i pity the godless....

miskin

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

sourdough

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

I'm sure you are doing nothing but benefitting Jesus by saying something like that.

Abookamongstthemany

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

people make watches... and now people have figured out how to make people.

miskin

ive been broguth up catholic, but dont really believe in jesus and miracles and all that malarchy. i just believe there is something higher than myself. to thinkt that humans are the pinnacle of all creation is worrying almost.

sourdough

So my question to you is why do you believe in a God? What made you believe and who is your god and what does it stand for? Did you just invent this god, or is there a rational reason for your belief?

farfromglorified

miskin wrote:

ive been broguth up catholic, but dont really believe in jesus and miracles and all that malarchy. i just believe there is something higher than myself. to thinkt that humans are the pinnacle of all creation is worrying almost.

Oh my how they've broken you. Dear child, humans are not the "pinnacle" of all creation. Creation is not a contest.

Ahnimus

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

Creationism *sigh*

This is what all Intelligent Design arguers claim. Because a watch was made by man everything complex is made by something.

There is one major flaw in that train of thought. If everything under god is so complex that it must have been created by god, then that means god is the most complex thing in existence, who created god?

Abookamongstthemany

Ahnimus wrote:

Creationism *sigh*

This is what all Intelligent Design arguers claim. Because a watch was made by man everything complex is made by something.

There is one major flaw in that train of thought. If everything under god is so complex that it must have been created by god, then that means god is the most complex thing in existence, who created god?

Stop it!!! I always think of these things when I'm high til it drives me nuts! Who created existance and how far is space, how can there be nothing and at the same time, how can there be something???

surferdude

sourdough wrote:

So my question to you is why do you believe in a God?

I went looking for the truth. What I've found so far convinces me there is a God.

sourdough wrote:

What made you believe and who is your god and what does it stand for?

I believe based on what I've found. As for what God stands for I'm learning a little every day. Love would be a good starting place.

sourdough wrote:

Did you just invent this god, or is there a rational reason for your belief?

Rational reason for my belief. Probably no more so than there is to believe that we are real and not just someone else's dream or imagination.

You obviously seem to believe there is no God. How did you come to this belief? What makes you belief this? Is there a rational reason for your belief? Do you even exist?

Rhinocerous Surprise

The first sentence of this thread reminded me of that Armageddon thread where someone called all atheists anit-christs. Funny stuff...

I was brought up Catholic too... Stopped believin when I was... ooh... 15? I just stopped and realised that I, like most of the kids my age, was going to mass every week cos it's what my parents made me do all my life. Now I was old enough to realise that it wasn't fulfilling me like it was the rest of my family. It never had. I had never really believed in god any more than I had in santa claus - and god didn't even leave any presents under my christmas tree.

Don't pity us atheists cos you believe, any more than you'd want us to pity you cos we don't believe... if that made any sense.

Rhinocerous Surprise

surferdude wrote:

I went looking for the truth. What I've found so far convinces me there is a God.
I believe based on what I've found.

So what exactly did you find?

surferdude

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So what exactly did you find?

I found what I found. Look for yourself then decide for yourself. I think far too many people come to their conclusion before their search.

RockinInCanada

I believe in something cause I cannot answer everything...therefore leaving a mystery that I cannot solve...

Milestone

surferdude wrote:

I went looking for the truth. What I've found so far convinces me there is a God.

Most of the peaceful non-warring civilizations on earth DIDN'T believe in "God".

(Incas, Mayans, American Indians, many African tribes, ect....)


Most of the hating, condemning, warring, and killing civilizations DO believe in "God".

(Christians, Muslims, Jews)


That's the 'truth' that I found....which leads me to believe that there really is not a god.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Creationism *sigh*

This is what all Intelligent Design arguers claim. Because a watch was made by man everything complex is made by something.

There is one major flaw in that train of thought. If everything under god is so complex that it must have been created by god, then that means god is the most complex thing in existence, who created god?

God/consciousness/spirit is eternal. No beginning no end.

If that was the flaw in the train of thought, now what? The original argument stands?

sourdough

surferdude wrote:

I went looking for the truth. What I've found so far convinces me there is a God.
I believe based on what I've found. As for what God stands for I'm learning a little every day. Love would be a good starting place.Rational reason for my belief. Probably no more so than there is to believe that we are real and not just someone else's dream or imagination.

You obviously seem to believe there is no God. How did you come to this belief? What makes you belief this? Is there a rational reason for your belief? Do you even exist?

I used to be very, very pious, almost fanatical at times I think and my best friends are people who I met through church. No I don't believe in God anymore, and I think for a variety of reasons. I think I began to realise that the church was playing on mostly emotional appeals and found it to be a bit manipulative to the point where I began to question what was real and was was merely emotional manipulation to convince me that I was filled with the "spirit".

