No, no, no, that's not what I was saying. I should have clarified ... there is no evidence whatsoever that the prayers of others do anything at all for the person who is sick. I don't concern myself much with what others do, so if their prayers are helping them, they should by all means have at it. I don't care if others pray for me, if it makes them happy, but they should be clear that they're doing it for themselves and not for me. It's sort of like if someone were to give me a violin for my birthday ... ok, this is lovely, but you know I don't play the violin, so why are you giving this to me? It's just odd and a bit awkward when people tell me they're doing it. It puts me in the position of having to be either rude or insincere, which I quite dislike.
It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.
Here's the thing HM. Isn't there something to considering the source? What i mean is that if a person of faith says they are praying for you, shouldn't you be flattered by it knowing that it is something they believe in even if you don't share that belief? At least, not be offended by it? I'm not talking about praying for the salvation of your soul. i'm talking about praying for someone in times of hardship, despair or need. Praying that things go well in someones job interview, or that a long road trip is safe, or general health and happiness. Shit like that. Personally i would have no problem with a Wiccan lighting candles for me. i don't share that belief, but would consider it sincere coming from one who does and be flattered and thankful for it. i would be touched by it actually. Am i making sense?
i have prayed for you on more than one occasion, BTW, knowing you don't share my faith. It wasn't to make me feel good about myself. It has always been sincere. Please know that it is such and not be offended by it
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I'm agnostic and for the most part i don't care what people chose to believe in. my problem is when Christians take it upon themselves to tell me what i can and can not do. this is just but one real example of religious Jesus freaks sticking their noses into my business:
from the day i found out that my ex and myself were going to have a baby girl we picked out her name because a particular song came on the car radio as we were going through the baby-name book. okay so, it's a beautiful name and it's the only one that we could both agree on. however the meaning of her name is; a witch. (she's had her moments where she's lived up to it but that's besides the point ) actually it's a very old name and she was the Celtic goddess of the night sky....but then the Christians came along and the meaning got morphed into meaning a witch...because goddesses don't exist :rolleyes:
so now it's months later and 3 days after I have given birth by c-section to the cutest thing that has ever squirmed. she's preemie, she's tiny and she's down the hall in the NICU. I am in my hospital bed, in pain, on moraphine and my hormones are fucking bouncing all over the place. so into my hospital room come this husband and wife couple that i've never seen or met before. they introduced themselves as friends of my sister. the woman proceeeds to sit on my hospital bed and proceeds to tell me and my baby daddy that we have to change our daughter's name because if we don't change it we are damning our child. from there the conversation went like this
me: "WHAT?"
wacko woman: "you do KNOW what her name means don't you?"
me and the baby daddy: "yes, of course we know what it means"
wacko woman: "then you know you must change it to something more Christian"
me and the baby daddy: "uhhh, no we don't"
the baby daddy "look lady, Gladys or Gertrude might be great Christian names for all i know or care but it doesn't mean we're going to change our daughter's name to that"
wacko woman: "but by naming her ______ you're damning that child to HELL! you obviously don't love that baby!"
me: "who the fuck are you to come in here and tell me what I can and cannot name my child? it's none of your fucking business at all. you really need to get away from me....NOW"
as the baby daddy was ushering them out of the room the husband pipes up: "we're going to pray for that baby's soul. and we're going to pray for you two to see the error of your sinful ways"
me: "save it...we don't give a flying fuck!"
the baby daddy shut the door behind them and I said to him "dude, i think this moraphine is making me hallucinate. is that possible?"
then he started laughing. he said "no, you're definitely not hallucinating. unfortunately those people were really here and really said that bullshit"
I never set eyes on those people before or since. as for my little witch? she works 2 jobs and goes to school and is on a list to get into nursing school. i'm also sure that the prayers of a couple of strange wack jobs had nothing to do with it.
