Why Do Athiests

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

It has the same affect on the brain.

In a physiological sense?

Meditation also affects blood flow, breathing and heart rate, as well as has overall health benefits.

These things do not seem to be symptomatic of prayer.

gue_barium

Jeanie wrote:

In a physiological sense?

Meditation also affects blood flow, breathing and heart rate, as well as has overall health benefits.

These things do not seem to be symptomatic of prayer.

You're killing me.

Jeanie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

why not? prayer is like focusing on something.... like God. just like meditating... you focus on something and it can also be God.

but if you mean prayer like, "oh, God, I pray that you get me out of this one." then that's the same thing as you mention, "I hope."

but prayer as in the kind that makes you cry, pout, boohoo and weep and do all sorts of things... that's meditating. i probably sound like an idiot to you.

Well, I'm not sure about this dnb.

My understanding is that prayer is the focus on making a connection with God whereas the practice of meditation in it's most basic form is to empty the mind of all thought and relax the body. I think that prayer can be meditative and meditation can definately be about prayer, but I do believe although similar, they are actually different. Well just my take on it anyway.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not making fun of them. I'm just stating what experiments have shown. I'm not talking about light prayers by a moderate religious person. I'm talking about lengthy prayers of a deeply religious person. Or how a moderately religious person might feel at a particular gathering with other deeply religious people.

I don't make fun of people by stating what I know.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1847442.stm

Didn't this same doctor also do experiments on people who had not been regular meditators? Where are the results of that study?

I find it interesting that the people used in this study had already prescribed to a religious doctrine, either as the reason to meditate or to pray.

How about people that have no religious affiliations that meditate?

Jeanie

gue_barium wrote:

You're killing me.

I am? Sorry. Not trying to.

I'm just trying to understand how me meditating is the same as me praying.

Because I'm not seeing the link personally.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

I am? Sorry. Not trying to.

I'm just trying to understand how me meditating is the same as me praying.

Because I'm not seeing the link personally.

Personally. I think you are being irrational.

I made a clear and concise statement and provided the source of my claims. If you want to prove Newberg wrong, then all the power to you, I'd like to see that.

Strassman says that every night when we sleep our pineal gland produces dimethyltryptamine in our brains causing us to tryp out, i.e. dream.

I don't know what these people are doing wrong besides challenging your beliefs with observable evidence. Although typically they are taken to mean that spirituality is significant in some supernatural way.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Personally. I think you are being irrational.

I made a clear and concise statement and provided the source of my claims. If you want to prove Newberg wrong, then all the power to you, I'd like to see that.

Strassman says that every night when we sleep our pineal gland produces dimethyltryptamine in our brains causing us to tryp out, i.e. dream.

I don't know what these people are doing wrong besides challenging your beliefs with observable evidence. Although typically they are taken to mean that spirituality is significant in some supernatural way.

Oh my god! Are you incapable of answering a valid question without putting your own twisted perspective on it?

I'm not refuting Newberg, I simply asked the question didn't he also do studies and experiments on people meditating who had no previous experience meditating and that also had no religious affiliation?
I thought that was the case and wondered why you didn't post a link with that information.

They aren't challenging my beliefs. I'm simply questioning why it is that the people in the experiment have already indicated they have religious preferences. And wondering what the outcome would be if this was not the case. Simple. Don't go reading anything into it. Just take it at face value.

And knock it off with the demeaning my mental abilities thanks.
It doesn't make you any more appealing.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Oh my god! Are you incapable of answering a valid question without putting your own twisted perspective on it?

I'm not refuting Newberg, I simply asked the question didn't he also do studies and experiments on people meditating who had no previous experience meditating and that also had no religious affiliation?
I thought that was the case and wondered why you didn't post a link with that information.

They aren't challenging my beliefs. I'm simply questioning why it is that the people in the experiment have already indicated they have religious preferences. And wondering what the outcome would be if this was not the case. Simple. Don't go reading anything into it. Just take it at face value.

And knock it off with the demeaning my mental abilities thanks.
It doesn't make you any more appealing.

I wasn't demeaning your mental abilities, I was speculating on your brain state.

I don't know about the experiments you mention, if you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it. I've wondered if Michael Persinger's experiments were ever tested on people besides Christians, but I can only think to e-mail him about that.

Anyway, I think I am taking it at face value.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I wasn't demeaning your mental abilities, I was speculating on your brain state.

I don't know about the experiments you mention, if you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it. I've wondered if Michael Persinger's experiments were ever tested on people besides Christians, but I can only think to e-mail him about that.

