i pity the godless....

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

And what if God does not wish to be seen on this earth?
.

And there ended the argument.

dunkman

farfromglorified wrote:

Well, you're not really asking a question when you already have an answer.

i am, its like me asking a child where Santa lives... i dont believe in Santa and i dont know the story of where he lives... is it Lapland, North Pole, i dont know.... but i want to know what the believer of Santa has to say about it...

just because i dont believe in something doesnt mean i cant ask questions about the logic and theories of others who do believe in something...

i dont believe in any god or religion... but does that mean i cant ask people on here things like "how did Cain, Abel, et al have children" "how did Noah get all those animals into his ark... what about the poor polar bear.. was he left to die... surely Noah didnt go all the way around the world collecting 2 of all species"... i dont believe but i want to know what those 'answers' might be...

cornnifer

Hoon wrote:

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.


The only divide amongst most people is between:

1. A "god" that is human like in the sky, the listening to humans type (that I don't believe in)

2.A "god" as simply everything, amazing complexity, science

3. "god" as in the order in the chaos of peoples actions in all history, the karma god

4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing.

I think it may be possible to know "god" better if you are an athiest for a while. May give you a clearer picture.

I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing", it may work for some people but I worry how it limits your reality, experience, and enjoyment of life. But it can work for some.

You have to learn how "small" you are, but also how "big" you are. Get in touch with suffering, helps with understanding people, be hungry, fast, be hot. Clear your head of what is junk. Thats how the gorge was last weekend, like a desert purification.

See the patterns in nature that keep showing up. The structure of the: Cell, solar system, ecosystem, galaxy, atom, universe, dna. In chaos there is always order if you move closer or farther away. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality.

The point I get to in my gaian-agnosticism is:

There is the universe. Everything seems to be inside something. What is the universe inside? How could anything exist? It seems things are created and/or come from something. How could a god then exist? What came before?

There is some sorta limitation that does involve how humans perceive reality.

p.s. Killing someone is never an answer, avoid doing this in your life. If your job requires you to do this, Please, for yourself, find another job, because your boss isn't trying hard enough to understand, and certainly does not know god.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

I'm not slagging anyone. There was obviously thought that went into this and I respect peoples opinions provided it was a thought out one and actually has a point to it. This seems to at least meet those two general criteria. That being said...

"My "god" is nature and earth and the universe".

That's great, but to many of us that is worshipping the creation and completely neglecting the creator. Its like happening upon a Pearl Jam Album, recognizing its brilliance, and completely ignoring the fact there is a group of extremely gifted musicians that made it.


"4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing".

O.k. but there is multifaceted danger in seeking enlightenment through halucinegenic drugs. Lets not confuse spiritual enlightenment with being stoned out of your fucking gourd!

"I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing","

Nor do I. Its a mistake to imply that this is the nature of faith. As if people of faith only have faith because they we're "programmed".

angelica

danmac wrote:

1) Define love.

2) I don't tell other people about that 'love' I may have, I don't go to war in the name of that love, or use that love as a tool of oppression, or brow beat other people with that love, nor do i start threads that state "I pity those without my love,"

3) Love is a chemical process in the brain. It is not an object, nor a person, but a feeling. 'God' allegedly, is an object who created the object upon which we live. Feelings cannot creat anything but more feelings.

I don't hear an answer to my question: "Can you show me your personal experience of love? Is it real?"

Is that because you cannot show your personal experience of love?

By your own logic, does your inability to point to it in the "real world" make it not real?

danmac

cornnifer wrote:

That's great, but to many of us that is worshipping the creation and completely neglecting the creator. Its like happening upon a Pearl Jam Album, recognizing its brilliance, and completely ignoring the fact there is a group of extremely gifted musicians that made it.

".

Err, slightly different in the fact that most here, and millions around the world, have actually, physically seen the mebers of Pearl Jam in the flesh.

Failed analogy I think, but good try ;-)

If god existed, and he "chosoes not to reveal himself" does that make him a lover of war and death?

Surely, he would hate to see what is happening to his creations down on the planet.

And what of evolution, anyways? And really, it isn't just a theory anymore.

