Why Do Athiests

onelongsong

hippiemom wrote:

I certainly never denied that there were many religious people who don't get themselves all worked up over gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research, etc. In fact, the last paragraph of my post was about those people.

For a law to be legitimate in a secular society, it must have a secular purpose. I still have yet to hear an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve the concept of sin. Leaving aside religious teachings, there is simply no reason not to permit any two people to marry one another. If someone who is not at all religious is opposed to it (I have never met such a person, but I'm sure one exists somewhere), I would tend to think that they've subconsciously absorbed the teachings of the dominant religions and failed to question them, because there simply is no other justification for gay marriage bans.

Issues such as abortion, birth control and stem-cell research revolve around the question of when life begins. The belief that life begins at conception cannot possibly be grounded in anything other than religion, because there is no scientific basis for it. A non-religious person can say that they believe that, but again, I've yet to hear them explain why. If it's just a feeling they have, that's not good enough ... we don't base laws on hunches. Religion and hunches and feelings are perfectly valid systems to use when making decisions in your own life, but we should set the bar a bit higher when it comes to trying to regulate the behavior of others who surely have hunches of their own.

I would also dispute that these issues are insignificant. If you are pregnant and don't want to be, or if someone you love is dying of a disease that might be cured by stem cells, they are very significant indeed.

the reasoning against gay marriage is that poligamy would also have to be accepted. whether you want to accept that answer or not doesn't change the fact that if we're changing the laws to accomodate 1 minority; then we must accomodate the other. my guess is that there's more mormans wanting to legitimize thier lifestyles than gays wanting to get married.

soulsinging

Jeanie wrote:

hehe! Well doesn't that sound like Utopia?
I'll look forward to it!!

So good luck with it ss. You'll be great!! And soon enough you will be all qualified and have fancy little letters after your name.

once that happens ill no doubt be even more arrogant than before... and ill make you all call me soulsinging, esquire

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

the reasoning against gay marriage is that poligamy would also have to be accepted. whether you want to accept that answer or not doesn't change the fact that if we're changing the laws to accomodate 1 minority; then we must accomodate the other. my guess is that there's more mormans wanting to legitimize thier lifestyles than gays wanting to get married.

your guess would be wrong.

but i think we should recognize polygamy. what adults consent to do with each other is their business by and large, especially when it comes to their families. most mormons, furthermore, claim that the polygamy thing is exaggerated and not integral to their faith.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

we afford them a voice, by we have a government of the majority with protections for the fundamental rights of the minority. the majority can dictate policy and the direction of the country, but not at the expense of the minority. this is why we cannot pass segregation laws, cannot restrict the job options of women, and cannot deny homosexuals the same right to have a legally recognized union. reproductive rights (im talking about who you sleep with, not getting into abortion), family rights, and association are all fundamental. thus, the majority can try to mold christian policy through peace and love, but cannot strip the rights of other members of society by saying "our beliefs dont allow you, so we will marginalize you."

.

The last time i checked, you can still legally get an abortion, and in the privacy of your own home fuck anyone you want to.
The point is people here have managed to justify their hatred of and anger towards the "religious" by playing the trump card of "forcing their beliefs on me". Thats total bullshit. Their beliefs have not been forced, voting ones belief system does not even begin to constitute an attempt to do so, and these two issues have opponets from the "religious" and "non-religious" alike.

Kann

^ exactly the point I was trying to make. You're still free to do what you please. Forcing religion on you would be forcing you to embrace christianism (or whatever religion), go to church wether you like it or not and pay a tax to church.
My neighbour believes arabs are animals and should be shot and he votes accordingly. My mother thinks Christ is the best thing to ever happen on the face of this planet and she votes accordingly. I think neither and vote accordingly.
It's all a matter of choice, and if your state/country strips you from abortion rights and/or gay marriages ask yourself who you voted in power more than "why the fuck is the church dictating my life".

onelongsong

soulsinging wrote:

your guess would be wrong.

but i think we should recognize polygamy. what adults consent to do with each other is their business by and large, especially when it comes to their families. most mormons, furthermore, claim that the polygamy thing is exaggerated and not integral to their faith.

and most pot smokers when asked; will deny they smoke pot. my point being that when you're doing something illegal; you don't talk about it. living a stones throw from the utah border gives me a closer look as to what's really going on.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

The last time i checked, you can still legally get an abortion, and in the privacy of your own home fuck anyone you want to.
The point is people here have managed to justify their hatred of and anger towards the "religious" by playing the trump card of "forcing their beliefs on me". Thats total bullshit. Their beliefs have not been forced, voting ones belief system does not even begin to constitute an attempt to do so, and these two issues have opponets from the "religious" and "non-religious" alike.

last i checked, in most places you cannot get married to your partner if you are gay.

you cannot deny that the majority and most vocal and outspoken opponents of gay marriage are religious. so the movement becomes associated with them. just like the environmental movements all too often gets associated with nuts like PETA. you guys brought us fred phelps and, like it or not, he's become the symbol of the movement. him and jerry "9-11 was god punishing us for accepting gays" jenkins. that's just the way the shit flies. im sorry.