Anyway, I think I am taking it at face value.

Isn't this the guy that was working with Newberg?
Or am I confusing him?
Not much of an article I agree, but there are others I'm sure. Will just take some time to trawl through and find them.

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030424-000003.html

Jeanie

Here's a wiki, coz you seem to like it so much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn

Jeanie

And here's some more on the same guy.


http://www.umassmed.edu/behavmed/faculty/kabat-zinn.cfm

Scubascott

Ahnimus wrote:

If Homosexuality is a sin, why did god make gay penguins?

Ha ha ha! Awesome!

Jeanie

Here's something about hypertension and the benefits of meditation.

http://media.www.dailytrojan.com/media/storage/paper679/news/2004/04/05/News/Meditation.Inspires.Health.Benefits-650823.shtml

Ahnimus

Yea, I watched a 2 hour lecture given at a university on TM.

But how is this different than prayer Jeanie?

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, I watched a 2 hour lecture given at a university on TM.

But how is this different than prayer Jeanie?

Well the intention for starters. :rolleyes: You aren't being silly are you? I would have thought it was fairly obvious, in that if your intention is to meditate and not to commune with god or a higher power then your meditation would be different to someone praying.


It's not easy to find studies on meditation that aren't colored by religion but more and more doctors are encouraging patients to use meditation for its health benefits as well as an alternative to medication, particularly anaesthetic. This also applies to self hypnosis.

So where is the link to the lecture please?

chopitdown

Scubascott wrote:

Ha ha ha! Awesome!

For that argument to hold water, God would have had to create the original penguins as gay; if those penguins weren't gay, couldn't it be genetic mutation subsequent to sin and imperfection entering the world?

Kann

I don't understand the gay issue.
Religious powers/establishement is stupid to say "god hate fags", "gays will go to hell if they don't repent" etc.
But the opposing side is just as stupid. You can't expect a christian church to just say that they were wrong, being gay is ok, as is having extramarital relationships and any other issue. Christian religions values mariage and the gift of life. I dislike the church's position on such subjects but I'd despise the church if they acted like hypocrites toward their beliefs to suit the feelings of a population.
We, normally, all live in a democratic place where we are allowed to practise the lifestyle we wish. The churches are present to give recommendation to their followers. You don't like what they say? Don't follow what they say. As citizens your only duties are to follow the laws of your republic.

even flow?

onelongsong wrote:

i'm glad you brought that up. why would an athiest participate in a debate about religion? i'm not talking about a debate where the question of whether God exists or not; just a general religious thread. in my years here; i've seen many good religious threads bombarded with athiests changing the original question and making it a debate whether God exists or not. why can't athiests respect others to talk about a subject matter even though they do not believe in the subject matter? in other words; why can't they let people of religion discuss a subject they choose to discuss? it gives the impression that athiests are rude and disrespectful which leads one to believe that thier ignorant behavior is because they don't believe in God. if they don't want to hear people go on about God; don't open a religious thread.

Cause everybody has their two cents they want to ante to the pot. My two cents.

Plus some people as myself who were raised catholic and went to the schools and were taught all the stories, decided that there is a problem with the stories, the world and the way the two mesh. Thus they have the best of both worlds.

Jeanie

Kann wrote:

I don't understand the gay issue.
Religious powers/establishement is stupid to say "god hate fags", "gays will go to hell if they don't repent" etc.
But the opposing side is just as stupid. You can't expect a christian church to just say that they were wrong, being gay is ok, as is having extramarital relationships and any other issue. Christian religions values mariage and the gift of life. I dislike the church's position on such subjects but I'd despise the church if they acted like hypocrites toward their beliefs to suit the feelings of a population.
We, normally, all live in a democratic place where we are allowed to practise the lifestyle we wish. The churches are present to give recommendation to their followers. You don't like what they say? Don't follow what they say. As citizens your only duties are to follow the laws of your republic.

I have no problem with that except that religious organizations lobby for the law to be enacted as they deem appropriate. The state should act for all its citizens regardless of their color, creed, sexual persuasion, religious beliefs, abilities and disabilities etc. Unfortunately because of churches lobbying not all people are treated equally in the eyes of the state. Church influences state. That is wrong. Church and state should be separate. I also believe corporation and state should be separate.

cornnifer

Milestone wrote:

I can't speak for all. But, 2 things bug me.

1) More often than not....the child molester or marraige cheater is a "religious person".

2) More often than not.... it's the religious people that are pro-war.




.

Where do you get this shit?!