to be safe," she said. 

"It was so amazing to me to see people walk by us on the street early in the morning and just say, ‘Thank you. Thank you for being here.’ This is part of our plan to make sure that we're protecting America, keeping it safe again, just like President Trump promised… [The ‘thank you' messages] mean the world to those officers who are out there risking their lives to bring safety back

Homeland Security Kristi Noem joins an ICE raid in New York City on Tuesday. Noem said communities will be safer because of targeted raids that go after criminal illegal immigrants.  (Department of Homeland Security)

Some New York City residents in predominantly Black and Hispanic communities have echoed the enthusiasm Noem described.

One resident had planned to call ICE on a group of illegal migrants living in the area, but agents arrived before he could.

"I'm glad they're gone," he said. "There were 15 of them in a one-bedroom. [They were] destroying the building, doing drugs in front. They're illegally squatting, so they're criminals… if you go inside, it's destroyed."

After ICE nabbed alleged Tren de Aragua ringleader Anderson Zambrano-Pacheco in the Bronx, a local shared their relief with The New York Post, saying, "Thank God they got him."

The Post quoted Evelyn Brown, an 80-year-old Bronx resident who emigrated to the U.S. from Jamaica, as saying, "Get them the hell off the street! Get them the hell out of the street, so people don’t have to walk in fear."

The Trump administration's actions also received praise from Heritage Foundation senior communications director Matthew Tragesser, who, on Wednesday, told "Fox & Friends First" the efforts of the new administration have helped roll back some damage from the Biden era.

"We have to applaud the Trump administration for taking initiative and acting quickly to remove these dangerous criminal aliens who have roamed freely for at least four years under the Biden-Harris administration," he said.

"Secretary Noem, Border czar Tom Homan, President Trump, they have all focused on eight immigration-related executive orders to restrict immigration, to secure our borders better, and they're acting as quickly as they can. But let's not forget there were hundreds of thousands of criminals, potentially also with unvetted backgrounds entering our country, so that takes some time to remove them from the country."

New York City council member Vickie Paladino told Fox News that the "party is over" in the Big Apple for migrant criminals.

"They're going after the worst of the worst. We've lived through three years of this mess with these illegals coming in here and ruling the day. … There's a new sheriff in town," she told "America Reports."

I live in NYC and I don’t know a single person who agrees with these raids. Most that I know are disgusted by them. 

but but but, fox news said so.

mickeyrat

https://www.threads.net/@tomwellborn3/post/DFbpuX_sShj?xmt=AQGzFVXUebYZnHFeiMT9yMwopWaw-ziAoAqBP-jcBb9OpA