I'm agnostic and for the most part i don't care what people chose to believe in. my problem is when Christians take it upon themselves to tell me what i can and can not do. this is just but one real example of religious Jesus freaks sticking their noses into my business:
from the day i found out that my ex and myself were going to have a baby girl we picked out her name because a particular song came on the car radio as we were going through the baby-name book. okay so, it's a beautiful name and it's the only one that we could both agree on. however the meaning of her name is; a witch. (she's had her moments where she's lived up to it but that's besides the point ) actually it's a very old name and she was the Celtic goddess of the night sky....but then the Christians came along and the meaning got morphed into meaning a witch...because goddesses don't exist :rolleyes:
so now it's months later and 3 days after I have given birth by c-section to the cutest thing that has ever squirmed. she's preemie, she's tiny and she's down the hall in the NICU. I am in my hospital bed, in pain, on moraphine and my hormones are fucking bouncing all over the place. so into my hospital room come this husband and wife couple that i've never seen or met before. they introduced themselves as friends of my sister. the woman proceeeds to sit on my hospital bed and proceeds to tell me and my baby daddy that we have to change our daughter's name because if we don't change it we are damning our child. from there the conversation went like this
me: "WHAT?"
wacko woman: "you do KNOW what her name means don't you?"
me and the baby daddy: "yes, of course we know what it means"
wacko woman: "then you know you must change it to something more Christian"
me and the baby daddy: "uhhh, no we don't"
the baby daddy "look lady, Gladys or Gertrude might be great Christian names for all i know or care but it doesn't mean we're going to change our daughter's name to that"
wacko woman: "but by naming her ______ you're damning that child to HELL! you obviously don't love that baby!"
me: "who the fuck are you to come in here and tell me what I can and cannot name my child? it's none of your fucking business at all. you really need to get away from me....NOW"
as the baby daddy was ushering them out of the room the husband pipes up: "we're going to pray for that baby's soul. and we're going to pray for you two to see the error of your sinful ways"
me: "save it...we don't give a flying fuck!"
the baby daddy shut the door behind them and I said to him "dude, i think this moraphine is making me hallucinate. is that possible?"
then he started laughing. he said "no, you're definitely not hallucinating. unfortunately those people were really here and really said that bullshit"
I never set eyes on those people before or since. as for my little witch? she works 2 jobs and goes to school and is on a list to get into nursing school. i'm also sure that the prayers of a couple of strange wack jobs had nothing to do with it.
funny story. People like that kill me.
i am of Christian faith. i have three sons:
Langston, as in Hughes
Holden, as in Caufield
and Townshend, as in... well... Pete
Biblical names are cliche.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Here's the thing HM. Isn't there something to considering the source? What i mean is that if a person of faith says they are praying for you, shouldn't you be flattered by it knowing that it is something they believe in even if you don't share that belief? At least, not be offended by it? I'm not talking about praying for the salvation of your soul. i'm talking about praying for someone in times of hardship, despair or need. Praying that things go well in someones job interview, or that a long road trip is safe, or general health and happiness. Shit like that. Personally i would have no problem with a Wiccan lighting candles for me. i don't share that belief, but would consider it sincere coming from one who does and be flattered and thankful for it. i would be touched by it actually. Am i making sense?
i have prayed for you on more than one occasion, BTW, knowing you don't share my faith. It wasn't to make me feel good about myself. It has always been sincere. Please know that it is such and not be offended by it
I'm not offended by it, it's just awkward when someone is standing there telling me that they've included me in their prayer circle and they're obviously waiting for some sort of response from me ... my only choice is to be rude, which I'm not capable of doing, or to offer my insincere thanks, which I don't like having to do. It's not so much the praying that bothers me as the putting me on the spot. You telling me that you've prayed for me doesn't put me in an uncomfortable situation, since you're not standing here with an expectant look on your face, waiting for me to say something.
Also, it's easier to take from some people than others. It's the arrogance that ticks me off ... the "I'm praying for you whether you like it or not," or people that I know would go absolutely bonkers if anyone suggested taking them to some type of Wiccan or Muslim healing ceremony, yet they have no qualms whatsoever about calling me and trying to talk me into going to see a faith healer. I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. I know plenty of people like that in my day to day life too, but I know enough of the other kind that it's gotten on my nerves and given me a bit of a bad attitude towards the whole thing.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. quote]
Honestly, i'd probably still do it . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Honestly, i'd probably still do it . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
how is doing something someone has asked you not to do a compromise, irrelevant of whether they know or not?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. quote]
Honestly, i'd probably still do it . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
Which is exactly the sort of blind arrogance that gets fair up an honest athiests nose.
