i pity the godless....

surferdude

sourdough wrote:

I used to be very, very pious, almost fanatical at times I think and my best friends are people who I met through church. No I don't believe in God anymore, and I think for a variety of reasons. I think I began to realise that the church was playing on mostly emotional appeals and found it to be a bit manipulative to the point where I began to question what was real and was was merely emotional manipulation to convince me that I was filled with the "spirit".

Secondly as I got older I started to question things like the rationality and accuracy of the bible. I also learned much more about science and the more I learned at school, the more things made sense to me. I wasn't necessarily abandoning God at this point, but I found I had no answers from the bible or from the church, except I had to have faith, but nothing was given to ground me in it.

I really wish I could believe in a God, but I can't and won't just so I can deceive myself in believing something I really don't. this probably doesn't make much sense to you, but it does to me. I guess I'm a skeptic and science provides me with more answers than God.

I can appreciate all this. But I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

... I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

This is the crux of the issue. For those who are about making the other guy wrong, well such an agenda is on the table for all to see. And when our agenda is about honest questions and answers, that is clear as well.

sourdough

surferdude wrote:

I can appreciate all this. But I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

Honestly, I wish that God would disappear from everybody's consciousness and reliance. It would make the world a much simpler place I think, however that said, I have a lot of respect for the church. I cringe at the thought of what would happen if overnight the church would disappear. The church picks up the bulk of charitable drives, soup kitchens, and society needs the church right now if the gov't or atheists won't pick up the slack.

I think one thing that bugged me was that even if I were to accept Jesus as son of God, I think of him as vengeful like the God of the Old Testament, and I'm not cool with that. Although his message was love, and that he loved all of us, I can't imagine why he would still send us to eternal hell if we didn't believe even if we were good humans.

surferdude

sourdough wrote:

Honestly, I wish that God would disappear from everybody's consciousness and reliance. It would make the world a much simpler place I think, however that said, I have a lot of respect for the church. I cringe at the thought of what would happen if overnight the church would disappear. The church picks up the bulk of charitable drives, soup kitchens, and society needs the church right now if the gov't or atheists won't pick up the slack.

I think one thing that bugged me was that even if I were to accept Jesus as son of God, I think of him as vengeful like the God of the Old Testament, and I'm not cool with that. Although his message was love, and that he loved all of us, I can't imagine why he would still send us to eternal hell if we didn't believe even if we were good humans.

There is much I don't understand, and I have plenty of questions. Kinda a lot like my grasp of advanced physics. String theory or quantum physics, it's always such a tough choice as to which to believe in.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

God/consciousness/spirit is eternal. No beginning no end.

If that was the flaw in the train of thought, now what? The original argument stands?

The ID arguement is an attempt to make god a science, which god is not. In the scientific sense of ID the concept is flawed for the reason I stated.

It's pointless to debate god's existance, I simply said that it's not a scientifically sound proof of god.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

There is much I don't understand, and I have plenty of questions. Kinda a lot like my grasp of advanced physics. String theory or quantum physics, it's always such a tough choice as to which to believe in.

Awesome post.

fruth

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

First off, I do believe in GOD.

Secondly, what kind of Christian are you when you start a flame thread on a message board attacking others beliefs? Degrading them by calling them small minded? Dont espouse some nonesense about Jesus wanting all Christians to spread the gospel, because I am almost positive he would not approve of you viscious flame thread. It's time to practice what you preach, or shut the fuck up.


Thirdly, what makes you think that man is such a superior being? Check your ego at the door, we are not that great.

Rhinocerous Surprise

surferdude wrote:

It's not at all like that. Your question is liking asking someone for proof that they have ever loved someone. Many truths are impossible to prove.

I was just bustin your chops a little...
I do respect anyone who believes in a god... And anyone who doesn't...
Well, not anyone on either side, obviously - what I'm trying to say (and failing miserably ) is that religious beliefs don't factor into my respecting anyone.

My main point on this thread was that I found my answer - I hit the point where I realised religion wasn't working for me, and went with that... You found that it works for you, and went with that... Both conclusions are cool with me...

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

The ID arguement is an attempt to make god a science, which god is not. In the scientific sense of ID the concept is flawed for the reason I stated.

It's pointless to debate god's existance, I simply said that it's not a scientifically sound proof of god.

Fair enough. So, within the context of science, it doesn't wash, yet.

It looks like your argument does not hold against what the original poster said, then, as the scientific slant was not being used. The original point still stands, then.

I think as science grows, it's pretty obvious that what once was thought of as "unnatural" or "supernatural" will become encompassed by the term "natural" and we'll understand things that now, we just cannot imagine.

norm

I could have given my opinion on the matter, but Todd Snider, one of the greatest living songwriters, wrote a song that explains my views on the subject.

