i thought miracles were due to unexplained "phenomena".
yes he wants answers but what i meant was he was asking, "why did those miners that were constantly prayed for hoping they would make it alive end up dying?"
people of religion welcome death. the ultimate prize is to be with God. i'm only 51 yet i have a standing DNR order. i've done more than most people; now i want something better. you speak of death like it's something bad; to others; it's the best part of life.
...
Dying of poisonous gasses in the darkness of a fricken' coal mine... yeah, that's bad. So, is dying a long and protracted... painful death from cancer... yeah, I classify it as bad, too.
We all want a peaceful death, religious or not... where we go to bed one night, after a long and rewarding lifetime, and simply do not wake up. But, that ain't always the way it goes down. People die horrible deaths... like slipping into a wood chipper, tumbling down a flight of stairs, mangled up in a crushed automobile, heart attacks while sitting on the can with your pants around your ankles, drawing your last breaths in the filthy gutter after being struck by a car... no one want to die this way. And what about the 7 year old girl that is killed after being raped by some pedophile psycho... is her death greater than her survival? Religious people welcome that? No. They welcome the going to sleep and not waking up. If you accept death so easily, you accept all the manners in which we die... not just the one way we want to go out of this place.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
everyone wants answers. why do you think we're doing so much research?
You have proclaimed the answer... water from Lourdes and parayer cures cancer.
I'm asking, Why don't all cancer victims flock to Lourdes? and does every one that take the water get cured? If not, why not? Are they not worthy of living?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
How do you know how I would think if I was ill? Based on your own personal experiences. That's the same old song Jeanie. It means sweet fuck all to me.
I don't know what you would think if you were ill. And I wasn't trying to tell you that I would know. :rolleyes: You do seem to have a reading comprehension problem with my posts. Or perhaps it's just that you doubt my intentions.
Whatever, I was simply pointing out that when people are ill they usually have far too much on their mind to be worrying about what those around them are thinking or feeling. And even when they do have an understanding, usually have far too much thinking of their own to be trying to police the thoughts and feelings of others.
You have proclaimed the answer... water from Lourdes and parayer cures cancer.
I'm asking, Why don't all cancer victims flock to Lourdes? and does every one that take the water get cured? If not, why not? Are they not worthy of living?
hi jeanie,
i know i'm not cosmo but i feel the need to answer this question anyway. you know how i get girl.
i have friends and family who are religious, or who think they are anyway. they know that i am an atheist. what i would like from them is respect enough that they know how i would feel if i were aware they were praying for me. they know it would not be helping me. therefore i would assume, rightly or wrongly, that they would desist in 'wasting' their prayer on someone who believes they don't need saving nor the 'power' of prayer.
And that's completely fair enough cate.
I have had people pray for me that I would prefer didn't. But then I realized I would mostly prefered that they just buggered off and left me alone anyway. It wasn't the praying I objected to it was them. Least that's what I realized.
Now if someone I love, and care for, who cares for me, feels the need to pray when I am ill I just accept that as their way of coping and I know that ultimately they love me so I am appreciative of that.
Just as when I am sick and some family members feel the need to get rolling drunk and feed their denial of my illness, whatever gets em through!
Ultimately I busy making my own deals with the universe futilely so it's good they do whatever it takes to make themselves happy. But I do understand that this is only what my wishes and beliefs are.
I guess the most important thing is to be respectful of the individual's wishes. So I know that you DO NOT WANT anyone praying for you, so I would not pray for you. But then I don't pray. But you see where I am going with this?
If you were sick I would ask you if there was anything that I could do to help you and I would let you know that I love and care for you and will support you anyway that you feel would help you. If that meant me leaving you the hell alone, I'd do that too.
........ she was a veggie but eats buffalo meat regularly now. my mum started eating buffalo meat last year. once she could get past it being buffalo........
Sorry ols, completely off thread, but I guess we're talking cooked here and not carpaccio???
And that's completely fair enough cate.
I have had people pray for me that I would prefer didn't. But then I realized I would mostly prefered that they just buggered off and left me alone anyway. It wasn't the praying I objected to it was them. Least that's what I realized.
Now if someone I love, and care for, who cares for me, feels the need to pray when I am ill I just accept that as their way of coping and I know that ultimately they love me so I am appreciative of that.
Just as when I am sick and some family members feel the need to get rolling drunk and feed their denial of my illness, whatever gets em through!
Ultimately I busy making my own deals with the universe futilely so it's good they do whatever it takes to make themselves happy. But I do understand that this is only what my wishes and beliefs are.
I guess the most important thing is to be respectful of the individual's wishes. So I know that you DO NOT WANT anyone praying for you, so I would not pray for you. But then I don't pray. But you see where I am going with this?
If you were sick I would ask you if there was anything that I could do to help you and I would let you know that I love and care for you and will support you anyway that you feel would help you. If that meant me leaving you the hell alone, I'd do that too.
i can't control people. they have the free will (hi ryan! ) to do as they please.all i ask is that i not be prayed over. if someone feels an overwhelming urge to pray then i can't do anything about it. in that case, i ask that i simply not be told. my natural reaction to someone who says, i prayed for you, is to tell them to fuck off.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You have proclaimed the answer... water from Lourdes and parayer cures cancer.