And you do do it for smug personal gratification, cos you believe that it makes you a better person. Well news flash bud, it makes you deceitful and patronising.
Which is exactly the sort of blind arrogance that gets fair up an honest athiests nose.
And you do do it for smug personal gratification, cos you believe that it makes you a better person. Well news flash bud, it makes you deceitful and patronising.
Deceitful and patronising?! i am not easily offended but i have to say i am right now. You know NOTHING about me or my motivations. i just got through saying i don't do it for personal gratification. i don't think it makes me a better person. i am in no way arrogant.
leave me alone.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Honestly, i'd probably still do it . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
I'm not going to tell you to stop, because it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but I do think you should re-think your policy in general.
I know a couple of Wiccans, and they have a very strict code of ethics regarding performing any type of spell or even doing a meditation on behalf of another person without getting their permission first. They believe that if a person denies them permission, they need to respect that person's path. They also believe in reincarnation and are concerned that, as an example, a person might need to die at a young age in this life to progress to their next level of development, and that they have no right to interfere with that process, regardless of how much they might want to. I don't share any of their beliefs, but this strikes me as a very respectful way to go about things, and while I'm not offended by prayers I can easily see why someone who believes as they do would consider them to be almost an assault.
I think it's pretty easy to say "I'll pray for you, unless you'd rather I didn't."
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
...
Okay... don't take this the wrong way, but... I gotta call 'Bullshit' on this one. If it were true... it would truely qualify as a miracle... and at LEAST, be newsworthy. There would be SOME written record available for public... if not, you are letting millions of people worldwide, die from cancer. It the cure for cancer is in the water from Lourdes... then, cancer victims need it.
I do voluenteer work with both the Avon Walk (Los Angeles/Beaches) and the Susan G. Komen Foundation and there are thousands of mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends and co-workers that suffer from and die from Breast Cancer in America alone. And I'm sure that 99.99999% of them get prayers from 99.9999999% of their friends and families... yet, they die. if ONE on them survived from prayer alone... not the chemo and mastectomies and other medical treatments... we would have heard from her.
Sorry.
that's a good point... if all that it takes is water from the lorudes shrine from onelongsong to cure cancer... what the fuck is he doing here? he should be out there healing people like jesus did!
No, no, no, that's not what I was saying. I should have clarified ... there is no evidence whatsoever that the prayers of others do anything at all for the person who is sick. I don't concern myself much with what others do, so if their prayers are helping them, they should by all means have at it. I don't care if others pray for me, if it makes them happy, but they should be clear that they're doing it for themselves and not for me. It's sort of like if someone were to give me a violin for my birthday ... ok, this is lovely, but you know I don't play the violin, so why are you giving this to me? It's just odd and a bit awkward when people tell me they're doing it. It puts me in the position of having to be either rude or insincere, which I quite dislike.
It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.
I understand what you are saying mom.
I figure it's all about the intention and the person. Oh! And the timing!
I've had people tell me to "trust in God" or that they are praying for me, which irritated me no end. But I came to realize that it was just a way for them to appear to be doing something and that as you say, was to make them feel better and had nothing to do with me at all. Truth be told those people have no real power in my life. And by avoiding them, I find I am much happier. People that truly love and care for me, who have good intentions will respect my views and act accordingly. One of my dearest friends brought me Angel cards last time I was in hospital. And told me an Angel was watching over me. I confess that at the time, for a split second, I could have cheerfully thrown them at her! Must have been the prednisolone!!!
But I recognized that she was simply telling me that she loved me and was worried about me, and was speaking using ideas and concepts that were familiar to her. However I would have be less accepting of a complete stranger or someone that I'm not close to swaning in and telling me to pray to Jesus, or to have faith in God. So yes, I think it's the individual, their intention and as always, timing!!
You should take some Wiccan candles in and give them to your boss for her next birthday. It would be very considerate of you. And thoughtful.
Sometimes the only way to get the message across is to fight fire with fire.
