then you must feel the same about me, cos he pretty much outlined my beliefs as well. i pray every night.. fancy that. yet here i am, reaming the religious folks. why? becos i find their arrogance far more offensive than the insecurity of atheists.
i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.
i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.
How do you know Soulsinging is praying "for things"? He may be offering prayers of thanks, or simply trying to quiet his mind and open himself to god's will.
I respect Soulsingings prayers, and I'm an atheist.
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
No, philosophy is based on life experiences and morality. You can argue why something is wrong because you've see it's ill effects...you don't have to refer to the bible. If something is causing problems in society then you make laws but there has to be some sort of reason other than going against what your invisible god says.
Please provide a scientifically proveable definition of morality. Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.
im not praying to win the lottery or anything. i pray in the morning for the ability to play the hand the best i can and every night in gratitude that i had the chance to play another round. that's it. but my point was, this is not just an atheist thing. i am definitely not an atheist (in fact, i find many of their contentions utterly ridiculous), but i am still angry and annoyed at religious people much of the time for the reasons outlined so well by dogloyal here:
Let's say you were perfectly content with your own life, and you told me who your wife was, and I said "ugh, I feel so sorry for you!" Then you told me where you went to college and I said "Oh dear, that's terrible, you poor thing." Then you told me where you worked and I wiped away a tear and said it made me heartsick. Then you told me where you lived and I said "Egads! Let me help you get the hell out of there!"
Would you think I was being compassionate and wonderful? Or would you want to tell me to STFU.
Then, when you said "STFU," I'd say, oh dearie me, why are religious people soooooooo angry?
and hippiemom in her discussion of religious legislation.
And statistics completely forget about the individual. basing laws on this is legislating both of stereotyping and discrimination.
but it's a better, more grounded and realistic guide than a book that is 6-7 thousand years old. there has to be a balance. but nowhere in that balance is literature. would you think my proposal of a law saying it is ok to assassinate your own leaders had merit just becos i claim that's what bill shakespeare said and he was awesome? no more evidence than that and it has just as much merit as everyone else's stance that that might lead to some problems?
Please provide a scientifically proveable definition of morality. Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?
Of course morality is based on opinions but the opinions I'm speaking of are ones based on life, experience, the world around us and the effects of our actions. There needs to be reason involved to force behavior onto others.
How would homosexuality be immoral?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?
...
That would be fine... but, I would venture to say that for those in favor of outlawing homosexuality will ALWAYS... eventually point to the Bible as a reason.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
when the SOLE merit of your legislation is "the bible said so" your legislation fails on its merits. period. and those who legislate the bible never have any other merit to back their ideas up. that is what they piss me off. there is nothing reasonable or compassionate about them.
For example, when God told George W. Bush that stem cell research is bad?
but it's a better, more grounded and realistic guide than a book that is 6-7 thousand years old. there has to be a balance. but nowhere in that balance is literature. would you think i had a pretty good point if i proposed a law saying it is ok to kill the president becos that's what bill shakespeare said?
No, but I wouldn't base my opposition to the idea based on your religion, philosophy or where the idea stemmed from. I'd try to stick to the merits of the legislation only.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
im not praying to win the lottery or anything. i pray in the morning for the ability to play the hand the best i can and every night in gratitude that i had the chance to play another round. that's it. but my point was, this is not just an atheist thing. i am definitely not an atheist (in fact, i find many of their contentions utterly ridiculous), but i am still angry and annoyed at religious people much of the time for the reasons outlined so well by dogloyal here:
and hippiemom in her discussion of religious legislation.
i understand. as far as religious legislation; all laws are based on the 619 commandments whether that was the first thought or not considered at all. the 619 laws for living as a peaceful people was written in the 619 commandments thousands of years ago.
Please provide a scientifically proveable definition of morality. Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Does this mean you back laws outlawing homosexuality based on this morality?