Happy New Year
From The Devil You Know

happy new year everybody
happy birthday country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
theres an overweight man with an overweight woman on a sofa just watching tv
hes yelling his opinion at the television she looks up from her food and agrees
they got two bumper stickers on there pick up truck
they keep the pick up parked outside
one sticker says "what would jesus do?"
the other bumper sticker says "power of pride"
i was thumbing through the stations on my own television
when i came across a guy on the religous station
singing "somebodys coming" sounding whiter than me somehow
wow
it took me back in time thru dwindling joy
to when i was such a guilt ridden catholic boy
im evangelical agnostic now

i dont know what we're doing here
you don't "KNOW" what were doing here
now christians dont walk out on me just yet
you know whose name im yelling as im clutching my chest
the one my dad told me to and his told him to
and i probably pray as much or more than you do
believe? shit, every word i sing
but believing and knowing, those are two different things
and if your trying to change the way a strangers life will have to go
i believe this is where i wanna stick to what i know
which is nothing you know, nothing for sure so
just chill til the next episode
now back to the lecture at hand
seems like my neighbor wants to kill what he cant understand
i say we cant just kill what we dont understand
but i turn on my tv and see that oh yes we can
we can and we have since then dawn of man
for countless gods whose only real seeming plan
was to see to it that clinging to life was our fate
and you gotta admit that lifes pretty great
but
can we deny that its killing us?
ill be here all week
happy new year everybody
happy birthday country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
i aint hurtin you
if life is anything its embarrassing
a rusty nail thru a careless shoe
you cant help but sit around and wonder sometimes
why there's never anything the poor nail can do
or think about how unfair it is
that the shoe is only going where it has to too
if you aint the dumb kid out running around
you kinda gotta do what your born to do
hey

happy new year everybody
specifically happy birthday to you country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
and i only ever make it a day or two

sourdough

surferdude wrote:

There is much I don't understand, and I have plenty of questions. Kinda a lot like my grasp of advanced physics. String theory or quantum physics, it's always such a tough choice as to which to believe in.

I know jack squat about physics, so I can't debate you here, but the difference is that IF I did want to become educated enought to decide for myself, there are multiple sources of information and data to look at. With religion, I only have the Bible, which the accuracy may be of doubt and the authors are long dead.

Hoon

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.


The only divide amongst most people is between:

1. A "god" that is human like in the sky, the listening to humans type (that I don't believe in)

2.A "god" as simply everything, amazing complexity, science

3. "god" as in the order in the chaos of peoples actions in all history, the karma god

4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing.

I think it may be possible to know "god" better if you are an athiest for a while. May give you a clearer picture.

I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing", it may work for some people but I worry how it limits your reality, experience, and enjoyment of life. But it can work for some.

You have to learn how "small" you are, but also how "big" you are. Get in touch with suffering, helps with understanding people, be hungry, fast, be hot. Clear your head of what is junk. Thats how the gorge was last weekend, like a desert purification.

See the patterns in nature that keep showing up. The structure of the: Cell, solar system, ecosystem, galaxy, atom, universe, dna. In chaos there is always order if you move closer or farther away. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality.

The point I get to in my gaian-agnosticism is:

There is the universe. Everything seems to be inside something. What is the universe inside? How could anything exist? It seems things are created and/or come from something. How could a god then exist? What came before?

There is some sorta limitation that does involve how humans perceive reality.

p.s. Killing someone is never an answer, avoid doing this in your life. If your job requires you to do this, Please, for yourself, find another job, because your boss isn't trying hard enough to understand, and certainly does not know god.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

Abookamongstthemany

Hoon wrote:

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.

The only divide amongst most people is between:

1. A "god" that is human like in the sky, the listening to humans type (that I don't believe in)

2.A "god" as simply everything, amazing complexity, science

3. "god" as in the order in the chaos of peoples actions in all history, the karma god

4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing.

I think it may be possible to know "god" better if you are an athiest for a while. May give you a clearer picture.

I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing", it may work for some people but I worry how it limits your reality, experience, and enjoyment of life. But it can work for some.

You have to learn how "small" you are, but also how "big" you are. Get in touch with suffering, helps with understanding people, be hungry, fast, be hot. Clear your head of what is junk. Thats how the gorge was last weekend, like a desert purification.

See the patterns in nature that keep showing up. The structure of the: Cell, solar system, ecosystem, galaxy, atom, universe, dna. In chaos there is always order if you move closer or farther away. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality.

The point I get to in my gaian-agnosticism is:

There is the universe. Everything seems to be inside something. What is the universe inside? How could anything exist? It seems things are created and/or come from something. How could a god then exist? What came before?

