what's the fucking deal with Israel?

swallowedwords

Byrnzie wrote:

So you live in Israel. O.k. So your reality is a life within Israel. I'd like to ask you what you think about the Palestinians living not a million miles away in conditions of extreme poverty and desperation. http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/01/04/despair_poverty_rise_in_palestinian_area/5010/

'...hunger is an ongoing issue. Food security for Gaza's 1.5 million people has also been steadily deteriorating. (Food insecurity, according to the United Nations, describes the circumstance in which people cannot be sure of getting access to adequate supplies of nutritious and safe food.)

A U.N. World Food Program initiative called Emergency Food Needs Assessment showed that 51 percent of Palestinians are food insecure in the occupied territory as a whole, with 70 percent food insecure in Gaza.

The main factors affecting Palestinians' access to food, exacerbated by the second intifada, are Israeli imposed restrictions on their internal and external movement. Limited Palestinian control over their natural resources -- in particular water and agricultural land -- is another major factor.

Furthermore, chronic malnutrition and dietary-related diseases are slowly increasing, WHO has reported.

Anemia amongst children age nine to 12 months stands at 69 percent in Gaza and 47 percent in the West Bank, with 33 percent of women of childbearing age affected. The number of cases of stunting, low birth weights and premature deaths is also increasing.

Some 70 percent of Palestinians are estimated by the United Nations Children's Fund to be living below the poverty line. According to UNRWA and the Palestinian Ministry of Social Affairs, the number of chronic poor has risen sharply...'

You talk about having an opinion and about 'reality' yet you haven't presented any opinion on the issue. And in case you're wondering - just because you live in Israel, doesn't mean that your word on this subject is sacred. According to U.N observers your government is currently responsible for an ongoing crime against humanity. What's your opinion on that?

http://www.arabnews.com/?article=105886

I warn you that you may find the following photos upsetting...but unfortunately this is the 'reality'....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7942

If someone posted graphic pictures of Israeli women and children blown to bits, would you shed as many tears as you do with Arabs? You know, people on both sides of this conflict go back and forth on this board throwing blame around (myself included), but the sad fact is, violence begets violence. Both sides have used brutal force against one another.

The bottom line is, Israel is a Jewish state, and it will remain that way. Israelis will ONLY begin to turn over the occupied territories, when and if the barbaric suicide bombings/mortar attacks end. Every time both sides make any kind progress towards a peaceful solution, some moronic savage straps explosives to his/her waist, praises merciful Allah, and goes out to destroy not only innocent life, but progress towards peace. Then, everyone gasps in horror when Israel loses faith and retaliates. This is what happens, and will probably always happen. You could set your watch by it.

I truly feel for those Arabs who want a genuine peace, but I feel absolutely no sympathy for those who celebrate the loss of innocent life as a holy deed, sanctioned by Allah.

Byrnzie

swallowedwords wrote:

Israelis will ONLY begin to turn over the occupied territories, when and if the barbaric suicide bombings/mortar attacks end. Every time both sides make any kind progress towards a peaceful solution, some moronic savage straps explosives to his/her waist, praises merciful Allah, and goes out to destroy not only innocent life, but progress towards peace. Then, everyone gasps in horror when Israel loses faith and retaliates.

But this is all just a figment of your imagination and has no relation to the facts.

Israel rejects Hamas ceasefire offer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/26/israelandthepalestinians

Hamas threatens to break ceasefire after Israeli air strikes
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1531571/Hamas-threatens-to-break-ceasefire-after-Israeli-air-strikes.html
'Israel and Hamas were on the brink of war last night as a senior member of the Islamic movement hinted that it would stop observing a 20-month-old ceasefire in retaliation for the latest Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip.'

'Major settlement building won't stop'
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517344468&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
'Israel will continue building in Jerusalem as well as in major settlement blocs in the West Bank, even as a construction freeze continues elsewhere in the territories, a senior Israeli official said Thursday.'

'Israel approves building of homes in West Bank settlement'
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/09/africa/mideast.php
'A senior Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, condemned the decision, saying it indicated that Israel "wants to demolish the peace process and demolish the international efforts to advance" it.'

Open

swallowedwords wrote:

If someone posted graphic pictures of Israeli women and children blown to bits, would you shed as many tears as you do with Arabs? You know, people on both sides of this conflict go back and forth on this board throwing blame around (myself included), but the sad fact is, violence begets violence. Both sides have used brutal force against one another.