Were the dinosaurs an early attempt at creation? Or do you believe int he Old Testament that the earth is 6000 years old, or whatever it said based on teh number of tribes and all that malarkey.

The dinosaurs. Gotta throw a spanner in the works ,eh?

dunkman

angelica wrote:

I don't hear an answer to my question: "Can you show me your personal experience of love? Is it real?"

to be fair nobody has answered his...

danmac

angelica wrote:

I don't hear an answer to my question: "Can you show me your personal experience of love? Is it real?"

Is that because you cannot show your personal experience of love?

By your own logic, does your inability to point to it in the "real world" make it not real?

Your question has no relavence to the point trying to be made. Its the old watch thing again, but dressed up in a different suit.

What is this personal love you speak of?

Love cannot crete the universe and heavens in 6 days, then rest on the seventh.

Your 'god', can, apparently.

Show me god, ill give you faith. Simple.

cornnifer

ruud wrote:

very well written. great point. you cannot ignore this. how about this classic line

If God is almighty, then can he create a stone that he cannot carry?...thats how it goes...get the idea dont you?

Ahh... yes. The Omnipotence paradox. If God CAN create the stone, then his power is limited because there is something he cannot do. Carry the stone. If God CANNOT create such a stone, then his power is, again, limited because there is something he cannot do. Create the stone.
Its a classic line allright. Problem is,... its a classic line of bullshit.

cornnifer

danmac wrote:

Err, slightly different in the fact that most here, and millions around the world, have actually, physically seen the mebers of Pearl Jam in the flesh.

Failed analogy I think, but good try ;-)

?

Not different. And not a failed analogy. The analogy was never intended as proof of God. It was aimed at... oh forget it.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

And there ended the argument.

Your problem is that you cannot imagine something superceding the basic tools of your perception. And while simple imagination cannot prove that something supercedes your perception, the expectation that something greater than your perceptions is required to show itself to you is equally as foolish.

danmac

cornnifer wrote:

That's great, but to many of us that is worshipping the creation and completely neglecting the creator. Its like happening upon a Pearl Jam Album, recognizing its brilliance, and completely ignoring the fact there is a group of extremely gifted musicians that made it.

quote]

I look at this beautiful planet, and I feel priveleged that evolution, that nature, could create such a wonder over such a long time, and see fit to have me live on it for a speck on that timeline.

That is not ignoring it. There was no creator. Pearl Jam create music, and we can physically see the people that created it. We can acknowledge them at concerts for doing so. We accpet that 5 (6 sorry boom) created that music between them.

Can you physically see the person you believe created the earth upon which you live?

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

Your problem is that you cannot imagine something superceding the basic tools of your perception. And while simple imagination cannot prove that something supercedes your perception, the expectation that something greater than your perceptions is required to show itself to you is equally as foolish.

Ok then, dude, ill take evidence from someobdy else then. Video, photo, eye witness statements.

I'm easy.

cornnifer

danmac wrote:

cornnifer wrote:

That's great, but to many of us that is worshipping the creation and completely neglecting the creator. Its like happening upon a Pearl Jam Album, recognizing its brilliance, and completely ignoring the fact there is a group of extremely gifted musicians that made it.

quote]

I look at this beautiful planet, and I feel priveleged that evolution, that nature, could create such a wonder over such a long time, and see fit to have me live on it for a speck on that timeline.

That is not ignoring it. There was no creator. Pearl Jam create music, and we can physically see the people that created it. We can acknowledge them at concerts for doing so. We accpet that 5 (6 sorry boom) created that music between them.

Can you physically see the person you believe created the earth upon which you live?

You're missing the point of the analogy I made and the intention of it, so, again, I say... forget it. I am not going to run around in circles with you aimlessly.

Pearl Jam and toast

MCG wrote:

religous people who think they need to preach to the world. I'm glad for people who have found something to believe in if it makes them happy and allows them to live their life better. Trying to change someone's beliefs is a fools game, no matter how good your 'watch' example may be.

I don't think the truth about any of the magic in this world has or will ever be revealed, and I do have trouble believing the teaching of a book that's been translated in several different languages, re-written serveral times, writtten hundreds of years after the fact and is not based on historical evidence and facts. That is not to say I don't believe in a "God", just not God in a conventional sense.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

danmac

cornnifer wrote:

danmac wrote:

You're missing the point of the analogy I made and the intention of it, so, again, I say... forget it. I am not going to run around in circles with you aimlessly.