There is some sorta limitation that does involve how humans perceive reality.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

What an awesome post!

Rhinocerous Surprise

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

What an aweosme post!

Agreed. I read that post, and said to myself "This thread has been effectively ended". Simply can't argue with the man's logic. Kudos to you Hoon!

But I'll still not believe in God till I get some answers...

rightondude

Hoon wrote:

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

Great post. In essence, I refer to the enjoying the questions more than the answers part. Some on this earth conclude they already know all the answers and are driven fast (to ignorance) in their beliefs.

I just don't see how someone can ultimately zoom off blindly on a tangent (seemingly forever) like that and continually seek and gain justification without evaluating all the conditions.

How often do we (should we) be pulling the reins back on ourselves instead? (not science)

In my line of work I call it "dust off the machine and fix the customer"

or...another way I look at it is to "realign the screaming shallow mind of confusion"

(insert dueling banjo's here) :P

farfromglorified

Hoon wrote:

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.


The only divide amongst most people is between:

1. A "god" that is human like in the sky, the listening to humans type (that I don't believe in)

2.A "god" as simply everything, amazing complexity, science

3. "god" as in the order in the chaos of peoples actions in all history, the karma god

4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing.

I think it may be possible to know "god" better if you are an athiest for a while. May give you a clearer picture.

I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing", it may work for some people but I worry how it limits your reality, experience, and enjoyment of life. But it can work for some.

You have to learn how "small" you are, but also how "big" you are. Get in touch with suffering, helps with understanding people, be hungry, fast, be hot. Clear your head of what is junk. Thats how the gorge was last weekend, like a desert purification.

See the patterns in nature that keep showing up. The structure of the: Cell, solar system, ecosystem, galaxy, atom, universe, dna. In chaos there is always order if you move closer or farther away. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality.

The point I get to in my gaian-agnosticism is:

There is the universe. Everything seems to be inside something. What is the universe inside? How could anything exist? It seems things are created and/or come from something. How could a god then exist? What came before?

There is some sorta limitation that does involve how humans perceive reality.

p.s. Killing someone is never an answer, avoid doing this in your life. If your job requires you to do this, Please, for yourself, find another job, because your boss isn't trying hard enough to understand, and certainly does not know god.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

This is very well done.

hippiemom

Milestone wrote:

Most of the peaceful non-warring civilizations on earth DIDN'T believe in "God".

(Incas, Mayans, American Indians, many African tribes, ect....)

Where on earth did you get the idea that these groups were peaceful and non-warring and worshipped no gods?

Pearl Jam and toast

i'm not an atheist, i don't worship your idea of satan.

godbless.

rightondude

Something even crazier to realize is that one man's "god" (good) can be another man's "satan" (evil).

RockinInCanada

Hoon wrote:

My "god" is nature and earth and the universe. I find science to be a perfect compliment to religion.


The only divide amongst most people is between:

1. A "god" that is human like in the sky, the listening to humans type (that I don't believe in)

2.A "god" as simply everything, amazing complexity, science

3. "god" as in the order in the chaos of peoples actions in all history, the karma god

4. Like a tear in all we know, once dissolved we are free to grow...."the psychadelic experience" raises alot of questions about reality. With DMT Many come back with an experience of not an altered state but of a different place with entities you speak to. I would not recomend it to mostly everyone, its a personal choice with risk, but this is your only life so.... Stick to mushrooms or DMT if you think you can handle it. Research first, know what your doing.

I think it may be possible to know "god" better if you are an athiest for a while. May give you a clearer picture.

I don't like the whole, "this is your religion from birth programing thing", it may work for some people but I worry how it limits your reality, experience, and enjoyment of life. But it can work for some.

You have to learn how "small" you are, but also how "big" you are. Get in touch with suffering, helps with understanding people, be hungry, fast, be hot. Clear your head of what is junk. Thats how the gorge was last weekend, like a desert purification.

See the patterns in nature that keep showing up. The structure of the: Cell, solar system, ecosystem, galaxy, atom, universe, dna. In chaos there is always order if you move closer or farther away. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality. "Telescope out" and "microscope in" to enhance your reality.

The point I get to in my gaian-agnosticism is:

There is the universe. Everything seems to be inside something. What is the universe inside? How could anything exist? It seems things are created and/or come from something. How could a god then exist? What came before?

There is some sorta limitation that does involve how humans perceive reality.

p.s. Killing someone is never an answer, avoid doing this in your life. If your job requires you to do this, Please, for yourself, find another job, because your boss isn't trying hard enough to understand, and certainly does not know god.

I enjoy the questions more than the answers.

Most thought provoking post I have read in weeks...actually this goes beyond posts...most thought provoking concept I have heard in weeks...thanks Hoon!