Sounds like she needs a little fire in her life!
similar cases were discussed in the american medical journal. i believe december 2005. doctors are prescribing patients to eat buffalo meat all over the country. researchers are trying to isolate the compound that destroys the cancer. thanks to the chemical companies; you cannot claim a cure until you can precisely measure dosage. that's the law. so until the compound is isolated; and an exact dosage can be established; millions will die from cancer. this is why natural products cannot be advertised and medicines.
here's a breast cancer study you may be interested in. sorry to those who've already seen it.
CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) is a cancer-fighting fat that is most abundant in grassfed products. Two new European studies link a diet high in CLA with a lower risk of breast cancer. In Finland, researchers measured CLA levels in the serum of women with and without breast cancer. Those women with the most CLA had a significantly lower risk of the disease. Meanwhile, French researchers measured CLA levels in the breast tissues of 360 women. Once again, the women with the most CLA had the lowest risk of cancer. In fact, the women with the most CLA had a staggering 74% lower risk of breast cancer than the women with the least CLA.
The most natural and effective way to increase your intake of CLA is to eat the meat and dairy products of grassfed animals.
A. Aro et al, Kuopio University, Finland; Bougnoux, P, Lavillonniere F, Riboli E. "Inverse relation between CLA in adipose breast tissue and risk of breast cancer. A case-control study in France." Inform 10;5:S43, 1999
what does any of this have to do with you giving someone water from the lourdes shrine?
i do soulsigning, i do. but i do it in church where it belongs. i'm not in no way involved with politics because it goes against my beliefs. i used to "preach" in church for a little and would speak about how as christians (btw, i never really used the word "christian" cause i'm against the word but i'm using it here so you can understand it) we should not interfere with public relations. i don't support bush or the republicans. i don't support any of it cause it's all very mundaine and "unchristian". those things are completely against the teachings of jesus. i don't believe in war. i don't believe in the death penalty. i don't believe in the right to bare arms. but i'm not gonna go and advocate my beliefs in politics. that's why you never hear me speaking about politics on these boards... mainly, religion cause it fascinates me. and also so i could learn.
but i can sympathize with your beliefs... you will never see me standing in front of the texas state capital (which is where i live) raising up signs that say, "God hates fags" but i will never march with homosexuals either cause those are contrary to my beliefs as well. i mean, thank god for mlk and all. he served of great purpose for our nation, but he never advocated his own beliefs in protest against the oppressions of his people. if he did, i bet he would've never been successful.
would that there were more followers of jesus like you... and im not being sarcastic there. i mean it. you're too rare.
Deceitful and patronising?! i am not easily offended but i have to say i am right now. You know NOTHING about me or my motivations. i just got through saying i don't do it for personal gratification. i don't think it makes me a better person. i am in no way arrogant.
leave me alone.
Hey, it's teh MOving Train, place to debate politics and religion. If you come here, ya gotta expect some heat. I know what you said, I'm just calling bullshit on it.
Doing something behind someones back is certainly deceitful.
Christians are always banging on about entry to heaven, so don't claim there is no secondary gain, or personal motivation to your piety. Again, it's that hippocrisy that pisses off athiests.
I have been patted on teh head and "blessed" by copmplete strangers withotu my premission, cos they assume they have teh right, but they don't, and it's offensive to me.
people of religion welcome death. the ultimate prize is to be with God. i'm only 51 yet i have a standing DNR order. i've done more than most people; now i want something better. you speak of death like it's something bad; to others; it's the best part of life.
right. water was only an example of how faith can heal.
the actual "cure" is something in buffalo meat. science says it's a compound and are trying to isolate it. i think it's the entire combination of everything available in buffalo meat. if and only if the buffalo are raised properly. the usda has a lot of information as well as the NIH.
but the faith did not heal. you just admitted yourself that it was the buffalo meat that did it.
and as i suspected, this all came down to a sales pitch, as most of religion does
Your "study" of one person isn't a study at all, it's an anecdote. Scientific studies of the sort that are published in peer-reviewed professional journals do indeed have controls, and study large groups over long periods.
While they are busy studying over long periods and having things published and reviewed by peers, I might just continue with my alternate therapy regimes as an adjunct to the medically prescribed regimes.
