Why Do Athiests

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

we believe mostly the same things. churches are filled with hypoctites and i stay away from them. i've never asked God for anything for myself. i know who i was in my past life and i accept the bad things that have happened to me as my punishment for what i did in that past life. i believe in Jesus and what he said. not what man says he said. i consider you more a person of religion than someone that winds God up on sunday and goes through the motions.

then you must feel the same about me, cos he pretty much outlined my beliefs as well. i pray every night.. fancy that. yet here i am, reaming the religious folks. why? becos i find their arrogance far more offensive than the insecurity of atheists.

crittables

soulsinging wrote:

why dont you kill yourself and be done with it then? you get to meet god faster.

i don't think you go to heaven if you kill yourself. i think i heard that somewhere once.

Cosmo

hippiemom wrote:

I don't have any anger at all towards anyone solely because they have religious beliefs, but I DO have some anger towards some very specific religious behaviors.

Believe what you like, but when you start trying to pass legislation, you're making your religion my business, and you're damn right I'm going to argue with you about it. When you try to tell my daughters what they can and can't do with their bodies, or my gay friends that they're not entitled to the same rights that I have, because your god tells you that what they want to do is a sin, you'd better be able to show that god to me and prove that he exists and that your beliefs are irrefutably the devine word of god. If you can't do that (and you can't), then you have no business making laws that people who don't believe in your god are bound to obey. If you want to clutter up public spaces that I'm helping to pay for with crucifixes or menorahs or giant concrete copies of the ten commandments, first you PROVE to me that this is all real ... if you can't, then please just go away. Put your stuff on your own property, leave what partially belongs to me alone. And don't even think about forcing kids in public school to pray to your god.

Those are the only religious people that make me truly angry. The ones who knock on my door or sit next to me on a bus annoy me a lot, but I can't say I get genuinely angry with them. If I'm in the right mood, I might even find them amusing.

Religious people who do their best to live according to their beliefs, don't attempt to force those beliefs on others, are respectful my beliefs or lack thereof, and proselytize only by example, are some of the finest people I know and I have no quarrel with them at all.

...
Thank you.
I didn't want to single out Christianity over other religions... but, living in America, it ain't easy to avoid.
Trying to get religious beliefs into law... I am totally against it. and NOT just Christian belief... if Judaism or Islam or Scientology tried to pass legislation to favor their religion over others, I would be equally against it. We can see examples of religion and politics as one... all we need to do is look at the Middle East. I don't want that crap over here.
So... don't 'lead me in your prayers' and don't inject your religion into my country. You're supposed to have a personal relationship with Jesus, right?

Abookamongstthemany

surferdude wrote:

Except everyone tries to pass legislation based on what they believe in. Why damn on group of people because they base their proposed legislation on religious doctrine rather than a philosophical stance? It's a form of hypocracy that gets us nowehre. Who cares where the idea for legislation comes from, just debate the merit of the legislation.

Usually philosophy has it's reasons and not just because god said so.

crittables

Cosmo wrote:

...
You're supposed to have a personal relationship with Jesus, right?

yup. eliminate the middle man.

soulsinging

Cosmo wrote:

The other thing i find sort of laughable and pathetic at the same time... Americans believing Jesus will come to save them. To me, that is kind of like Jesus originally out there to save the Romans, not the people of Judea. I mean, seriously... how many of us are suffering... I mean, REALLY suffering? If I'm hungry... i eat. I sleep indoors and do not have the threat of getting dragged out of my house and having my head chopped off with a machete.
IF... Jesus ever came to save me... I'd tell Him, "Not that I'm ungrateful or anything, bud... but, let them people in places like Darfur go ahead of me. They are suffering. But, be sure to come back and get me... it's just that there are a hell of a lot of poor saps worse off than me."
Why would Jesus care about overfed, comfortably warm middle and upper class people in the militarily strongest and economically wealthiest nation on the planet over those poor people who are lucky to eat a half a handful of rice a week? I would think that if He did... He really has His priorities screwed up.

becos they have the soul-crushing torment of potentially having to live next to a homosexual and never even know it!

surferdude

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Usually philosophy has it's reasons and not just because god said so.

But they are all faith based. They require a belief in something unprovebale. When you propose legislation i would hope it is because you believe it is the right thing to do. This "rightness" can only be based on an uproveable belief you hold.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

Except everyone tries to pass legislation based on what they believe in. Why damn on group of people because they base their proposed legislation on religious doctrine rather than a philosophical stance? It's a form of hypocracy that gets us nowehre. Who cares where the idea for legislation comes from, just debate the merit of the legislation.

Have I told you lately that I love you??

Abookamongstthemany

surferdude wrote:

But they are all faith based. They require a belief in something unprovebale.

