well, okay... i don't see how a hostile homosexual could ever make it anywhere in the world. i don't think this was mlk's message. his message was more about protesting peacefully. your doctrines would probably resemble Malcolm X doctrines a little better. but anyways...
the difference between an irish mafia and a mexican mafia is the irish mafia will say alot to scare you but the mexican mafia don't have to say much to scare you
oh by the way. your last comment you said about not reading the arguments because it's necessary and all, well actually i never did read them so i'm not really sure what's going on. haha would you figure that?
what doctrines am i advocating that are not peaceful? what am i advocating that is so reminiscent of malcolm x?
I'm an anti-theist. I attack religion. I also attack free-will.
Because I 'know' that these two percepts affect the way people view each other and interact and it makes for the vicious societies we live in.
People can disagree with me and I will recognize why they disagree with me. But I won't just shut up about it and I wouldn't expect anyone to shut up about their opinions either.
On the other hand, I would like rational debate instead of opinionated debate.
E.g. God and Free-will defy the laws of science and everything else we know. Regardless of what I believe, the truth is incontrovertible and exists independent of anyone's will. To have rational debate we really need to meet in the middle and try to look at it without ego and without opinions.
So let us assume that none of us have ever heard of God and ask the questions "What is God?" "Is it probable?" "What is the evidence for and against it?"
I feel the problem people are having here is not being able to ask these questions without becoming so emotionally involved that they block any objection to their 'opinions' and ignore evidence.
I honestly think that it's largely the die-hard Christians that attribute to the hostile atmosphere. Unfortunately God cannot be argued logically, so that wraps up the debate pretty quick. I've yet to hear a Christian tackle this topic rationally without emotional investment. Rational atheists are few and far between as well.
Let's discuss, but first let's set a proof that would suffice us all. Let us define what proof we are looking for. Does a description of a cat mean that the cat really exists? I would say no. So then we must find some other evidence for it, either by measuring it or consistently predicting the results. Believers seem to be set in irrational thought and unwilling to tackle the debate in this way, so ultimately it's a worthless topic. If anyone is looking for confirmation that atheism is right, then that's a different story.
i love this. utterly hilarious. "people need to come to this debate with no ego and an open mind." then you promptly add that there is no possible answer but the one you offer. only you can pull this off my friend.
"poor wittle Christian feelings?!" Doctor King was, before anything else, a CHRISTIAN?! You may not want to accept that because it hurts your poor wittle "i hate Christians" feelings, and sticks a huge fork in your bullshit "Christians are all hateful, violent warmongers" bullshit philosophy, but it is undeniable truth. Maybe YOU should go back and read, or perhaps, re-read "letter from a birmingham jail" or countless other pieces. Christianity was at the forefront of his philosophy and teachings. One of ther greatest, most loving, peaceful men this country has ever known was very much a CHRISTIAN. Deal with it.
im well aware that he was a christian. im also well aware that when his fellow christians were sitting on their asses turning a blind eye to the horrific abuses their parishioners were perpetrating against their fellow men, he stood up and called them on it, shouting at them to step up to the plate and live like jesus did. he did not keep quiet about their hypocrisy and injustice for the sake of avoiding an argument that might annoy his fellow christians who didnt want their guilt and complicity thrown back in their faces. he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.
im well aware that he was a christian. im also well aware that when his fellow christians were sitting on their asses turning a blind eye to the horrific abuses their parishioners were perpetrating against their fellow men, he stood up and called them on it, shouting at them to step up to the plate and live like jesus did. he did not keep quiet about their hypocrisy and injustice for the sake of avoiding an argument that might annoy his fellow christians who didnt want their guilt and complicity thrown back in their faces. he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.
Good point...
Maybe instead of bothering atheists it might be better for christians to confront each other with Christ's teachings.
i love this. utterly hilarious. "people need to come to this debate with no ego and an open mind." then you promptly add that there is no possible answer but the one you offer. only you can pull this off my friend.
"only you can pull this off my friend"? or "only you are pulling yourself off my friend"?