Secondly as I got older I started to question things like the rationality and accuracy of the bible. I also learned much more about science and the more I learned at school, the more things made sense to me. I wasn't necessarily abandoning God at this point, but I found I had no answers from the bible or from the church, except I had to have faith, but nothing was given to ground me in it.

I really wish I could believe in a God, but I can't and won't just so I can deceive myself in believing something I really don't. this probably doesn't make much sense to you, but it does to me. I guess I'm a skeptic and science provides me with more answers than God.

rightondude

" I Pity the Fool that Pities or tries to rise themselves above the "Fool" "

They do it to elevate themselves. Makes me want to puke just as bad as the 180 of the scenario.

Be the line inbetween that looks closely at both sides for what they really are.

wrongness to the left....wrongness to the right. So, what is right?

Forget the #$%^ past, in this matter it is of no constructive use.

Stop and think about the right now. As in right this very second. Achieve clarity. Empty your mind of all thought, then reintroduce what you see as the ultimate solution. Now how would you accomplish it? more killing on either side?

LanceUppercut

I took intro to philosphy too. That is right out of the text. That is one of many arguements for/against god. That example proves nothing on it's own.

I love how you copied and pasted out of your textbook. Saves people moeny from having to buy them and makes you look like you are smarter than you really are. win win!

angelica

Milestone wrote:

Most of the peaceful non-warring civilizations on earth DIDN'T believe in "God".

(Incas, Mayans, American Indians, many African tribes, ect....)

I consider all concepts of a higher spiritual reality to be the same thing looked at through different lenses. Especially in talking of where we came from--extending from a spiritual power is the same at the base of most known spiritual practises, including some if not all that you mention above.

Rhinocerous Surprise

surferdude wrote:

I found what I found. Look for yourself then decide for yourself. I think far too many people come to their conclusion before their search.

"I found what I found" is not an answer, in my book. If that qualifies as an answer, how do you know who has searched before reaching their conclusions?

"Hey, do you believe in God?"
"Yes, I did my research and what I found proves for a fact that God exists."
"Oh really? That's so cool, what did you find?"
"I, um.... found what I found..."

And so on.

surferdude

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

"I found what I found" is not an answer, in my book. If that qualifies as an answer, how do you know who has searched before reaching their conclusions?

"Hey, do you believe in God?"
"Yes, I did my research and what I found proves for a fact that God exists."
"Oh really? That's so cool, what did you find?"
"I, um.... found what I found..."

And so on.

It's not at all like that. Your question is liking asking someone for proof that they have ever loved someone. Many truths are impossible to prove.

surferdude

sourdough wrote:

I used to be very, very pious, almost fanatical at times I think and my best friends are people who I met through church. No I don't believe in God anymore, and I think for a variety of reasons. I think I began to realise that the church was playing on mostly emotional appeals and found it to be a bit manipulative to the point where I began to question what was real and was was merely emotional manipulation to convince me that I was filled with the "spirit".

Secondly as I got older I started to question things like the rationality and accuracy of the bible. I also learned much more about science and the more I learned at school, the more things made sense to me. I wasn't necessarily abandoning God at this point, but I found I had no answers from the bible or from the church, except I had to have faith, but nothing was given to ground me in it.

I really wish I could believe in a God, but I can't and won't just so I can deceive myself in believing something I really don't. this probably doesn't make much sense to you, but it does to me. I guess I'm a skeptic and science provides me with more answers than God.

I can appreciate all this. But I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

... I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

This is the crux of the issue. For those who are about making the other guy wrong, well such an agenda is on the table for all to see. And when our agenda is about honest questions and answers, that is clear as well.

sourdough

surferdude wrote:

I can appreciate all this. But I also appreciate that given what you have found to be true for yourself that you find no reason to try to belittle those who do believe.
Neither side has proof.

Honestly, I wish that God would disappear from everybody's consciousness and reliance. It would make the world a much simpler place I think, however that said, I have a lot of respect for the church. I cringe at the thought of what would happen if overnight the church would disappear. The church picks up the bulk of charitable drives, soup kitchens, and society needs the church right now if the gov't or atheists won't pick up the slack.

I think one thing that bugged me was that even if I were to accept Jesus as son of God, I think of him as vengeful like the God of the Old Testament, and I'm not cool with that. Although his message was love, and that he loved all of us, I can't imagine why he would still send us to eternal hell if we didn't believe even if we were good humans.

surferdude

sourdough wrote:

Honestly, I wish that God would disappear from everybody's consciousness and reliance. It would make the world a much simpler place I think, however that said, I have a lot of respect for the church. I cringe at the thought of what would happen if overnight the church would disappear. The church picks up the bulk of charitable drives, soup kitchens, and society needs the church right now if the gov't or atheists won't pick up the slack.