No, philosophy is based on life experiences and morality. You can argue why something is wrong because you've see it's ill effects...you don't have to refer to the bible. If something is causing problems in society then you make laws but there has to be some sort of reason other than going against what your invisible god says.

soulsinging

surferdude wrote:

Except everyone tries to pass legislation based on what they believe in. Why damn on group of people because they base their proposed legislation on religious doctrine rather than a philosophical stance? It's a form of hypocracy that gets us nowehre. Who cares where the idea for legislation comes from, just debate the merit of the legislation.

becos most people base their beliefs on statistics and practical realities. religious people base them on a book written 2000 years ago. we used to chop off people's hands for theft then, stone women who got raped, enslave those of different colored skin, etc etc. so tell me how you can say thing havent changed in 2000 years and our society should be set up exactly as it was at the dawn of civilization when society was built around tiny, wandering nomadic tribes that have a vested and compelling interest in making sure everybody that could was making babies?

when the SOLE merit of your legislation is "the bible said so" your legislation fails on its merits. period. and those who legislate the bible never have any other merit to back their ideas up. that is what they piss me off. there is nothing reasonable or compassionate about them.

onelongsong

soulsinging wrote:

then you must feel the same about me, cos he pretty much outlined my beliefs as well. i pray every night.. fancy that. yet here i am, reaming the religious folks. why? becos i find their arrogance far more offensive than the insecurity of atheists.

i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.

Dog Loyal

onelongsong wrote:

i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.

How do you know Soulsinging is praying "for things"? He may be offering prayers of thanks, or simply trying to quiet his mind and open himself to god's will.

I respect Soulsingings prayers, and I'm an atheist.

surferdude

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

No, philosophy is based on life experiences and morality. You can argue why something is wrong because you've see it's ill effects...you don't have to refer to the bible. If something is causing problems in society then you make laws but there has to be some sort of reason other than going against what your invisible god says.

Please provide a scientifically proveable definition of morality. Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.

im not praying to win the lottery or anything. i pray in the morning for the ability to play the hand the best i can and every night in gratitude that i had the chance to play another round. that's it. but my point was, this is not just an atheist thing. i am definitely not an atheist (in fact, i find many of their contentions utterly ridiculous), but i am still angry and annoyed at religious people much of the time for the reasons outlined so well by dogloyal here:

Let's say you were perfectly content with your own life, and you told me who your wife was, and I said "ugh, I feel so sorry for you!" Then you told me where you went to college and I said "Oh dear, that's terrible, you poor thing." Then you told me where you worked and I wiped away a tear and said it made me heartsick. Then you told me where you lived and I said "Egads! Let me help you get the hell out of there!"

Would you think I was being compassionate and wonderful? Or would you want to tell me to STFU.

Then, when you said "STFU," I'd say, oh dearie me, why are religious people soooooooo angry?

and hippiemom in her discussion of religious legislation.

surferdude

soulsinging wrote:

becos most people base their beliefs on statistics.

And statistics completely forget about the individual. basing laws on this is legislating both of stereotyping and discrimination.

soulsinging

surferdude wrote:

And statistics completely forget about the individual. basing laws on this is legislating both of stereotyping and discrimination.

but it's a better, more grounded and realistic guide than a book that is 6-7 thousand years old. there has to be a balance. but nowhere in that balance is literature. would you think my proposal of a law saying it is ok to assassinate your own leaders had merit just becos i claim that's what bill shakespeare said and he was awesome? no more evidence than that and it has just as much merit as everyone else's stance that that might lead to some problems?

Abookamongstthemany

surferdude wrote:

Please provide a scientifically proveable definition of morality. Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?

Of course morality is based on opinions but the opinions I'm speaking of are ones based on life, experience, the world around us and the effects of our actions. There needs to be reason involved to force behavior onto others.

How would homosexuality be immoral?

Cosmo

surferdude wrote:

Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?

...
That would be fine... but, I would venture to say that for those in favor of outlawing homosexuality will ALWAYS... eventually point to the Bible as a reason.

Milestone

soulsinging wrote:

when the SOLE merit of your legislation is "the bible said so" your legislation fails on its merits. period. and those who legislate the bible never have any other merit to back their ideas up. that is what they piss me off. there is nothing reasonable or compassionate about them.

For example, when God told George W. Bush that stem cell research is bad?

surferdude

soulsinging wrote:

but it's a better, more grounded and realistic guide than a book that is 6-7 thousand years old. there has to be a balance. but nowhere in that balance is literature. would you think i had a pretty good point if i proposed a law saying it is ok to kill the president becos that's what bill shakespeare said?

No, but I wouldn't base my opposition to the idea based on your religion, philosophy or where the idea stemmed from. I'd try to stick to the merits of the legislation only.