I can only speak for myself... but, i don't need sympathy from some Human looking to satisfy his own selfish desire to save me. Don't pray for me... I don't need you call upon your god to save me... you're not doing me any good because you probably don't know a damn thing about me.
Now, if you need others to pray for you... fine. Just don't expect me to pretend I know what you are going through, because, truthfully... I haven't got a clue. And I know I cannot channel God to assist you. I will help you with what I can, as one human to another... but, i'm pretty sure my prayers won't do shit except make me feel better about myself. You will probably want to make amends with your god... yourself.
Don't get me wrong... I believe in Human kindness and caring... that comes from the human heart... but, don't pretend you are sending God to help me. If I'm in trouble... there a good chance that He probably already knows it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I can only speak for myself... but, i don't need sympathy from some Human looking to satisfy his own selfish desire to save me. Don't pray for me... I don't need you call upon your god to save me... you're not doing me any good because you probably don't know a damn thing about me.
Now, if you need others to pray for you... fine. Just don't expect me to pretend I know what you are going through, because, truthfully... I haven't got a clue. And I know I cannot channel God to assist you. I will help you with what I can, as one human to another... but, i'm pretty sure my prayers won't do shit except make me feel better about myself. You will probably want to make amends with your god... yourself.
Don't get me wrong... I believe in Human kindness and caring... that comes from the human heart... but, don't pretend you are sending God to help me. If I'm in trouble... there a good chance that He probably already knows it.
Hi Cosmo.
Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.
Maybe instead of bothering atheists it might be better for christians to confront each other with Christ's teachings.
this is the essense of the thread. i've never; EVER known anyone of religion to try to convert any atheist nor to preach to them. the exception being ahnimus when HE WENT INTO A BLOODY CHURCH which is where preaching is done. i've never seen a person of religion here; attack an atheist without first being invited into the conversation; ie: responding to a comment. the only exception being the mormans. i detest how they go house to house.
many true christians have left the church. one of my favourite steppenwolf songs is "from here to there eventually" and describes the church to a tee.
so the point of the thread is to point out how atheists come into threads about religion to "start trouble" to coin a phrase. i did not open the thread 10 REASONS AGAINST THEISM because i didn't agree with the subject matter. i don't open sports threads because i don't understand how someone can waste thier time when there's a whole world waiting to be discovered.
Hi Cosmo.
Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.
...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
this is the essense of the thread. i've never; EVER known anyone of religion to try to convert any atheist nor to preach to them. the exception being ahnimus when HE WENT INTO A BLOODY CHURCH which is where preaching is done. i've never seen a person of religion here; attack an atheist without first being invited into the conversation; ie: responding to a comment. the only exception being the mormans. i detest how they go house to house.
many true christians have left the church. one of my favourite steppenwolf songs is "from here to there eventually" and describes the church to a tee.
so the point of the thread is to point out how atheists come into threads about religion to "start trouble" to coin a phrase. i did not open the thread 10 REASONS AGAINST THEISM because i didn't agree with the subject matter. i don't open sports threads because i don't understand how someone can waste thier time when there's a whole world waiting to be discovered.
clearly you've never seen ohio state play football that's why i stopped going to church... i found a new religion
...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.
i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?
i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?
That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.
You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
...
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.
Well I would agree with the last statement!
Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!! Anybody that isn't being respectful of me or my beliefs.
Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!! Anybody that isn't being respectful of me or my beliefs.
I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.
You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.
why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.
I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.
and that is where faith comes in. and respect for others beliefs.
if we did a poll here; nobody cares what you believe or why you believe it. look at the responses you get. you're basically preaching to yourself and TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF that you are right.
why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.
Doctors do agree with me.
Doctors can give patients a placebo by telling them that they will be ok. But the placebo effect is a lot like no effect, it's not a very potent thing. Certainly not enough to warrant prayer, and you can reference one study that shows positive effects of prayer and I will show you 17 studies that show negative effects of prayer.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.
It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.
You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.
Well frankly if I needed help and convential medicine couldn't supply it then I'd try whatever else that I felt might help. Particularly if it couldn't do any harm. And I'd have no problem with others doing the same.