The bottom line is, Israel is a Jewish state, and it will remain that way. Israelis will ONLY begin to turn over the occupied territories, when and if the barbaric suicide bombings/mortar attacks end. Every time both sides make any kind progress towards a peaceful solution, some moronic savage straps explosives to his/her waist, praises merciful Allah, and goes out to destroy not only innocent life, but progress towards peace. Then, everyone gasps in horror when Israel loses faith and retaliates. This is what happens, and will probably always happen. You could set your watch by it.

I truly feel for those Arabs who want a genuine peace, but I feel absolutely no sympathy for those who celebrate the loss of innocent life as a holy deed, sanctioned by Allah.

It's those pictures that push the suicide bombing. Radical islam uses the pain, fear, and hopelessness created by Israels actions to recruit people to strap bombs to themselves.

Byrnzie

Open wrote:

It's those pictures that push the suicide bombing. Radical islam uses the pain, fear, and hopelessness created by Israels actions to recruit people to strap bombs to themselves.

So you mean that the reality of the occupation created by Israels actions helps to breed acts of retaliation by the Palestinians? O.k.

Byrnzie

Open wrote:

It's those pictures that push the suicide bombing. Radical islam uses the pain, fear, and hopelessness created by Israels actions to recruit people to strap bombs to themselves.

Israeli's don't need to strap bombs to themselves. They have the second biggest fleet of F16's in the world.
Still, attacks by F16's on civilian areas still constitute terrorism.

Israel targets civilians and UN personnel with impunity
By Jean Shaoul
12 December 2002
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/isra-d12.shtml

Israel's Crimes against Palestinians: War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity, Genocide
http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html

Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14343.htm

Book Review: The Case Against Israel
Raymond Deane, The Electronic Intifada, 9 May 2006
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4690.shtml
'...As for "terrorism", which he defines as "random violence against non-combatants", he distinguishes it from "collateral damage" with the assertion that the latter "involves knowingly killing innocent civilians" while "Terrorism involves intentionally killing innocent civilians", concluding that "the moral difference is too academic even for an academic." Why, then, is "terrorism" considered to be particularly morally repugnant, while "collateral damage" tends to be taken in our moral stride?

"Imagine trying to make such a claim. You say: 'To achieve my objectives, I would certainly drop bombs with the knowledge that they would blow the arms off some children. But to achieve those same objectives, I would not plant or set off a bomb on the ground with the knowledge that it would have that same effect. After all, I have planes to do that, I don't need to plant bombs.' As a claim of moral superiority, this needs a little work."

The Palestinians, he repeats, are without options. Israel has all the options, principally that of unilateral withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, but refuses to use them. Hence he refuses "to pronounce judgment on Palestinian terrorism."

Open

Byrnzie wrote:

So you mean that the reality of the occupation created by Israels actions helps to breed acts of retaliation by the Palestinians? O.k.

Exactly.

Heineken Helen

zootown wrote:

Wow, what a thread. Id like to take a stab at this one, Helen. If there is one thing about America that you may or may not know is that our government will NEVER admit they are wrong. Whether we are talking about this issue or others (the war on drugs, illegal immigration, health care, environmental policy, foreign policy), American leaders will always see being confident and self-assured as more important than being "right". Im not on either "side" of this complex and emotionally charged debate. In some ways, I see this conflict as amazingly symbolic of what will become of our world- can humans learn to overcome and forgive each other and truly make strides towards peace OR will the hidden agendas and back room dealings continue to be the order of the day. Im guessing that you have read Thoreau's "civil disobedience" essay- this is how I feel......

thanks but it's not really what I'm looking for. I mean, whatever about the reasons why the government do it, I'm just wondering why quite a few Americans are ok with that (don't worry, I know there's just as many who AREN'T ok with it) but right now, your economy's going down the drain and your up to your neck in debt for wars which one of the reasons you're involved in is simply to protect another country

Heineken Helen

Byrnzie wrote:

So you live in Israel. O.k. So your reality is a life within Israel. I'd like to ask you what you think about the Palestinians living not a million miles away in conditions of extreme poverty and desperation. http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/01/04/despair_poverty_rise_in_palestinian_area/5010/

'...hunger is an ongoing issue. Food security for Gaza's 1.5 million people has also been steadily deteriorating. (Food insecurity, according to the United Nations, describes the circumstance in which people cannot be sure of getting access to adequate supplies of nutritious and safe food.)