I think one thing that bugged me was that even if I were to accept Jesus as son of God, I think of him as vengeful like the God of the Old Testament, and I'm not cool with that. Although his message was love, and that he loved all of us, I can't imagine why he would still send us to eternal hell if we didn't believe even if we were good humans.

There is much I don't understand, and I have plenty of questions. Kinda a lot like my grasp of advanced physics. String theory or quantum physics, it's always such a tough choice as to which to believe in.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

God/consciousness/spirit is eternal. No beginning no end.

If that was the flaw in the train of thought, now what? The original argument stands?

The ID arguement is an attempt to make god a science, which god is not. In the scientific sense of ID the concept is flawed for the reason I stated.

It's pointless to debate god's existance, I simply said that it's not a scientifically sound proof of god.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

There is much I don't understand, and I have plenty of questions. Kinda a lot like my grasp of advanced physics. String theory or quantum physics, it's always such a tough choice as to which to believe in.

Awesome post.

fruth

miskin wrote:

athiests: u think ur brain power is a cause of nature? think to urselves on moment, one by one. is it possible that someone with ur complex thoughts and self awareness is just a mistake?

if you find a watch on an uninhabited island... you would say someone must have put it there. for a watch is too complex a mechanism to have just got there by chance. the watch must have had a designers, and a manufacturer, as its mechanisms are complex, and need to be exact for it to work.

think of yourself, and compare yourself with a watch. you must think you are very simple people

First off, I do believe in GOD.

Secondly, what kind of Christian are you when you start a flame thread on a message board attacking others beliefs? Degrading them by calling them small minded? Dont espouse some nonesense about Jesus wanting all Christians to spread the gospel, because I am almost positive he would not approve of you viscious flame thread. It's time to practice what you preach, or shut the fuck up.


Thirdly, what makes you think that man is such a superior being? Check your ego at the door, we are not that great.

Rhinocerous Surprise

surferdude wrote:

It's not at all like that. Your question is liking asking someone for proof that they have ever loved someone. Many truths are impossible to prove.

I was just bustin your chops a little...
I do respect anyone who believes in a god... And anyone who doesn't...
Well, not anyone on either side, obviously - what I'm trying to say (and failing miserably ) is that religious beliefs don't factor into my respecting anyone.

My main point on this thread was that I found my answer - I hit the point where I realised religion wasn't working for me, and went with that... You found that it works for you, and went with that... Both conclusions are cool with me...

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

The ID arguement is an attempt to make god a science, which god is not. In the scientific sense of ID the concept is flawed for the reason I stated.

It's pointless to debate god's existance, I simply said that it's not a scientifically sound proof of god.

Fair enough. So, within the context of science, it doesn't wash, yet.

It looks like your argument does not hold against what the original poster said, then, as the scientific slant was not being used. The original point still stands, then.

I think as science grows, it's pretty obvious that what once was thought of as "unnatural" or "supernatural" will become encompassed by the term "natural" and we'll understand things that now, we just cannot imagine.

norm

I could have given my opinion on the matter, but Todd Snider, one of the greatest living songwriters, wrote a song that explains my views on the subject.

Happy New Year
From The Devil You Know

happy new year everybody
happy birthday country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
theres an overweight man with an overweight woman on a sofa just watching tv
hes yelling his opinion at the television she looks up from her food and agrees
they got two bumper stickers on there pick up truck
they keep the pick up parked outside
one sticker says "what would jesus do?"
the other bumper sticker says "power of pride"
i was thumbing through the stations on my own television
when i came across a guy on the religous station
singing "somebodys coming" sounding whiter than me somehow
wow
it took me back in time thru dwindling joy
to when i was such a guilt ridden catholic boy
im evangelical agnostic now

i dont know what we're doing here
you don't "KNOW" what were doing here
now christians dont walk out on me just yet
you know whose name im yelling as im clutching my chest
the one my dad told me to and his told him to
and i probably pray as much or more than you do
believe? shit, every word i sing
but believing and knowing, those are two different things
and if your trying to change the way a strangers life will have to go
i believe this is where i wanna stick to what i know
which is nothing you know, nothing for sure so
just chill til the next episode
now back to the lecture at hand
seems like my neighbor wants to kill what he cant understand
i say we cant just kill what we dont understand
but i turn on my tv and see that oh yes we can
we can and we have since then dawn of man
for countless gods whose only real seeming plan
was to see to it that clinging to life was our fate
and you gotta admit that lifes pretty great
but
can we deny that its killing us?
ill be here all week
happy new year everybody
happy birthday country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
i aint hurtin you
if life is anything its embarrassing
a rusty nail thru a careless shoe
you cant help but sit around and wonder sometimes
why there's never anything the poor nail can do
or think about how unfair it is
that the shoe is only going where it has to too
if you aint the dumb kid out running around
you kinda gotta do what your born to do
hey

happy new year everybody
specifically happy birthday to you country joe
i resolve to do like i always do
and i only ever make it a day or two