As the alternate is doing no harm, and could potentially be doing some good, not to mention they may discover other negative impacts from the prescribed medications further down the track, I have no problem with weighing up all the information and deciding if an alternative treatment is course of action that I believe will benefit me. Waiting for scientific peer review to catch up is not always a good thing.
i DO, and you know it damn well. That doesn't mean i am going to sit back and let non-christians make broad brushstroke generalizations about Christians and Christianity and not call THEM on it as well.
Furthermore, it is one thing for Christians such as MLK or myself to call Christians on some of their behavior. It is something altogether different for a non-Christian to point out shortcomings of Christians in an attempt to discredit their faith. i have no problems with other Christians pointing it out to me when i may be stumbling in my "Christian walk", i have a bit of a problem with non-Christians doing it and making prejudicial judgements of a faith they don't share and know very little about. Its different.
i am/was christian. it was those people who forced me to abandon my faith. i was sickened by the hypocrisy of it and the ignorant unwillingness to even acknowledge it. jesus was equally sickened, but he was a better man than i. so i found my own way to god. but that doesn't mean im going to keep my mouth shut about it. i was raised catholic... it sticks. a large part of me is still hoping one day they will all wake the fuck up and realize it's not 1300 ad anymore.
i am/was christian. it was those people who forced me to abandon my faith. i was sickened by the hypocrisy of it and the ignorant unwillingness to even acknowledge it. jesus was equally sickened, but he was a better man than i. so i found my own way to god. but that doesn't mean im going to keep my mouth shut about it. i was raised catholic... it sticks. a large part of me is still hoping one day they will all wake the fuck up and realize it's not 1300 ad anymore.
Ah young skywalker, you have much to learn. Us atheists are waiting for you to wake up.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
While they are busy studying over long periods and having things published and reviewed by peers, I might just continue with my alternate therapy regimes as an adjunct to the medically prescribed regimes.
As the alternate is doing no harm, and could potentially be doing some good, not to mention they may discover other negative impacts from the prescribed medications further down the track, I have no problem with weighing up all the information and deciding if an alternative treatment is course of action that I believe will benefit me. Waiting for scientific peer review to catch up is not always a good thing.
I hear dog food is really good at curing colds.
Also, and this isn't a lie. If you age your meat for like 6 weeks and then eat it, it will degenerate your cells and cancer will be unable to propagate and will eventually die, if you don't die first.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Also, and this isn't a lie. If you age your meat for like 6 weeks and then eat it, it will degenerate your cells and cancer will be unable to propagate and will eventually die, if you don't die first.
Got any more info on it Ahnimus?
Probably not something I would choose as a cure for the common cold, but there has been anecdotal evidence that Vitamin C is very good for warding off the common cold and as Vitamin C is also an antioxidant, and what is not absorbed into the blood stream is flushed out in the urine, I see no reason why incorporating a daily dose into my diet would do harm.
And as I have a compromised immune system, then I'll do whatever I deem appropriate to help myself. Same as everyone else.
While they are busy studying over long periods and having things published and reviewed by peers, I might just continue with my alternate therapy regimes as an adjunct to the medically prescribed regimes.
As the alternate is doing no harm, and could potentially be doing some good, not to mention they may discover other negative impacts from the prescribed medications further down the track, I have no problem with weighing up all the information and deciding if an alternative treatment is course of action that I believe will benefit me. Waiting for scientific peer review to catch up is not always a good thing.
I agree pretty much completely, in cases where an alternative treatment is genuinely doing no harm. My problem is with people who claim to be able to cure cancer ... that's a claim no oncologist would ever make, and no one else should be making it either. My doctor told me of a patient of hers who spent all of her money going to see some guy in NYC who assured her that he could cure her. He didn't, and now her elderly husband is alone and penniless. He probably would have been alone anyway, her cancer was very advanced, but he didn't have to be broke. Every oncologist knows dozens of stories like this ... for every "miracle," there are dozens of dead people with bankrupt families.