A U.N. World Food Program initiative called Emergency Food Needs Assessment showed that 51 percent of Palestinians are food insecure in the occupied territory as a whole, with 70 percent food insecure in Gaza.

The main factors affecting Palestinians' access to food, exacerbated by the second intifada, are Israeli imposed restrictions on their internal and external movement. Limited Palestinian control over their natural resources -- in particular water and agricultural land -- is another major factor.

Furthermore, chronic malnutrition and dietary-related diseases are slowly increasing, WHO has reported.

Anemia amongst children age nine to 12 months stands at 69 percent in Gaza and 47 percent in the West Bank, with 33 percent of women of childbearing age affected. The number of cases of stunting, low birth weights and premature deaths is also increasing.

Some 70 percent of Palestinians are estimated by the United Nations Children's Fund to be living below the poverty line. According to UNRWA and the Palestinian Ministry of Social Affairs, the number of chronic poor has risen sharply...'

You talk about having an opinion and about 'reality' yet you haven't presented any opinion on the issue. And in case you're wondering - just because you live in Israel, doesn't mean that your word on this subject is sacred. According to U.N observers your government is currently responsible for an ongoing crime against humanity. What's your opinion on that?

http://www.arabnews.com/?article=105886

I warn you that you may find the following photos upsetting...but unfortunately this is the 'reality'....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7942

I'm pretty sure Einat knows the reality :( . I didn't find her post all that biased either considering she's Israeli. She mentioned those on both sides working together for peace... there really is no need to lecture her but yes, I would have liked to hear more of her side of it though. It's easy for us to judge and decide which side is right and which is wrong or that both sides are right and wrong... but Einat's a young Israeli girl living IN the midst of all this... it's hardly her fault. If someone was showing me pics of IRA victims and asking me how I felt about that... I'm sorry but you'd be getting quite the earful right now.

fuck

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm pretty sure Einat knows the reality :( . I didn't find her post all that biased either considering she's Israeli. She mentioned those on both sides working together for peace... there really is no need to lecture her but yes, I would have liked to hear more of her side of it though. It's easy for us to judge and decide which side is right and which is wrong or that both sides are right and wrong... but Einat's a young Israeli girl living IN the midst of all this... it's hardly her fault. If someone was showing me pics of IRA victims and asking me how I felt about that... I'm sorry but you'd be getting quite the earful right now.

No one said anything was her fault. However, when someone comes into the thread and starts with personal attacks like:

einatshaul wrote:

what planet are you on.

einatshaul wrote:

Wow. It's been a while since I read such ignorant bullshit.

einatshaul wrote:

I do not need to address your points. They are not based on reality.

einatshaul wrote:

It saddens me to read all these misguided opinions of people who obviously have no clue what goes on in the Middle East and base it all on the occasional propaganda and bias.

...then it really doesn't show her to be much better than anyone else...

also, she insinuated that none of us here know enough about the crisis because (she assumed, again) that none of us ever went to palestine or israel, which is a ridiculous statement in itself.

she also didn't care to try to refute anyone's statements, or expand on her personal thoughts about the conflict. yes, she mentioned people from both nations trying to work together, but she says that as if none of us already know that...

Heineken Helen

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

No one said anything was her fault. However, when someone comes into the thread and starts with personal attacks like:

...then it really doesn't show her to be much better than anyone else...

also, she insinuated that none of us here know enough about the crisis because (she assumed, again) that none of us ever went to palestine or israel, which is a ridiculous statement in itself.

she also didn't care to try to refute anyone's statements, or expand on her personal thoughts about the conflict. yes, she mentioned people from both nations trying to work together, but she says that as if none of us already know that...

Oh like I said I'd like to hear more of her side definitely. And it's not too far of a leap for her to assume that nobody's been there... you're the only one to say you have. I hear stereotypes about Ireland here all the time and 9 out of 10 times they've never been out of the US. It certainly DOESN'T make her better than anyone else indeed but I would be very interested in hearing what she, or any other Israeli, has to say. Still no need to try and make her look at pics of victims though... that's a whole different story :(

fuck

Heineken Helen wrote:

And it's not too far of a leap for her to assume that nobody's been there... you're the only one to say you have.

that's not my point. my point is that you can still know a lot about the conflict even if you haven't visited the countries...

Heineken Helen

_FiveAgainstOne_ wrote:

that's not my point. my point is that you can still know a lot about the conflict even if you haven't visited the countries...