I'm asking, Why don't all cancer victims flock to Lourdes? and does every one that take the water get cured? If not, why not? Are they not worthy of living?
Many people do go to Lourdes Cosmo and some of them are cured.
Just as many people turn to dietary changes and all kinds of alternative therapies when they are ill. People who are ill are the ones in control of their treatment. They are the ones that have to make the choices. And surely whatever choice they make is the right one for them?
I don't think if they are not cured that they are not "worthy".
They just aren't cured. Perhaps another avenue might cure them, perhaps not. Treatment and cure are individual things. I suspect that OLS is simply pointing out that in some cases your belief can affect your outcome. Not sure this is miraculous but it does appear that sometimes belief can impact on outcome.
i can't control people. they have the free will (hi ryan! ) to do as they please.all i ask is that i not be prayed over. if someone feels an overwhelming urge to pray then i can't do anything about it. in that case, i ask that i simply not be told. my natural reaction to someone who says, i prayed for you, is to tell them to fuck off.
And I think that's a perfectly reasonable avenue to take cate.
And a considerate, respectful person of any belief should acquiesce to your wishes and beliefs.
of course it's reasonable. i am a very reasonable person. perfectly so, even. LMAO!!
i don't know. although i'd respect your wishes and not pray out loud; i don't think you'd deny me my comfort. if you feel you are not worthy of love; just say so. that is my way of showing love; in that type of situation that is.
i don't know. although i'd respect your wishes and not pray out loud; i don't think you'd deny me my comfort. if you feel you are not worthy of love; just say so. that is my way of showing love; in that type of situation that is.
hmmm......I have an overwhelming urge to be naughty here, BUT I'll be good and say nothing!!!
i don't know. although i'd respect your wishes and not pray out loud; i don't think you'd deny me my comfort. if you feel you are not worthy of love; just say so. that is my way of showing love; in that type of situation that is.
did i say i was not worthy of love? yes sure do whatever floats your boat or gives you comfort. but DO NOT be coming to me and telling me you felt the need to pray for me so you could find comfort. it gives me no comfort, therefore i don't want to know. i don't need to know.
and just curiously, why would you tell someone you prayed for them anyway?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.
No, no, no, that's not what I was saying. I should have clarified ... there is no evidence whatsoever that the prayers of others do anything at all for the person who is sick. I don't concern myself much with what others do, so if their prayers are helping them, they should by all means have at it. I don't care if others pray for me, if it makes them happy, but they should be clear that they're doing it for themselves and not for me. It's sort of like if someone were to give me a violin for my birthday ... ok, this is lovely, but you know I don't play the violin, so why are you giving this to me? It's just odd and a bit awkward when people tell me they're doing it. It puts me in the position of having to be either rude or insincere, which I quite dislike.
It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).
get the idea?
Your "study" of one person isn't a study at all, it's an anecdote. Scientific studies of the sort that are published in peer-reviewed professional journals do indeed have controls, and study large groups over long periods.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
similar cases were discussed in the american medical journal. i believe december 2005. doctors are prescribing patients to eat buffalo meat all over the country. researchers are trying to isolate the compound that destroys the cancer. thanks to the chemical companies; you cannot claim a cure until you can precisely measure dosage. that's the law. so until the compound is isolated; and an exact dosage can be established; millions will die from cancer. this is why natural products cannot be advertised and medicines.
Surely you don't think this is a bad thing? You can't claim a cure until you can PROVE that it's a CURE ... that sounds quite reasonable to me. Without that requirement, anyone could gather a bit of anecdotal evidence about anything at all and start marketing it as a cure, and desperate dying people would waste their money on it. There is enough of that going on already, for everything from weight loss aids to miracle cancer cures ... anything that can be done to prevent more of it is a good thing.
I don't deny that pharmaceutical companies benefit from these rules, but there are other good reasons to have the rules in place.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.
i DO, and you know it damn well. That doesn't mean i am going to sit back and let non-christians make broad brushstroke generalizations about Christians and Christianity and not call THEM on it as well.
Furthermore, it is one thing for Christians such as MLK or myself to call Christians on some of their behavior. It is something altogether different for a non-Christian to point out shortcomings of Christians in an attempt to discredit their faith. i have no problems with other Christians pointing it out to me when i may be stumbling in my "Christian walk", i have a bit of a problem with non-Christians doing it and making prejudicial judgements of a faith they don't share and know very little about. Its different.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Your "study" of one person isn't a study at all, it's an anecdote. Scientific studies of the sort that are published in peer-reviewed professional journals do indeed have controls, and study large groups over long periods.
Correct !!!!!!!!!!
Practitioners who sell phoney cures to people with cancer are conscienceless parasites preying on desperation !!!!!!!!
Comments
i don't know.
Dying of poisonous gasses in the darkness of a fricken' coal mine... yeah, that's bad. So, is dying a long and protracted... painful death from cancer... yeah, I classify it as bad, too.