So sure, if you're following a particular diet plan, or taking some relatively low-cost nutritional supplements, or something along those lines, that's great. But there are a LOT of charlatans out there preying on desperate people, and anyone who claims to have a "cure" for cancer is a charlatan unless they can prove it. If they're honestly saying "I think this may be of some benefit to you," that's one thing, but a lot of them are telling people they have a cure, and they don't, no one does. People who are dying are often desperate to believe these claims, and oftentimes their illness muddles their thinking. Those who prey on them are the lowest of the low.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
atheists are no better off than catholics. they're both claiming absolute certain knowledge of the unknowable.
i don't claim knowledge of the unknowable. what i claim is an absolute disbelief as it pertains to me. i can not bring myself to put my faith in something as nonsensical as a God.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i don't claim knowledge of the unknowable. what i claim is an absolute disbelief as it pertains to me. i can not bring myself to put my faith in something as nonsensical as a God.
maybe im muddling the distinction between agnostic, atheist, and anti-theist. there is a difference between refusing to put your faith in a god you see no evidence for and between stating as fact that there is no god and there is no possibility that such an entity could ever exist.
I agree pretty much completely, in cases where an alternative treatment is genuinely doing no harm. My problem is with people who claim to be able to cure cancer ... that's a claim no oncologist would ever make, and no one else should be making it either. My doctor told me of a patient of hers who spent all of her money going to see some guy in NYC who assured her that he could cure her. He didn't, and now her elderly husband is alone and penniless. He probably would have been alone anyway, her cancer was very advanced, but he didn't have to be broke. Every oncologist knows dozens of stories like this ... for every "miracle," there are dozens of dead people with bankrupt families.
So sure, if you're following a particular diet plan, or taking some relatively low-cost nutritional supplements, or something along those lines, that's great. But there are a LOT of charlatans out there preying on desperate people, and anyone who claims to have a "cure" for cancer is a charlatan unless they can prove it. If they're honestly saying "I think this may be of some benefit to you," that's one thing, but a lot of them are telling people they have a cure, and they don't, no one does. People who are dying are often desperate to believe these claims, and oftentimes their illness muddles their thinking. Those who prey on them are the lowest of the low.
Actually, trying alternative therapies is part of the bargaining stage of teh grieving process. It occurs in all illness, not just cancer, and I re-iterate my point that these charlatans are parasites preying on desperation.
My father-in-law bankrupted himself trying sanke venom therapy when his second wife was dying of breat cancer. NOw the children are poor and he struggle to provide for some years after her death. The parasite, no doubt is doing just fine !!
maybe im muddling the distinction between agnostic, atheist, and anti-theist. there is a difference between refusing to put your faith in a god you see no evidence for and between stating as fact that there is no god and there is no possibility that such an entity could ever exist.
well conor anything's possible, but.....
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
Here's the thing HM. Isn't there something to considering the source? What i mean is that if a person of faith says they are praying for you, shouldn't you be flattered by it knowing that it is something they believe in even if you don't share that belief? At least, not be offended by it? I'm not talking about praying for the salvation of your soul. i'm talking about praying for someone in times of hardship, despair or need. Praying that things go well in someones job interview, or that a long road trip is safe, or general health and happiness. Shit like that. Personally i would have no problem with a Wiccan lighting candles for me. i don't share that belief, but would consider it sincere coming from one who does and be flattered and thankful for it. i would be touched by it actually. Am i making sense?
i have prayed for you on more than one occasion, BTW, knowing you don't share my faith. It wasn't to make me feel good about myself. It has always been sincere. Please know that it is such and not be offended by it
from the day i found out that my ex and myself were going to have a baby girl we picked out her name because a particular song came on the car radio as we were going through the baby-name book. okay so, it's a beautiful name and it's the only one that we could both agree on. however the meaning of her name is; a witch. (she's had her moments where she's lived up to it but that's besides the point
so now it's months later and 3 days after I have given birth by c-section to the cutest thing that has ever squirmed. she's preemie, she's tiny and she's down the hall in the NICU. I am in my hospital bed, in pain, on moraphine and my hormones are fucking bouncing all over the place. so into my hospital room come this husband and wife couple that i've never seen or met before. they introduced themselves as friends of my sister. the woman proceeeds to sit on my hospital bed and proceeds to tell me and my baby daddy that we have to change our daughter's name because if we don't change it we are damning our child. from there the conversation went like this
me: "WHAT?"
