Trouble With Atheism
Ahnimus
Posts: 10,560
I just watched this Channel 4 documentary on Atheism. I have a few points things I'd like to say about it. I mean, I always think it's good to hear criticism and there was plenty of that.
Atheism
Atheism is often categorized as a type of doctrine or religion. Simply stated Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. Atheists though typically have other common disbeliefs or beliefs. Science is often a focus of atheists. However atheists rarely group together and think up strategies to overthrow religion. The Beyond Belief 2006 conference I posted may be an exception. Many atheists dislike religion, such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Hariss. However, these people do not represent all atheists. Philosophically many atheists do not deny the possibility of the existence of a God, however they view it as unattainable knowledge which belief in corrupts the mind.
Science and The Skeptic View
The attraction of science to atheists is best described by it's method. The method of science is to presuppose something exists and test for it, if the results are negative it probably doesn't exist. Scientists will think of new ways of testing and continuously try to prove it's existence. Once this method succeeds it is evidence, more theories are created about the evidence and then tested. This repeats infinitely, constantly gaining a better understanding. Occasionally there are some false paths and certain theories are forced back to the last crossroad, so-to-speak. The skeptic view is open to new findings, to new knowledge, but is always skeptical of the foundation of the knowledge. Skeptics like myself mold our perception around what is scientifically known, not what is scientifically hypothesized.
Complexity
Complexity is evident in nature. The universe is infinitely complex. Atheists do not presuppose creation by God. For many atheists the speculation of designer or chance isn't factored into their atheism. It's a complete unknown and therefor irrelevant. Another view of complexity is necessity. The universe is complex simply because it has to be. We can only ask the question "Why is it so complex?" because it is so complex. The complexity of the universe is primarily based in scientific knowledge. As mentioned before, scientific knowledge is constantly evolving and if the answer can be known, it will eventually be so.
Darwinism/Evolution
Firstly, I don't think it's fair to call it Darwinism. Darwin was a religious man and had no affiliation with Atheism. Secondly, there is no "ism" surrounding Darwin's theory of evolution. None that I am aware of anyway. It's simply a scientific theory that has been refined, but overall maintains it's integrity. I would prefer Atheism be referred to as Atheism and not Darwinism. Darwin is not the reason people disbelieve in God, he's only the reason they believe in Evolution. Atheism predates Darwin by over 1800 years and can be traced back to the Greek philosopher Democritus around 500 B.C.E./B.C..
Morality
I'm actually quite appalled at statements like "Atheism is immoral". Certainly sacred texts contain many stories of moral value. However, many modern children's books are also a good source of morality. The morality of a parent is passed down to their children through child-rearing. Adults and children interplay socially and develop new moral understandings which may or may not be inherited by future generations. Society and culture are constantly changing with or without ancient stories. Sources of morality are all around us, the bible is just one of them.
Conclusion
Much like religious people differ in many of their beliefs, atheists differ in their disbeliefs and beliefs. Also as religious people differ in attitude and approach, so do atheists. Separate behavioral patterns from theism and atheism and all you have is either a belief or disbelief in God. It may be fair to categorize behavior, such as Active Atheists like Richard Dawkins, Sam Hariss, and Steven Weinberg. Or fundamentalist and extremist Muslims or Christians. Where these people see trouble with religion is in it's ability to be exploited for wrongful means. Many religious people say Hitler was an atheist. This may or may not be true, however Hitler did support his own view of Christianity which depicted Jesus as a crusader against the Jews.
I hope this has provided some contrast to the documentary posted above and what seems to be the common theist perception of atheism. Feel free to comment as you like.
Atheism
Atheism is often categorized as a type of doctrine or religion. Simply stated Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. Atheists though typically have other common disbeliefs or beliefs. Science is often a focus of atheists. However atheists rarely group together and think up strategies to overthrow religion. The Beyond Belief 2006 conference I posted may be an exception. Many atheists dislike religion, such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Hariss. However, these people do not represent all atheists. Philosophically many atheists do not deny the possibility of the existence of a God, however they view it as unattainable knowledge which belief in corrupts the mind.
Science and The Skeptic View
The attraction of science to atheists is best described by it's method. The method of science is to presuppose something exists and test for it, if the results are negative it probably doesn't exist. Scientists will think of new ways of testing and continuously try to prove it's existence. Once this method succeeds it is evidence, more theories are created about the evidence and then tested. This repeats infinitely, constantly gaining a better understanding. Occasionally there are some false paths and certain theories are forced back to the last crossroad, so-to-speak. The skeptic view is open to new findings, to new knowledge, but is always skeptical of the foundation of the knowledge. Skeptics like myself mold our perception around what is scientifically known, not what is scientifically hypothesized.
Complexity
Complexity is evident in nature. The universe is infinitely complex. Atheists do not presuppose creation by God. For many atheists the speculation of designer or chance isn't factored into their atheism. It's a complete unknown and therefor irrelevant. Another view of complexity is necessity. The universe is complex simply because it has to be. We can only ask the question "Why is it so complex?" because it is so complex. The complexity of the universe is primarily based in scientific knowledge. As mentioned before, scientific knowledge is constantly evolving and if the answer can be known, it will eventually be so.