I'm quite sure that if you are "cured" or are better able to maintain an illness or are "given another chance" after being written off by doctors because you did try alternatives and they worked, you'd hardly consider it circumstantial.
Studies are great, and if the "prove" overall that faith does "buttkiss" fine, but I'm sure the individual couldn't give a fat rats arse about studies if they do have success with alternate "treatments".
and that is where faith comes in. and respect for others beliefs.
if we did a poll here; nobody cares what you believe or why you believe it. look at the responses you get. you're basically preaching to yourself and TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF that you are right.
Nobody cares what anyone else believes insofar as it doesn't affect them. But your beliefs to affect me and so I care.
Faith is the most irrational thing you can do. According to Jesus, Logos is the word. Logos translated from greek is Logic, Reason, Rationalization. Faith is in direct contradiction with Logos. The whole bible is in contradiction with it's self, and faith is required to blind yourself of rational thought. You become a robot, a servant of doctrine.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.
That's great Ahnimus and clearly it gives you what you need.
I'm not having any problems interacting with friends or their beliefs but I'll be sure to keep your advice in mind should I need it.
Well frankly if I needed help and convential medicine couldn't supply it then I'd try whatever else that I felt might help. Particularly if it couldn't do any harm. And I'd have no problem with others doing the same.
I'm quite sure that if you are "cured" or are better able to maintain an illness or are "given another chance" after being written off by doctors because you did try alternatives and they worked, you'd hardly consider it circumstantial.
Studies are great, and if the "prove" overall that faith does "buttkiss" fine, but I'm sure the individual couldn't give a fat rats arse about studies if they do have success with alternate "treatments".
Right, because they are self-focused and ignore objective reality.
If I give you some regular water and say "by the light of God let ye be healed" then 3 months later you are ok, who the fuck knows that the water healed you? If you die anyway, then you won't know the difference and I can just say "It wasn't in God's will". All of this bullshit is designed to convince you that it's God's will when it has nothing to do with it. It's just that you don't see the trickery.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Doctors can give patients a placebo by telling them that they will be ok. But the placebo effect is a lot like no effect, it's not a very potent thing. Certainly not enough to warrant prayer, and you can reference one study that shows positive effects of prayer and I will show you 17 studies that show negative effects of prayer.
I realize this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, because you don't believe we are all unique. Clearly you have all the evidence you need to support your theories and that's great. Prayer or your mind will not be healing you any time soon should you need it to. Although you wouldn't ask it to so its a moot point. But other people have had success because they don't "believe" fervently in the studies as you do and because they are individuals that know themselves well and utilize whatever tool that they believe will help them. In other words they have decided what works for them. How this impacts you I don't really understand.
I realize this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, because you don't believe we are all unique. Clearly you have all the evidence you need to support your theories and that's great. Prayer or your mind will not be healing you any time soon should you need it to. Although you wouldn't ask it to so its a moot point. But other people have had success because they don't "believe" fervently in the studies as you do and because they are individuals that know themselves well and utilize whatever tool that they believe will help them. In other words they have decided what works for them. How this impacts you I don't really understand.
Those other people are fooling themselves.
I really don't care what you experience. Aliens, Loch Ness Monster, OBE, NDE, Bigfoot/Sasquatch, etc.. it's all subjective claims, it's crapola, means nothing, it's pointless to bring these claims to a debate because you can't prove them.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Am I the only person that finds this statement ironic coming from you?
btw Jeanie, I have a theory that supports evidence, not the other way around.
It's not ironic, I am a robot, but I'm not blindly following the doctrine of some ancient sun worshippers. I'm a free-thinker, I take in knowledge, perform rational deliberations on it and output ideas.
For example, I can say "Well there are 1500 species that have homosexuality in it and decent theories as to why that might be." why should I deny that or think like "Homosexuality is a choice, it's a sin, burn all the fags."
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.
Hi mom.
When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.
When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.