If someone wants to force someone to do something, or prevent them doing something, the burden is on them to show us why. I don't give a rat's ass who anyone has sex with, so I don't have to prove anything. I just want to leave you alone. If you (and I don't mean you personally here) want to prevent homosexuals from enjoying the same rights as heterosexuals, then you've got to show us why it's to our benefit ... to the benefit of EVERYONE, including those who don't believe in your god.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
No, but I wouldn't base my opposition to the idea based on your religion, philosophy or where the idea stemmed from. I'd try to stick to the merits of the legislation only.
it's not that easy in practice. when the people selling it are selling it as part of the religion, you have to tackle them both at the same time. if a pastor says "vote to ban gay marriage or you'll burn in hell" you can't stand up and say "well, let's look at the numbers." they're just not listening. you have to show them how ridiculous it is to base their vote entirely on such nonsense.
I wouldn't know. You're the one wanting laws based on morality though. Don't you know what you're asking for? Whose morality do we use? Many posters here want to rule out the morality of the majority of Americans (christians) for laws. So you seem to want to base legislation based on the morality of the minorty. Is this what you really want?
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
i understand. as far as religious legislation; all laws are based on the 619 commandments whether that was the first thought or not considered at all. the 619 laws for living as a peaceful people was written in the 619 commandments thousands of years ago.
hammurabi's code predates the bible. and the ideas for peaceful living existed long before the wandering jews orally passed them down, then later wrote them down, then later lost them, then later had them reinterpreted by jesus, then later had them re-written in light of jesus' teaching, then later were translated into english... you ever play the game telephone?
I wouldn't know. You're the one wanting laws based on morality though. Don't you know what you're asking for? Whose morality do we use? Many posters here want to rule out the morality of the majority of Americans (christians) for laws. So you seem to want to base legislation based on the morality of the minorty. Is this what you really want?
no, democracy is rule by majority with protections for the minority. you use the majority views to guide society, but you do not allow mob rule to take over and so you protect certain fundamental rights. the right to control your own sexual conduct, form your own family, and associate with whoever you please is fundamental. thus, no amount of moral majoritarianism makes it ok to outlaw homosexuality and gay marriage.
I wouldn't know. You're the one wanting laws based on morality though. Don't you know what you're asking for? Whose morality do we use? Many posters here want to rule out the morality of the majority of Americans (christians) for laws. So you seem to want to base legislation based on the morality of the minorty. Is this what you really want?
I want laws based on problems that affect us and our world through out life. There has to reasons why something is a problem other than the bible tells you so.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
no, democracy is rule by majority with protections for the minority. you use the majority views to guide society, but you do not allow mob rule to take over and so you protect certain fundamental rights. the right to control your own sexual conduct, form your own family, and associate with whoever you please is fundamental. thus, no amount of moral majoritarianism makes it ok to outlaw homosexuality and gay marriage.
I'd say the principal of seperation of church and state makes it very easy to outlaw gay marriage. Marriage is a religious construct. One of the few government documents you can have signed by a religious leader. But I'd also outlaw heterosexual marriage as well for the same reason.
Now to get to your first point. As long as legislation does not violate the Bill of Rights or the Constitution it should not matter where the idea for the law originates.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I want laws based on problems that affect us and our world through life. There has to reasons why something is a problem other than the bible tells you so.
ditto. and i do NOT see a problem with gay people getting married. when ohio passed the gay marriage ban a couple years ago it was called the "protection of marriage act" or something ridiculous like that. if gay people marrying effects straight marriages in some way, i would like to know what the hell kind of marriages these people have.
I wouldn't know. You're the one wanting laws based on morality though. Don't you know what you're asking for? Whose morality do we use? Many posters here want to rule out the morality of the majority of Americans (christians) for laws. So you seem to want to base legislation based on the morality of the minorty. Is this what you really want?
...