Darwinism/Evolution
Firstly, I don't think it's fair to call it Darwinism. Darwin was a religious man and had no affiliation with Atheism. Secondly, there is no "ism" surrounding Darwin's theory of evolution. None that I am aware of anyway. It's simply a scientific theory that has been refined, but overall maintains it's integrity. I would prefer Atheism be referred to as Atheism and not Darwinism. Darwin is not the reason people disbelieve in God, he's only the reason they believe in Evolution. Atheism predates Darwin by over 1800 years and can be traced back to the Greek philosopher Democritus around 500 B.C.E./B.C..
Morality
I'm actually quite appalled at statements like "Atheism is immoral". Certainly sacred texts contain many stories of moral value. However, many modern children's books are also a good source of morality. The morality of a parent is passed down to their children through child-rearing. Adults and children interplay socially and develop new moral understandings which may or may not be inherited by future generations. Society and culture are constantly changing with or without ancient stories. Sources of morality are all around us, the bible is just one of them.
Conclusion
Much like religious people differ in many of their beliefs, atheists differ in their disbeliefs and beliefs. Also as religious people differ in attitude and approach, so do atheists. Separate behavioral patterns from theism and atheism and all you have is either a belief or disbelief in God. It may be fair to categorize behavior, such as Active Atheists like Richard Dawkins, Sam Hariss, and Steven Weinberg. Or fundamentalist and extremist Muslims or Christians. Where these people see trouble with religion is in it's ability to be exploited for wrongful means. Many religious people say Hitler was an atheist. This may or may not be true, however Hitler did support his own view of Christianity which depicted Jesus as a crusader against the Jews.
I hope this has provided some contrast to the documentary posted above and what seems to be the common theist perception of atheism. Feel free to comment as you like.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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Comments
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I'd be an Active Athiest, if I thought it would make a difference. Trouble is, you can't logically attack faith with reason, cos belief and reason are inherently different and humans should not have been called, Homo sapiens Pratchett maintains we should be called Pan narrans, the story telling monkey, but I'll stick with Pan gullibans, the story believing monkey.Music is not a competetion.0
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Ahnimus, Thanks. It's about time some interesting content has surfaced.
I like the "isn't that a tad arrogant" questioning. Oh, there's 4 more parts to trip out on...:DProgress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")0 -
lucylespian wrote:I'd be an Active Athiest, if I thought it would make a difference. Trouble is, you can't logically attack faith with reason, cos belief and reason are inherently different and humans should not have been called, Homo sapiens Pratchett maintains we should be called Pan narrans, the story telling monkey, but I'll stick with Pan gullibans, the story believing monkey.
Speaking of Pan's...have you seen Pan's Labyrinth?
http://blogs.indiewire.com/timbasham/panimage~15.jpg
http://www.canmag.com/images/front/movies20063/pansposter1.jpg
http://www.impawards.com/2006/posters/pans_labyrinth_ver3.jpgProgress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")0 -
RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:Speaking of Pan's...have you seen Pan's Labyrinth?
http://blogs.indiewire.com/timbasham/panimage~15.jpg
http://www.canmag.com/images/front/movies20063/pansposter1.jpg
http://www.impawards.com/2006/posters/pans_labyrinth_ver3.jpg
No, but those images are suitably disgusting and intruiging. I might check it out. I haven't been to the movies in ages. The last few I saw were a bit lacking, and I'm stuck in side all weekk so like to staay out on weekends.Music is not a competetion.0 -
lucylespian wrote:No, but those images are suitably disgusting and intruiging. I might check it out. I haven't been to the movies in ages. The last few I saw were a bit lacking, and I'm stuck in side all weekk so like to staay out on weekends.
Rotten Tomoatoes gives it a 95% which is an unusually high score for them. It's about a little girl...pretty trippy
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/pans_labyrinth/Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")0 -
the trouble with atheism is when you tell people you are an atheist they think you're going through a phase or are just confused. so i guess the trouble is less about atheism and more about people's absence-of-religion tolerence.hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say0 -
Ahnimus wrote:I just watched this Channel 4 documentary on Atheism. I have a few points things I'd like to say about it. I mean, I always think it's good to hear criticism and there was plenty of that.
Atheism
Atheism is often categorized as a type of doctrine or religion. Simply stated Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. Atheists though typically have other common disbeliefs or beliefs. Science is often a focus of atheists. However atheists rarely group together and think up strategies to overthrow religion. The Beyond Belief 2006 conference I posted may be an exception. Many atheists dislike religion, such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Hariss. However, these people do not represent all atheists. Philosophically many atheists do not deny the possibility of the existence of a God, however they view it as unattainable knowledge which belief in corrupts the mind.