Well if you buy the results of 17 such studies, it actually has adverse affects on the patient. But again these aren't extreme effects. Simply telling someone that you will pray for them, statistically causes slightly more difficulty, but either way it's nothing to get excited about.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
It's certainly true that your mind can affect your body ... your OWN mind that is. I think what Ahnimus is referring to are studies that have shown, repeatedly, that the prayers of others don't do squat.
the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).
Comments
what doctrines am i advocating that are not peaceful? what am i advocating that is so reminiscent of malcolm x?
i love this. utterly hilarious. "people need to come to this debate with no ego and an open mind." then you promptly add that there is no possible answer but the one you offer. only you can pull this off my friend.
im well aware that he was a christian. im also well aware that when his fellow christians were sitting on their asses turning a blind eye to the horrific abuses their parishioners were perpetrating against their fellow men, he stood up and called them on it, shouting at them to step up to the plate and live like jesus did. he did not keep quiet about their hypocrisy and injustice for the sake of avoiding an argument that might annoy his fellow christians who didnt want their guilt and complicity thrown back in their faces. he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.
Good point...
Maybe instead of bothering atheists it might be better for christians to confront each other with Christ's teachings.
naděje umírá poslední
"only you can pull this off my friend"? or "only you are pulling yourself off my friend"?
just wondering aloud.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Now, if you need others to pray for you... fine. Just don't expect me to pretend I know what you are going through, because, truthfully... I haven't got a clue. And I know I cannot channel God to assist you. I will help you with what I can, as one human to another... but, i'm pretty sure my prayers won't do shit except make me feel better about myself. You will probably want to make amends with your god... yourself.
Don't get me wrong... I believe in Human kindness and caring... that comes from the human heart... but, don't pretend you are sending God to help me. If I'm in trouble... there a good chance that He probably already knows it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Hi Cosmo.
Just if you could answer a couple of quick question please?
Do you have friends or family who are religious? And if so, do you find that as you care for them you are more likely to understand and accept their prayers in times of difficulty because you know that is a way for them to feel that they are helping you?
I'm just wondering.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
this is the essense of the thread. i've never; EVER known anyone of religion to try to convert any atheist nor to preach to them. the exception being ahnimus when HE WENT INTO A BLOODY CHURCH which is where preaching is done. i've never seen a person of religion here; attack an atheist without first being invited into the conversation; ie: responding to a comment. the only exception being the mormans. i detest how they go house to house.
many true christians have left the church. one of my favourite steppenwolf songs is "from here to there eventually" and describes the church to a tee.
so the point of the thread is to point out how atheists come into threads about religion to "start trouble" to coin a phrase. i did not open the thread 10 REASONS AGAINST THEISM because i didn't agree with the subject matter. i don't open sports threads because i don't understand how someone can waste thier time when there's a whole world waiting to be discovered.
Yes... I do. And I have a 'Born Again' brother that says he constantly 'prays for my soul'. And I tell him to save it for someone who really needs to be saved... like his own hypocritical ass.
The best way to help me... listen to me when I'm in pain, just as I listen to you... instead of telling you shouldn't have done or what you need to do or let you know I will summon my God to help you... when you are in pain. I know I can't fix you... all I can do is be there for you to help you fix yourself.
Sometimes... the best remedy for a downtrodden heart is an open ear and a shut mouth.
Hail, Hail!!!
clearly you've never seen ohio state play football
i gave some water from lourdes shrine to an old man dying of cancer. the doctors gave him 2 weeks but he lived another 15 years and died cancer free.
i did the same with my mother and sister and they survived cancer. faith has cured more people because of mindset. why deny people of this? when someone feels helpless seeing a friend suffer; sometimes all they have is prayer to fill the void. born agains get on my nerves with thier "holier than thou" attitudes too. but if you're in pain; and i truely want to help you but there's nothing i can do about it; why deny me my only way to show how much you mean to me?
That's circumstantial. Dozens of studies have shown that faith does buttkiss for hospital patients.
You can pray to a jug of milk and it will answer your prayers at the same success rate as God. Try it.
Yes, I don't know that I'd want to play with too many "Born Agains". :eek:
I guess I have no problem with people holding religious beliefs and I don't even mind discussing them with some people. Depends on the person I suppose. I've got quite a few friends of different religions and we seem to negotiate our friendship without our core beliefs being too much of an issue.