but regardless of WHO is voting on gay marriage, it is improper. just as separate but equal was improper, and just as sex discrimination is improper. it's just your bad luck that most of the frustration with the movement gets directed at your religion. the frustration and anger is justified and the movement is unconstitutional. it's not our fault it's people of your religion who are making the biggest stink about it and thus dragging your religion through the mud. just like it's not your fault that PETA drags the entire environmental movement through the mud.

by all means, you are free to talk and discourage people from being gay or pursuing a gay marriage. shit, you can publish an article saying we should round them up and execute them all. but passing a law to bar them from the right to marry is unconstitutional... unless you get a constitutional amendment.

soulsinging

onelongsong wrote:

and most pot smokers when asked; will deny they smoke pot. my point being that when you're doing something illegal; you don't talk about it. living a stones throw from the utah border gives me a closer look as to what's really going on.

regardless, it should still be allowed and i think there are easily as many if not more gay people itching for a marriage as there are mormon men wanting a few more wives.

and when ive never know a pot smoker who denied it unless you were a cop or a job interviewer. by and large they dont care who knows unless they're trying to get laid by a puritan.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

it's just your bad luck that most of the frustration with the movement gets directed at your religion. the frustration and anger is justified and the movement is unconstitutional. it's not our fault it's people of your religion who are making the biggest stink about it and thus dragging your religion through the mud. just like it's not your fault that PETA drags the entire environmental movement through the mud.

.

It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?

norm

cornnifer wrote:

"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?

when the president of the untied states, a born again christian, is the behind a constitiutional amendment to ban gay marriages, i'm sorry, but what am i supposed to think?

cornnifer

cutback wrote:

when the president of the untied states, a born again christian, is the behind a constitiutional amendment to ban gay marriages, i'm sorry, but what am i supposed to think?

The president of the United States!? Are you kidding me?

hippiemom

cornnifer wrote:

It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!

onelongsong

hippiemom wrote:

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!

my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too. some people oppose it because they support tradition. others don't want the door opened to other abominations.

cornnifer

hippiemom wrote:

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if there had never been a bible, there would still be widespread opposition to gay marriage? I think THAT sounds nonsensical!

i AM telling you that. i'm telling you EXACTLY that.

Uncle Leo

onelongsong wrote:

my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too. some people oppose it because they support tradition. others don't want the door opened to other abominations.

"other abominations" acknowledges it as an abomination, like with eating shellfish, an oft-use biblical term.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

It isn't my bad luck. i'm not religious. Christianity is not my "religion" it is a faith that i hold. Next off, the anger isn't justified on these grounds because, one more time, IT ISN'T HAPPENING! No ones religious belief is being "forced" on anyone. It isn't really about my faith being dragged through the mud. Its kind of about ignorant fuckers making stereotypes, holding prejudices, and justifying them with bullshit. Get over it.
"Two guys can't get married and its all those damn Christian's fault..." Do you realize how ignorant that sounds? How nonsensical and ignorant?

when 95% of the people speaking out loudly and publicly against gay marriage are christian and say that the reason they are against it is becos it is forbidden by the bible, it is not nonsensical or ignorant at all. it is the epitome of a reasonable belief. i can honestly say i have never met anyone who was not christian but still opposed gay marriage. nor have i ever read about any staunch opposition to gay marriage by seculars, buddhists, or anyone else.

christianity is a religion. just becos you are different from many of them does not mean the many do not exist, nor does it make people irrational from basing their perception of christians on their many with whom they are familiar as opposed to the few like you who they probably have never met or heard of. just as many people think environmentalists are crazy becos of PETA, christianity gets a bad rep becos of fred phelps. what are you so pissed off about? this is how it works and always has.

hippiemom

onelongsong wrote:

my mum goes to catholic church daily yet supports gay marriage. she claims the others support it too.

I never said that all Christians oppose gay marriage, but that most of those who do oppose it are religious people, or people of faith, or whatever they want to call themselves.

onelongsong wrote:

some people oppose it because they support tradition.

And where did those traditions originate?

onelongsong wrote:

others don't want the door opened to other abominations.

Abominations?! Gay marriage is an abomination now? Hmmm, I wonder where anyone got that idea ......

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

when 95% of the people speaking out loudly and publicly against gay marriage are christian and say that the reason they are against it is becos it is forbidden by the bible, it is not nonsensical or ignorant at all. it is the epitome of a reasonable belief.

christianity is a religion. just becos you are different from many of them does not mean the many do not exist, nor does it make people irrational from basing their perception of christians on their many with whom they are familiar as opposed to the few like you who they probably have never met. just as many people think environmentalists are crazy becos of PETA, christianity gets a bad rep becos of fred phelps. what are you so pissed off about? this is how it works and always has.

95%? Really? Where did you finds this stat?
Fred Phelps? You really may be beyond help.

soulsinging

hippiemom wrote:

Abominations?! Gay marriage is an abomination now? Hmmm, I wonder where anyone got that idea ......

certainly not the bible! :rolleyes: NOBODY uses that to support their belief that gay marriage is wrong... it's purely an individual belief thing... seriously!

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

95%? Really? Where did you finds this stat?
Fred Phelps? You really may be beyond help.

it's an estimation from my experience speaking to people who oppose gay marriage, people who voted for th ohio ban, and every news article i've ever read that discussed the issue. i have yet to hear anything by anyone who opposed gay marriage for any reason other than religion.