Example... laws phohibiting smoking in public buildings... nothing to do with morality. Laws keeping the Ten Commandments out of State/Government buildings... nothing to do with morality. Smoking is a health issue... the Ten Commandments thing is not. But, personally... I don't want my publicly funded buildings to get crowded with Ten Commandments, Minoras, Stupas, Islamic Ramadan thingies and Scientology Spaceships... just as i don't want to breathe in someone else's cancer smoke. Keep that fucking shit in your own buildings and have your congregations pay for it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'd say the principal of seperation of church and state makes it very easy to outlaw gay marriage. Marriage is a religious construct. One of the few government documents you can have signed by a religious leader. But I'd also outlaw heterosexual marriage as well for the same reason.
Now to get to your first point. As long as legislation does not violate the Bill of Rights or the Constitution it should not matter where the idea for the law originates.
...
Judges are religious leaders? How about the guy dressed as Elvis in Las Vegas?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Judges are religious leaders? How about the guy dressed as Elvis in Las Vegas?
Right. And you can have a marriage legally validated without a religious leader's signature, but you cannot have a marriage legally validated without GOVERNMENT documentation.
So if your local pastor marries you but you've not filed for a marriage license with the County Clerk's office, you're not legally married.
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
hammurabi's code predates the bible. and the ideas for peaceful living existed long before the wandering jews orally passed them down, then later wrote them down, then later lost them, then later had them reinterpreted by jesus, then later had them re-written in light of jesus' teaching, then later were translated into english... you ever play the game telephone?
I'd say the principal of seperation of church and state makes it very easy to outlaw gay marriage. Marriage is a religious construct. One of the few government documents you can have signed by a religious leader. But I'd also outlaw heterosexual marriage as well for the same reason.
Now to get to your first point. As long as legislation does not violate the Bill of Rights or the Constitution it should not matter where the idea for the law originates.
id agree with that. id rather see civil unions than marriage and have it simply be a domestic parntership.
anyway, that was my point. gay marriage bans violate the constitution and bill of rights.
that just becos the bible has 619 commandments for living does not mean we should base our entire society upon it/them. there are 1000 different books offering 1000 different ways to run society. the bible has no stranglehold on morality. and it's quite possible to have morality without the bible.
I'll read to whole thread later but a question now (my fault if its been asked)
Onelongsong. Know1. I feel sympathy for you for being religious. I feel it inhibits your view on life and how to live it. Lets say....its like going through a festival with a blindfold on.
I'll read to whole thread later but a question now (my fault if its been asked)
Onelongsong. Know1. I feel sympathy for you for being religious. I feel it inhibits your view on life and how to live it. Lets say....its like going through a festival with a blindfold on.
Now, that doesnt ruffle your feathers?
not in the slightest. it would be quite arrogant of me to think that everyone could find the same enlightenment i have. i'll say a prayer that your enlightenment comes quickly.
Comments
i don't pray every night because i don't believe we should "bother" God. people pray for things and completely miss the plot. every day you are delt a hand and you earn your way into heaven by the way you play that hand. that's my analogy.
I respect Soulsingings prayers, and I'm an atheist.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
im not praying to win the lottery or anything. i pray in the morning for the ability to play the hand the best i can and every night in gratitude that i had the chance to play another round. that's it. but my point was, this is not just an atheist thing. i am definitely not an atheist (in fact, i find many of their contentions utterly ridiculous), but i am still angry and annoyed at religious people much of the time for the reasons outlined so well by dogloyal here:
and hippiemom in her discussion of religious legislation.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
but it's a better, more grounded and realistic guide than a book that is 6-7 thousand years old. there has to be a balance. but nowhere in that balance is literature. would you think my proposal of a law saying it is ok to assassinate your own leaders had merit just becos i claim that's what bill shakespeare said and he was awesome? no more evidence than that and it has just as much merit as everyone else's stance that that might lead to some problems?
Of course morality is based on opinions but the opinions I'm speaking of are ones based on life, experience, the world around us and the effects of our actions. There needs to be reason involved to force behavior onto others.