wacko woman: "you do KNOW what her name means don't you?"
me and the baby daddy: "yes, of course we know what it means"
wacko woman: "then you know you must change it to something more Christian"
me and the baby daddy: "uhhh, no we don't"
the baby daddy "look lady, Gladys or Gertrude might be great Christian names for all i know or care but it doesn't mean we're going to change our daughter's name to that"
wacko woman: "but by naming her ______ you're damning that child to HELL! you obviously don't love that baby!"
me: "who the fuck are you to come in here and tell me what I can and cannot name my child? it's none of your fucking business at all. you really need to get away from me....NOW"
as the baby daddy was ushering them out of the room the husband pipes up: "we're going to pray for that baby's soul. and we're going to pray for you two to see the error of your sinful ways"
me: "save it...we don't give a flying fuck!"
the baby daddy shut the door behind them and I said to him "dude, i think this moraphine is making me hallucinate. is that possible?"
then he started laughing. he said "no, you're definitely not hallucinating. unfortunately those people were really here and really said that bullshit"
I never set eyes on those people before or since. as for my little witch? she works 2 jobs and goes to school and is on a list to get into nursing school.
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
i am of Christian faith. i have three sons:
Langston, as in Hughes
Holden, as in Caufield
and Townshend, as in... well... Pete
Biblical names are cliche.
Also, it's easier to take from some people than others. It's the arrogance that ticks me off ... the "I'm praying for you whether you like it or not," or people that I know would go absolutely bonkers if anyone suggested taking them to some type of Wiccan or Muslim healing ceremony, yet they have no qualms whatsoever about calling me and trying to talk me into going to see a faith healer. I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. I know plenty of people like that in my day to day life too, but I know enough of the other kind that it's gotten on my nerves and given me a bit of a bad attitude towards the whole thing.
how is doing something someone has asked you not to do a compromise, irrelevant of whether they know or not?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Which is exactly the sort of blind arrogance that gets fair up an honest athiests nose.
And you do do it for smug personal gratification, cos you believe that it makes you a better person. Well news flash bud, it makes you deceitful and patronising.
Deceitful and patronising?! i am not easily offended but i have to say i am right now. You know NOTHING about me or my motivations. i just got through saying i don't do it for personal gratification. i don't think it makes me a better person. i am in no way arrogant.
leave me alone.
I know a couple of Wiccans, and they have a very strict code of ethics regarding performing any type of spell or even doing a meditation on behalf of another person without getting their permission first. They believe that if a person denies them permission, they need to respect that person's path. They also believe in reincarnation and are concerned that, as an example, a person might need to die at a young age in this life to progress to their next level of development, and that they have no right to interfere with that process, regardless of how much they might want to. I don't share any of their beliefs, but this strikes me as a very respectful way to go about things, and while I'm not offended by prayers I can easily see why someone who believes as they do would consider them to be almost an assault.
I think it's pretty easy to say "I'll pray for you, unless you'd rather I didn't."
that's a good point... if all that it takes is water from the lorudes shrine from onelongsong to cure cancer... what the fuck is he doing here? he should be out there healing people like jesus did!
I figure it's all about the intention and the person. Oh! And the timing!
I've had people tell me to "trust in God" or that they are praying for me, which irritated me no end. But I came to realize that it was just a way for them to appear to be doing something and that as you say, was to make them feel better and had nothing to do with me at all. Truth be told those people have no real power in my life. And by avoiding them, I find I am much happier. People that truly love and care for me, who have good intentions will respect my views and act accordingly. One of my dearest friends brought me Angel cards last time I was in hospital. And told me an Angel was watching over me. I confess that at the time, for a split second, I could have cheerfully thrown them at her! Must have been the prednisolone!!!
But I recognized that she was simply telling me that she loved me and was worried about me, and was speaking using ideas and concepts that were familiar to her. However I would have be less accepting of a complete stranger or someone that I'm not close to swaning in and telling me to pray to Jesus, or to have faith in God. So yes, I think it's the individual, their intention and as always, timing!!
You should take some Wiccan candles in and give them to your boss for her next birthday.