Science and The Skeptic View
The attraction of science to atheists is best described by it's method. The method of science is to presuppose something exists and test for it, if the results are negative it probably doesn't exist. Scientists will think of new ways of testing and continuously try to prove it's existence. Once this method succeeds it is evidence, more theories are created about the evidence and then tested. This repeats infinitely, constantly gaining a better understanding. Occasionally there are some false paths and certain theories are forced back to the last crossroad, so-to-speak. The skeptic view is open to new findings, to new knowledge, but is always skeptical of the foundation of the knowledge. Skeptics like myself mold our perception around what is scientifically known, not what is scientifically hypothesized.
Complexity
Complexity is evident in nature. The universe is infinitely complex. Atheists do not presuppose creation by God. For many atheists the speculation of designer or chance isn't factored into their atheism. It's a complete unknown and therefor irrelevant. Another view of complexity is necessity. The universe is complex simply because it has to be. We can only ask the question "Why is it so complex?" because it is so complex. The complexity of the universe is primarily based in scientific knowledge. As mentioned before, scientific knowledge is constantly evolving and if the answer can be known, it will eventually be so.
Darwinism/Evolution
Firstly, I don't think it's fair to call it Darwinism. Darwin was a religious man and had no affiliation with Atheism. Secondly, there is no "ism" surrounding Darwin's theory of evolution. None that I am aware of anyway. It's simply a scientific theory that has been refined, but overall maintains it's integrity. I would prefer Atheism be referred to as Atheism and not Darwinism. Darwin is not the reason people disbelieve in God, he's only the reason they believe in Evolution. Atheism predates Darwin by over 1800 years and can be traced back to the Greek philosopher Democritus around 500 B.C.E./B.C..
Morality
I'm actually quite appalled at statements like "Atheism is immoral". Certainly sacred texts contain many stories of moral value. However, many modern children's books are also a good source of morality. The morality of a parent is passed down to their children through child-rearing. Adults and children interplay socially and develop new moral understandings which may or may not be inherited by future generations. Society and culture are constantly changing with or without ancient stories. Sources of morality are all around us, the bible is just one of them.
Conclusion
Much like religious people differ in many of their beliefs, atheists differ in their disbeliefs and beliefs. Also as religious people differ in attitude and approach, so do atheists. Separate behavioral patterns from theism and atheism and all you have is either a belief or disbelief in God. It may be fair to categorize behavior, such as Active Atheists like Richard Dawkins, Sam Hariss, and Steven Weinberg. Or fundamentalist and extremist Muslims or Christians. Where these people see trouble with religion is in it's ability to be exploited for wrongful means. Many religious people say Hitler was an atheist. This may or may not be true, however Hitler did support his own view of Christianity which depicted Jesus as a crusader against the Jews.
I hope this has provided some contrast to the documentary posted above and what seems to be the common theist perception of atheism. Feel free to comment as you like.
Good post, Grasshoppah.
I have nothing to add.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.0 -
science and religion could be one.0
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macgyver06 wrote:science and religion could be one.
One good be Three. Three could be One-hundred. The possiblilities are endless.
edit: i'm kidding. Polar and grizzly bears could be one.
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Thanks for the post, Ahnimus. This is way too long for me to watch at work, I hope I can get to it tonight at home."Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 19630
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hippiemom wrote:Thanks for the post, Ahnimus. This is way too long for me to watch at work, I hope I can get to it tonight at home.
did you jus thank him for posting something you didn't read?0 -
I read his post, I just can't watch the videos until tonight.macgyver06 wrote:did you jus thank him for posting something you didn't read?"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 19630 -
Atheists = Quitters 0
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lucylespian wrote:Trouble is, you can't logically attack faith with reason, cos belief and reason are inherently different
I appreciate your intellectual discourse, but I have to disagree with this statement. First of all tools of logic are a product of reason, which makes the statement fallacious. Secondly, it is inconsistent with philosophical history, as philosophers have been successfully attacking faith with reason since faith was invented.
The fact that things are inherently opposed does not disqualify them from logical discourse.0 -
How so?macgyver06 wrote:Atheists = Quitters"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 19630 -
The Doc wrote:I appreciate your intellectual discourse, but I have to disagree with this statement. First of all tools of logic are a product of reason, which makes the statement fallacious. Secondly, it is inconsistent with philosophical history, as philosophers have been successfully attacking faith with reason since faith was invented.
The fact that things are inherently opposed does not disqualify them from logical discourse.
Well, here's some logic: faith isn't religion, religion isn't a belief in god.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.0 -
wish some prominent athiests would step out of the closet....convinced once atheism takes hold in our Christian society..it will take off.catefrances wrote:the trouble with atheism is when you tell people you are an atheist they think you're going through a phase or are just confused. so i guess the trouble is less about atheism and more about people's absence-of-religion tolerence.10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG0 -
callen wrote:wish some prominent athiests would step out of the closet....convinced once atheism takes hold in our Christian society..it will take off.
It's already here, it has been for a long time. It doesn't need to "take off". That'd be too much like...um...you know, that other thing.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.0 -
gue_barium wrote:It's already here, it has been for a long time. It doesn't need to "take off". That'd be too much like...um...you know, that other thing.
not seen one prominent mainstream person say...."I'm an Atheist"...and do applogize on the taking off phrase...poorly written. (-:10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG0
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