I guess anybody being "fervent" upsets me. So that would apply to religious fervour as well as an Amway salesmen!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I openly challenge my friends to challenge my beliefs. It's people that don't have solid beliefs that get upset over it. If you can't properly defend or explain why you believe what you do, then ask yourself if your beliefs are correct.
why don't doctors agree with you? when a person gives up mentally; no medicine will help them. on the other hand; many people are given placebos in these studies and have symptoms relieved. they don't receive medicine; they heal themselves with thier mind.
and that is where faith comes in. and respect for others beliefs.
if we did a poll here; nobody cares what you believe or why you believe it. look at the responses you get. you're basically preaching to yourself and TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF that you are right.
Doctors do agree with me.
Doctors can give patients a placebo by telling them that they will be ok. But the placebo effect is a lot like no effect, it's not a very potent thing. Certainly not enough to warrant prayer, and you can reference one study that shows positive effects of prayer and I will show you 17 studies that show negative effects of prayer.
Well frankly if I needed help and convential medicine couldn't supply it then I'd try whatever else that I felt might help. Particularly if it couldn't do any harm. And I'd have no problem with others doing the same.
I'm quite sure that if you are "cured" or are better able to maintain an illness or are "given another chance" after being written off by doctors because you did try alternatives and they worked, you'd hardly consider it circumstantial.
Studies are great, and if the "prove" overall that faith does "buttkiss" fine, but I'm sure the individual couldn't give a fat rats arse about studies if they do have success with alternate "treatments".
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Nobody cares what anyone else believes insofar as it doesn't affect them. But your beliefs to affect me and so I care.
Faith is the most irrational thing you can do. According to Jesus, Logos is the word. Logos translated from greek is Logic, Reason, Rationalization. Faith is in direct contradiction with Logos. The whole bible is in contradiction with it's self, and faith is required to blind yourself of rational thought. You become a robot, a servant of doctrine.
That's great Ahnimus and clearly it gives you what you need.
I'm not having any problems interacting with friends or their beliefs but I'll be sure to keep your advice in mind should I need it.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Right, because they are self-focused and ignore objective reality.
If I give you some regular water and say "by the light of God let ye be healed" then 3 months later you are ok, who the fuck knows that the water healed you? If you die anyway, then you won't know the difference and I can just say "It wasn't in God's will". All of this bullshit is designed to convince you that it's God's will when it has nothing to do with it. It's just that you don't see the trickery.
I realize this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, because you don't believe we are all unique. Clearly you have all the evidence you need to support your theories and that's great. Prayer or your mind will not be healing you any time soon should you need it to. Although you wouldn't ask it to so its a moot point. But other people have had success because they don't "believe" fervently in the studies as you do and because they are individuals that know themselves well and utilize whatever tool that they believe will help them. In other words they have decided what works for them. How this impacts you I don't really understand.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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buttkiss?!?!?!
hehehehehehe:D:D
Those other people are fooling themselves.
I really don't care what you experience. Aliens, Loch Ness Monster, OBE, NDE, Bigfoot/Sasquatch, etc.. it's all subjective claims, it's crapola, means nothing, it's pointless to bring these claims to a debate because you can't prove them.
Am I the only person that finds this statement ironic coming from you?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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btw Jeanie, I have a theory that supports evidence, not the other way around.
It's not ironic, I am a robot, but I'm not blindly following the doctrine of some ancient sun worshippers. I'm a free-thinker, I take in knowledge, perform rational deliberations on it and output ideas.
For example, I can say "Well there are 1500 species that have homosexuality in it and decent theories as to why that might be." why should I deny that or think like "Homosexuality is a choice, it's a sin, burn all the fags."
Hi mom.
When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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Well if you buy the results of 17 such studies, it actually has adverse affects on the patient. But again these aren't extreme effects. Simply telling someone that you will pray for them, statistically causes slightly more difficulty, but either way it's nothing to get excited about.
the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).
get the idea?