Sometimes the only way to get the message across is to fight fire with fire.
Sounds like she needs a little fire in her life!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
what does any of this have to do with you giving someone water from the lourdes shrine?
would that there were more followers of jesus like you... and im not being sarcastic there. i mean it. you're too rare.
Hey, it's teh MOving Train, place to debate politics and religion. If you come here, ya gotta expect some heat. I know what you said, I'm just calling bullshit on it.
Doing something behind someones back is certainly deceitful.
Christians are always banging on about entry to heaven, so don't claim there is no secondary gain, or personal motivation to your piety. Again, it's that hippocrisy that pisses off athiests.
I have been patted on teh head and "blessed" by copmplete strangers withotu my premission, cos they assume they have teh right, but they don't, and it's offensive to me.
id be happy to help you out with that...
but the faith did not heal. you just admitted yourself that it was the buffalo meat that did it.
and as i suspected, this all came down to a sales pitch, as most of religion does
While they are busy studying over long periods and having things published and reviewed by peers, I might just continue with my alternate therapy regimes as an adjunct to the medically prescribed regimes.
As the alternate is doing no harm, and could potentially be doing some good, not to mention they may discover other negative impacts from the prescribed medications further down the track, I have no problem with weighing up all the information and deciding if an alternative treatment is course of action that I believe will benefit me. Waiting for scientific peer review to catch up is not always a good thing.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
i am/was christian. it was those people who forced me to abandon my faith. i was sickened by the hypocrisy of it and the ignorant unwillingness to even acknowledge it. jesus was equally sickened, but he was a better man than i. so i found my own way to god. but that doesn't mean im going to keep my mouth shut about it. i was raised catholic... it sticks. a large part of me is still hoping one day they will all wake the fuck up and realize it's not 1300 ad anymore.
Ah young skywalker, you have much to learn. Us atheists are waiting for you to wake up.
I hear dog food is really good at curing colds.
Also, and this isn't a lie. If you age your meat for like 6 weeks and then eat it, it will degenerate your cells and cancer will be unable to propagate and will eventually die, if you don't die first.
atheists are no better off than catholics. they're both claiming absolute certain knowledge of the unknowable.
:rolleyes: Now ss! That was just plain nasty! And I suspect a fib anyway!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Got any more info on it Ahnimus?
Probably not something I would choose as a cure for the common cold, but there has been anecdotal evidence that Vitamin C is very good for warding off the common cold and as Vitamin C is also an antioxidant, and what is not absorbed into the blood stream is flushed out in the urine, I see no reason why incorporating a daily dose into my diet would do harm.
And as I have a compromised immune system, then I'll do whatever I deem appropriate to help myself. Same as everyone else.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
So sure, if you're following a particular diet plan, or taking some relatively low-cost nutritional supplements, or something along those lines, that's great. But there are a LOT of charlatans out there preying on desperate people, and anyone who claims to have a "cure" for cancer is a charlatan unless they can prove it. If they're honestly saying "I think this may be of some benefit to you," that's one thing, but a lot of them are telling people they have a cure, and they don't, no one does. People who are dying are often desperate to believe these claims, and oftentimes their illness muddles their thinking. Those who prey on them are the lowest of the low.
i don't claim knowledge of the unknowable. what i claim is an absolute disbelief as it pertains to me. i can not bring myself to put my faith in something as nonsensical as a God.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
maybe im muddling the distinction between agnostic, atheist, and anti-theist. there is a difference between refusing to put your faith in a god you see no evidence for and between stating as fact that there is no god and there is no possibility that such an entity could ever exist.
nasty? im just offering to help out a friend. im offering my secular compassion to someone who cannot wait to be reunited with their god.
but no fib. in this odd sense, i very much agree with ols. i dont see the big deal with death. i never have.
Actually, trying alternative therapies is part of the bargaining stage of teh grieving process. It occurs in all illness, not just cancer, and I re-iterate my point that these charlatans are parasites preying on desperation.
My father-in-law bankrupted himself trying sanke venom therapy when his second wife was dying of breat cancer. NOw the children are poor and he struggle to provide for some years after her death. The parasite, no doubt is doing just fine !!
well conor anything's possible, but.....
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say