We all want a peaceful death, religious or not... where we go to bed one night, after a long and rewarding lifetime, and simply do not wake up. But, that ain't always the way it goes down. People die horrible deaths... like slipping into a wood chipper, tumbling down a flight of stairs, mangled up in a crushed automobile, heart attacks while sitting on the can with your pants around your ankles, drawing your last breaths in the filthy gutter after being struck by a car... no one want to die this way. And what about the 7 year old girl that is killed after being raped by some pedophile psycho... is her death greater than her survival? Religious people welcome that? No. They welcome the going to sleep and not waking up. If you accept death so easily, you accept all the manners in which we die... not just the one way we want to go out of this place.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with that statement mostly.
Which is why we have mechanics.
Or why other people may have a greater knowledge of some topics than we ourselves.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I'm asking, Why don't all cancer victims flock to Lourdes? and does every one that take the water get cured? If not, why not? Are they not worthy of living?
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't know what you would think if you were ill. And I wasn't trying to tell you that I would know. :rolleyes: You do seem to have a reading comprehension problem with my posts. Or perhaps it's just that you doubt my intentions.
Whatever, I was simply pointing out that when people are ill they usually have far too much on their mind to be worrying about what those around them are thinking or feeling. And even when they do have an understanding, usually have far too much thinking of their own to be trying to police the thoughts and feelings of others.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
everyone can go.
But... they don't know, right? If what you say is true, why isn't it broadcast throughout the massive network of Cancer Treatments?
Hail, Hail!!!
And that's completely fair enough cate.
I have had people pray for me that I would prefer didn't. But then I realized I would mostly prefered that they just buggered off and left me alone anyway.
Now if someone I love, and care for, who cares for me, feels the need to pray when I am ill I just accept that as their way of coping and I know that ultimately they love me so I am appreciative of that.
Just as when I am sick and some family members feel the need to get rolling drunk and feed their denial of my illness, whatever gets em through!
Ultimately I busy making my own deals with the universe futilely so it's good they do whatever it takes to make themselves happy. But I do understand that this is only what my wishes and beliefs are.
I guess the most important thing is to be respectful of the individual's wishes. So I know that you DO NOT WANT anyone praying for you, so I would not pray for you. But then I don't pray. But you see where I am going with this?
If you were sick I would ask you if there was anything that I could do to help you and I would let you know that I love and care for you and will support you anyway that you feel would help you. If that meant me leaving you the hell alone, I'd do that too.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I would say given the morbid obesity, that she has some severe hormonal problems which lead to aggression and she channels this using religion.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
So many things, from so many cultures that are not utulized by modern science.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
COOKED :eek:
i can't control people. they have the free will (hi ryan!
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Many people do go to Lourdes Cosmo and some of them are cured.
Just as many people turn to dietary changes and all kinds of alternative therapies when they are ill. People who are ill are the ones in control of their treatment. They are the ones that have to make the choices. And surely whatever choice they make is the right one for them?
I don't think if they are not cured that they are not "worthy".
They just aren't cured. Perhaps another avenue might cure them, perhaps not. Treatment and cure are individual things. I suspect that OLS is simply pointing out that in some cases your belief can affect your outcome. Not sure this is miraculous but it does appear that sometimes belief can impact on outcome.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
hehe!!
carpaccio is delicious!! as is stinky cheese!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
And I think that's a perfectly reasonable avenue to take cate.
And a considerate, respectful person of any belief should acquiesce to your wishes and beliefs.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
of course it's reasonable. i am a very reasonable person. perfectly so, even.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i don't know. although i'd respect your wishes and not pray out loud; i don't think you'd deny me my comfort. if you feel you are not worthy of love; just say so. that is my way of showing love; in that type of situation that is.
Yes. You are that cate!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
hmmm......I have an overwhelming urge to be naughty here, BUT I'll be good and say nothing!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
YOU'RE A GIRLY!
SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
did i say i was not worthy of love? yes sure do whatever floats your boat or gives you comfort. but DO NOT be coming to me and telling me you felt the need to pray for me so you could find comfort. it gives me no comfort, therefore i don't want to know. i don't need to know.
and just curiously, why would you tell someone you prayed for them anyway?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.
I don't deny that pharmaceutical companies benefit from these rules, but there are other good reasons to have the rules in place.
i DO, and you know it damn well. That doesn't mean i am going to sit back and let non-christians make broad brushstroke generalizations about Christians and Christianity and not call THEM on it as well.
Furthermore, it is one thing for Christians such as MLK or myself to call Christians on some of their behavior. It is something altogether different for a non-Christian to point out shortcomings of Christians in an attempt to discredit their faith. i have no problems with other Christians pointing it out to me when i may be stumbling in my "Christian walk", i have a bit of a problem with non-Christians doing it and making prejudicial judgements of a faith they don't share and know very little about. Its different.
Correct !!!!!!!!!!
Practitioners who sell phoney cures to people with cancer are conscienceless parasites preying on desperation !!!!!!!!