Oh absolutely! But I have protestant friends in Northern Ireland... we may be on 'different sides' but they were born there, they didn't ask for it and they certainly didn't like it (the conflict). I'm not saying Einat's opinion is more valid than anybody elses... but we've yet to actually HEAR the opinion of anyone from/living there IN this thread. And yes, she may have jumped in all guns blazing... but perhaps put yourself in her shoes... coming into a thread with a load of foreigners all deciding what's right/wrong in your country and deciding what the best course of action is. I don't think many of us would be very happy. Like when I discuss American foreign policies, many americans hate me for it and think I hate them... but, rather than arguing with them over it, I'd rather have a civilised discussion about our differences. It's difficult a lot of the time and it's probably yet to be done... but I'm sure it can happen.

Heineken Helen

Heineken Helen wrote:

thanks but it's not really what I'm looking for. I mean, whatever about the reasons why the government do it, I'm just wondering why quite a few Americans are ok with that (don't worry, I know there's just as many who AREN'T ok with it) but right now, your economy's going down the drain and your up to your neck in debt for wars which one of the reasons you're involved in is simply to protect another country

Hmm... nobody, huh? Too chicken to take this one on? :cool:

sweetpotato

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

you can fantasize all you want.. what would your husband say? Is he still around?

heyy-o

sure he is. why, you looking for a new bromance?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

sweetpotato wrote:

sure he is. why, you looking for a new bromance?

Why is he gay?

Heineken Helen

Heineken Helen wrote:

thanks but it's not really what I'm looking for. I mean, whatever about the reasons why the government do it, I'm just wondering why quite a few Americans are ok with that (don't worry, I know there's just as many who AREN'T ok with it) but right now, your economy's going down the drain and your up to your neck in debt for wars which one of the reasons you're involved in is simply to protect another country

Nobody... AT ALL???? Wow! So you're all ok with justifying it but can't bring yourself to justify the fact that you're FUNDING it... many of you who probably can't even afford your own house, or may lose your house soon... maybe your job's not so secure right now, look at the victims of Katrina still looking for stability, there are people in your country STARVING. Imagine what could be done with all that money at home.

Byrnzie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nobody... AT ALL???? Wow! So you're all ok with justifying it but can't bring yourself to justify the fact that you're FUNDING it... many of you who probably can't even afford your own house, or may lose your house soon... maybe your job's not so secure right now, look at the victims of Katrina still looking for stability, there are people in your country STARVING. Imagine what could be done with all that money at home.

The alliance with Israel is a hangover from the cold war and does the U.S more harm than good. The U.S would be far better off if it switched sides and backed the Palestinian cause.

Heineken Helen

Byrnzie wrote:

The alliance with Israel is a hangover from the cold war and does the U.S more harm than good. The U.S would be far better off if it switched sides and backed the Palestinian cause.

that's not what I asked . I want the people who are supporting the Israel cause to say if they're ok with their government spending so much of THEIR money in order to take one side in a war thousands of miles away... especially when some of them have admitted that both sides are right and wrong! Would they not prefer at LEAST that their government invest all that money trying to bring PEACE rather than war to the region?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

How DARE they have an unauthorized picnic?

10 days is too long...let then out early on good behavior...

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=44234

edit: "May 21, 2008

NAZARETH, (PIC)-- An Israeli military court sentenced three Israeli servicemen to ten days behind bars as a disciplinary measure for "killing" a Palestinian man in northern Ramallah during a picnic."

evenkat

Heineken Helen wrote:

And why are all the candidates going on about how they'll protect it? Does it not piss you off that your country is probably spending BILLIONS a year to protect another country halfway around the world... a conflict that only makes you a target? As an outsider, it seems pretty fucking ridiculous! I know about the whole money thing and how america is run by Jews and all that BUT... fucking hell, could their intentions BE more obvious?

They're probably just trying to get the Jewish vote because there are over 6 million Jews in the US. Of course protecting Israel where they may have families and where their ancestry comes from it's an important issue to them just like Ireland is to me

Just think how many other conflicts and wars the US picked a side and aided them too. It gets even more ridiculous! Does it piss me off? Yes because of the extent of the aid. The government wastes a ton of money every day that could be for a better use.

Ok the Jews do not run America lol. The US lets Israel borrow about 1/3 of the US foreign aid in grant and stuff. So if anything the US owns them but that being said the US borrows trillions of dollars from China. How ironic is that? So if the US is to blame for the continuing conflict in the Middle East, would China also share the blame then?