How would homosexuality be immoral?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That would be fine... but, I would venture to say that for those in favor of outlawing homosexuality will ALWAYS... eventually point to the Bible as a reason.
Hail, Hail!!!
For example, when God told George W. Bush that stem cell research is bad?
7-6-2006 Las Vegas. 7-20-2006 Portland. 7-22-2006 Gorge. 9-21-2009 Seattle. 9-22-2009 Seattle. 9-26-2009 Ridgefield. 9-25-2011 Vancouver.
11-29-2013 Portland. 10-16-2014 Detroit. 8-8-2018 Seattle. 8-10-2018 Seattle. 8-13-2018 Missoula. 5-10-2024 Portland. 5-30-2024 Seattle.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
i understand. as far as religious legislation; all laws are based on the 619 commandments whether that was the first thought or not considered at all. the 619 laws for living as a peaceful people was written in the 619 commandments thousands of years ago.
it's not that easy in practice. when the people selling it are selling it as part of the religion, you have to tackle them both at the same time. if a pastor says "vote to ban gay marriage or you'll burn in hell" you can't stand up and say "well, let's look at the numbers." they're just not listening. you have to show them how ridiculous it is to base their vote entirely on such nonsense.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
hammurabi's code predates the bible. and the ideas for peaceful living existed long before the wandering jews orally passed them down, then later wrote them down, then later lost them, then later had them reinterpreted by jesus, then later had them re-written in light of jesus' teaching, then later were translated into english... you ever play the game telephone?
no, democracy is rule by majority with protections for the minority. you use the majority views to guide society, but you do not allow mob rule to take over and so you protect certain fundamental rights. the right to control your own sexual conduct, form your own family, and associate with whoever you please is fundamental. thus, no amount of moral majoritarianism makes it ok to outlaw homosexuality and gay marriage.
I want laws based on problems that affect us and our world through out life. There has to reasons why something is a problem other than the bible tells you so.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Now to get to your first point. As long as legislation does not violate the Bill of Rights or the Constitution it should not matter where the idea for the law originates.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
ditto. and i do NOT see a problem with gay people getting married. when ohio passed the gay marriage ban a couple years ago it was called the "protection of marriage act" or something ridiculous like that. if gay people marrying effects straight marriages in some way, i would like to know what the hell kind of marriages these people have.
Example... laws phohibiting smoking in public buildings... nothing to do with morality. Laws keeping the Ten Commandments out of State/Government buildings... nothing to do with morality. Smoking is a health issue... the Ten Commandments thing is not. But, personally... I don't want my publicly funded buildings to get crowded with Ten Commandments, Minoras, Stupas, Islamic Ramadan thingies and Scientology Spaceships... just as i don't want to breathe in someone else's cancer smoke. Keep that fucking shit in your own buildings and have your congregations pay for it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Judges are religious leaders? How about the guy dressed as Elvis in Las Vegas?
Hail, Hail!!!
So if your local pastor marries you but you've not filed for a marriage license with the County Clerk's office, you're not legally married.
i agree. statistics show that in general; blacks are lazy and more prone to criminal activity. so do we make laws based on those statistics?
i have no idea what you're talking about.
id agree with that. id rather see civil unions than marriage and have it simply be a domestic parntership.
anyway, that was my point. gay marriage bans violate the constitution and bill of rights.
that just becos the bible has 619 commandments for living does not mean we should base our entire society upon it/them. there are 1000 different books offering 1000 different ways to run society. the bible has no stranglehold on morality. and it's quite possible to have morality without the bible.
Onelongsong. Know1. I feel sympathy for you for being religious. I feel it inhibits your view on life and how to live it. Lets say....its like going through a festival with a blindfold on.
Now, that doesnt ruffle your feathers?
not in the slightest. it would be quite arrogant of me to think that everyone could find the same enlightenment i have. i'll say a prayer that your enlightenment comes quickly.