What is aimless?

You likened music to the earth, God to Pearl Jam.

You then said those who do not believe in god are ignoring the creator.

I merely state that we can see Pearl Jam, nobody can see this 'god' of yours.

Thanks for the input though.

angelica

danmac wrote:

Your question has no relavence to the point trying to be made. Its the old watch thing again, but dressed up in a different suit.

What is this personal love you speak of?

Love cannot crete the universe and heavens in 6 days, then rest on the seventh.

Your 'god', can, apparently.

Show me god, ill give you faith. Simple.

In your earlier post you alluded to the fact that you can point to things in the external world to show others. You claimed one cannot show God.

There are many things we cannot prove or show others, like our experience of love. You cannot show me what you thought yesterday at 5:00 pm. And yet the unproveable exists.

The point is because you have not experienced God and do not know God or cannot point to God proves merely that you have not experienced God, do not know God and cannot prove he exists.

What I'm saying is you are no closer to proving your view as more sensical than mine. Because you seem to predominantly define reality as being the external world is a far cry from proving such a view as more "normal" or common-sensical than others who value the inner subjective understandings of the external world.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

Ok then, dude, ill take evidence from someobdy else then. Video, photo, eye witness statements.

Ok. Take evidence from somewhere else. Now prove to me God cannot exist.

newagehippie

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

Please, feel free to pray for me if that makes you feel better. There has been more blood shed and more politics in religion than we shall ever know. Since the beginning of time (when was that?) or at least as far back as written history goes, religion has been a tool used to control the masses by fear, to proft off of the masses, and to keep peace within a "community". Most scholars will admit that it is impossible to recover the "real" or "authentic" versions of the disciples writings due to the numerous edits, assumption, and inferred meanings that have taken place over the centuries, along with the lack of ALL of the disciples writings and not just a few. It is common knowledge that in Roman times, rulers merged traditional pagan beliefs into the ever popular and growing religion know as "christianity" in order to keep the peace in their society. And this is just "christanity", but the same goes for most mass religions.
With that said, that doesn't mean there is no god, it just means that maybe what others have taught you that god is, is really just a medium to manipulate your mind in to believing what they want you to believe. Every human should look deep with in themselves and nature to find each persons individual god. God is not something to comes to you from the heavens, it is not something that will strike you down if you say fuck, and it is not something that demands attention. God answers to no particular name. God is the energy that lives in each of us, the energy that connects physically and spiritually whether you believe it or not, and you cannot create nor destroy this energy. But that is just MY god.
There are no coincidences in life, there are no mistakes if you learn from them, and there are no pre-determined lives. Some people choose to "express their spirituality" with large gatherings of folks, while having a person tell you their interpretation of their readings of a book that was written by men aobut their interpretations of certain accounts in history. I personally find that with mass groups of people, their are negative enrgies that cancel out the positive, therefore I prefer to "express my spirituality" amongst smaller groups of positive people and share energy rather than have it cancelled out by someone I may or may not even know. I pitty those who can't think for themselves and accept others interpretations about what THEIR god is......

Pearl Jam and toast

God can exist.

Might not... who knows?

You'll never prove it one way or the other.

I'll tell you this though, if there is a god, putting in a book what you want it to say would be one of the most backhanded, manipulative things a person could do.

I'm not an atheist, but I will never follow a religion.


p.s. new age hippie, you should really space out your words so it's easier to read

danmac

angelica wrote:

In your earlier post you alluded to the fact that you can point to things in the external world to show others. You claimed one cannot show God.
.

Ok then, show me god. Not love, or thought, but god. Show me it.

If he's there, so powerful, show me him. Or in the least, show me somebody who has.

Love and thought are chemical reactions designed to profligate the survival of the species. Dress it up in as much spiritual mumbo jumbo all you want, but we are a being based upon, consisting of, a mixture of chemicals and elements. No more than eating, sleeping, breeding machines. There is no reason to our existence other than that we exist.

Show me god.